The wrong war

[canyontree]

Once again, we mobilize to fight the wrong enemy.

This will be the third time in a row we will be fighting the wrong Civ.

The second American war. Not really much of a conflict as the Aztecs did most of the fighting and got most of the cities. Once the Aztecs took Chicago, there really wasn't anything left to fight for.

The second French war. Well, we did this one ourselves and have no one to blame. Yes we were victorious, but what did we get?

A bunch of corrupt cities, a GA, and a GL who by the way still sits twiddeling his thumbs in Macross City.

I contend that we could have gotten both the GA and the GL against a more suitable oponent. An opponent that had something techwise to offer at the negotiating table.

And now Zululand. This will be a long campaign just because of logistics. They have no techs, but do have Gems. It's better than the big fat nothing we have gotten out of our last two campaigns.

Unfortunately, we will be distracted from our real objectives and opponents for quite some time.

Operation Reiseling as originally planned is now doa. It's narrow window for execution will be long closed by the time we return from Zululand.

Operation Staging Point, as a resource denial strategy is similarly doa. Railroading doubles the explorer count needed.

But Operation staging point as a platform for bombarding Stuttgart and Frankfurt on D-Turn is still viable. We will just need significantly more Artillery than the administration has asked for.

[Kloreep]

I agree the Zulu's time has not yet come. We must never forget this, and someday those gems will be ours. But we must press on against the target of our choosing: Germany.

[E_T]

Shaka is a knat, he has 3 ships but only lands 2 Impi. They both die quick deaths. The other two ships are milling around and haven't done anything. Uber Island is defended.

Shaka will have to pay us his Gems at a very reduced Price for renewed peace in a few turns. But this should not deture us in our goal to take Otto down a few notches.

When we are ready, we WILL show Shaka how to run a Naval Invasion. He will only have a very short time afterwards to comprehend his mistake.

Besides, Otto can build an Iron Works In Hamburg, if we let him (yes, it has both Iron & Coal, as does Heliopolis).

E_T

[Shiber]

Canyontree, IMHO you are absolutely wrong.
The war with the Zulu can wait forever. The war with Germany will be much more difficult if we wait until Germany has railroads all over their empire and an army of panzers. As for the purpose of the war, the main objectives are to eliminate an opponent before it gets too strong and to eliminate one rival in the science arena, in which we are nowhere near as strong as we are in the military and territorial arenas.
A strong leader needs to dominate every aspect of the game - military, territory, resources, science, culture and wonders. So far we've completely dominated three aspects of the game and are close to dominating the cultural aspect of the game. Launching a war or taking any other means of controlling the science aspect of the game is only logical.
As for Khufu, our great leader, for your information we've voted on using him for an army. As far as I understand we're planning on building an army with this leader several turns before D-turn.

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by canyontree
The second American war. Not really much of a conflict as the Aztecs did most of the fighting and got most of the cities. Once the Aztecs took Chicago, there really wasn't anything left to fight for.

Bah. Getting New York gave us an extra Saltpeter resource. We were able to connect it a few turns quicker than the GeoFront Saltpeter too.

[canyontree]

How I wish Shaka could wait, but the way war weariness is determined, I fear that it cannot. (Unless you just want to reward Shaka furthur by signing a peace treaty at first opportunity.)

[Kloreep]

Originally posted by canyontree
How I wish Shaka could wait, but the way war weariness is determined, I fear that it cannot. (Unless you just want to reward Shaka furthur by signing a peace treaty at first opportunity.)

Why not sign peace? So long as he grovels appropriately, we should let him think he's off the hook; then, after Germany's demise, sweep in and wipe the Zulus out.

[canyontree]

Unless we threaten his homeland, he will insist on reparations.

[Panzer32]

Personally, I think paying reparations is worth sticking to original plan and going after Germany. It is NOT worth the war weariness/difficulty/delayment of invasion of Germany to invade the Zulus at this particular moment.

[E_T]

I whole heartedly agree! We keep to the plan of Germany, then England, then we liberate the Gems from Zululand. By that time, we should have the Palace moved and can work on Greece.

E_T

[MrWhereItsAt]

Shaka... attacked with.... 2 Impis...... Oh.... My...

/me dissolves into fits of breathless laughter.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by canyontree
Unless we threaten his homeland, he will insist on reparations.

Perhaps we should send some empty caravels to Shaka's coast. The more units (even empty caravels) we have within the Zulu borders, the greater power we will have at the bargaining table.

[E_T]

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
Shaka... attacked with.... 2 Impis...... Oh.... My...

* MrWhereItsAt dissolves into fits of breathless laughter.

* E_T joins MrWIA in with heartfelt laughter.

E_T

[adaMada]

Well, I just typed this up to start a thread based on the issue , and then realized that this one covers the topic well enough . Having said that, here’s my neutral first post (that would have gone in it’s own thread)

The issue is quite simple. Should we:
1) Get peace with Zululand, go to war with Germany as soon as is possible
2) Try to carry on a war with both Zululand and Germany at the same time
3) Continue the war with Zululand, delay War with Germany if necessary.
4) Go to war with no one. (Don’t think this one’s gonna be that popular )

Some issues to consider:
* Zululand is on an island; attacking it will require naval support we do not currently have.
* Zululand has a monopoly on Gems.
* Germany is the greater threat over time
* We’ve lost a good deal of our income (over 40 gpt!) from this Zulu war – we may have to compensate somehow
* Any cities we take from the Zulus will be riddled with Corruption. Germany is much closer to our capital and FP.
* We will need to build our military if we take any of the first three options – which we take won’t affect our actions much, except perhaps diplomatically and in moving units to the front.
* Straka may not give us peace without making us pay a price (until we threaten his homeland)

Relevant threads:
* http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69355]Senate Foreign Affairs Cmte.: Diplomatic Responses to the Zulu Conflict[/url]
* http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67678]War Academy:Zululand objectives[/url]
* http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68917]German campaign::: goal[/url]
* http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69128]11/27 Chat Starting Shortly[/url]
* http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69205]SMC Business[/url]
* The wrong war

This is a very important issue. We must find the right balance between eliminating Germany, taking the Gems, and building our economy. We can’t do everything at once – so we must pick what will come first. Let’s at least think through ALL the decisions before we jump to a conclusion without discussion.

-- adaMada
Acting Vice-Vice President

[Kloreep]

I don't want a two front war, and certainly not one involving Germany. We should go for 1, and conquer the Germans ASAP. We can then give the Zulu our undivided attention.

Edit: Aggie theorized we might be able to strike the Zulu and capture some cities, and then ferry some forces back in time for the war with Germany. I don't know how feasible this is, but if it's possible, I would support striking the Zulus first (I doubt we would be able to actually wipe them out in a matter of turns).

[E_T]

Not feasable, not without a lot of expensive Mil Unit Rushing (one turn rushes) and Harbor Rushing.

ONLY IF We were ready to load troops on boats this very turn, could we possibly pull it off. We aren't.

One of the things about the buildup towards the War with Germany, is that our Invasion forces are on the same land as our Nation. So, If we do end up fighting more than one nation, when we are fighting Otto, we don't have to wait a while for our Expeditionary Force to return from across the seas.

While we fight Otto, and when we go for Liz afterwards (giving us 3-4 more Wonders total), we can get our Expeditionary Force together and even have it ready to sail. We could even have it on the water by the time we are wrapping up with Liz.

So the Answer is to make peace for now, then get Otto & Liz, THEN go for Shaka.

E_T

[Panzer32]

Yes, get the Germans as planned, then the English. Then I support going to war with the gem-hogging Aztecs.

[adaMada]

Do you guys think it's worth paying to free ourselves of the Aztec war?

Myself, from a different thread:

Do you think it's worth paying to end the war now (so we can focus on Germany), should Straka prove to be as hardheaded as he is stupid? Remember, we have no military units in the area, and (unless Shiber's bluff proves to have merit), we might not be able to get peace until the war's hurting him, through curruption or whatever else.

-- adaMada

[E_T]

Why should we? Shaka will have to be paying us. He's not playing "Counting Coup" or at least we aren't.

E_T

[Panzer32]

Originally posted by adaMada
Do you guys think it's worth paying to free ourselves of the Aztec war?

Yes, I do think it is worth paying some. (not too much of course, maybe equivalent to a tech or something...)

[E_T]

All of the Cives have been paying us for Peace for years beyond count now, WHY should one Cive be different. I really don't know if we have hit our Maximum cash value for a Civ to Pay us for maintaining peace, but it we have, it's measured in >10 LPT (over 180 cash).

WHy would a couple of non bombardment capable boats make that any different? We will get money from Him, unless he's completely broke. We should not have to pay for peace.

E_T

[Kloreep]

I'm with E_T. Shaka knows he's outmatched. I don't have any idea how much we can extract from him, but we won't have to pay him. And he's gotten a lot of money from us already by nullifying so many LPT deals, too. If nothing else, he can give some of that back.

[OPD]

A monopoly on gems is worth more than ten german cities. With the money we could make we'll be able to fund a german war a lot better.

Not that it really matters anyway it's not as if theres a chance in hell of us loosing now.

[Shiber]

The thing is, we want to attack Germany before they get infantry and Panzers.

[GodKing]

World War.

Just take them both on.