useless spies

djafrot · November 29, 2002, 06:02

Why can't I ever get a spy in another civ's capital? I've tried a hundred times with the same "your spy was captured. Captain Kangaroo is not pleased" (of course, he or she never does anything).

Ijuin · November 29, 2002, 07:37

Well, first of all, you are only allowed to try to plant a spy in a specific Civ once per turn--if it fails the first time, then all subsequent attempts during that turn will also fail.

Tiberius · November 29, 2002, 07:41

However, planting a spy in a different civ can be successful, even if it has failed for the previous civ.

WarpStorm · November 29, 2002, 09:29

In fact, they automatic failure goes on past the turn you failed.

Quote:

NOTE: If you fail a spy mission, you will automatically fail any spy mission against that same civilization for next 2-4 turns.

Minmaster · November 29, 2002, 09:34

WHERE did u find that info wasp?

fittstim · November 29, 2002, 10:39

Quote:

Originally posted by WarpStorm
In fact, they automatic failure goes on past the turn you failed.

Hmmm. I'm not 100% sure but almost 99.99% sure that this information is incorrect.

It is correct that if you fail in your attempt to implant a spy, you can not implant another spy IN THAT SAME CIV during the same turn. However, you can try your luck with the next civ on the list with a normal chance.

WarpStorm · November 29, 2002, 11:21

The quote is from the readme.txt file

wilbill · November 29, 2002, 12:20

Quote:

Originally posted by djafrot
Why can't I ever get a spy in another civ's capital? I've tried a hundred times with the same "your spy was captured. Captain Kangaroo is not pleased" (of course, he or she never does anything).

And don't count on them not doing anything. If the AI civ is displeased with you, your diplomatic/trade relations are poor, and it estimates it has a decent chance of winning, failing to plant a spy can cause him to declare war on you.

Eli · November 29, 2002, 12:34

So the Espionage system is still screwed up?

WarpStorm · November 29, 2002, 13:42

No, the espionage system works fine. My only gripe is that the default prices are too high, but that's what the editor is for.

Mad Bomber · November 29, 2002, 17:43

Warpstorm:

What value changes do you like to change with the editor to make spy missions more affordable? I have messed around with this some but not with much success. One change that I have found useful is to allow stealing world maps in the embassy espionage options.

WarpStorm · November 29, 2002, 18:31

It depends on how much espionage action you want in the game. If the price is too low the AI will be doing it all the time. I find lowering the pirce of everything across the board by half is a good start in the right direction. I like lowering the price of steal tech even more.

player1 · November 29, 2002, 19:07

I had steal tech mission lowered to 50-70% in my ownm MOD.

But later, I returned it to nomal cost.

Simple, modern age steal-tech becomes way to much exploitable (much, much cheaper then buying). Even with standard mission cost.

One the other hand, with standard cost steal in medivial era is just not worth it.
SO it's double edged sword.

If only I could lower its price in ancient and medivial era only.

Coracle · November 30, 2002, 00:31

Quote:

Originally posted by WarpStorm
No, the espionage system works fine. My only gripe is that the default prices are too high, but that's what the editor is for.

Exactly why do we have to edit so much of the game because Firaxis got it wrong owing to not enough playtesting??

I have spent many hours just editing their non-historical unit values.

Espionage has always been good for one thing - getting other civs mad enough to declare war on you.

One of the most annoying aspects of Espionage is when you look for a mole and don't find one. It always causes an incident as all the game does is say it "failed". It has always been screwed up.

Theseus · November 30, 2002, 00:50

Tonight, I planted spies with 3 civs (got caught on the 4th but didn't care), stole 2 techs, and checked troop positions of my biggest enemy, all on one turn.

Uh, what's broken again?

Jaholt · November 30, 2002, 14:10

Spying was one of the biggest pleasures in Civ2. This has been seriously messed up in Civ3.
Bring back the spy & diplomat units!!

Mad Bomber · December 1, 2002, 05:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Jaholt
Spying was one of the biggest pleasures in Civ2. This has been seriously messed up in Civ3.
Bring back the spy & diplomat units!!

Getting rid of the spies and diplomats was a blessing and one of the things that firaxis got right. The only real use I had for them was to bribe enemy units, as bribing them in foreign lands would give them to you for free. However I would like to see the "poison water supply" and "plant nuclear device" options in the new espionage options.

Alex · December 1, 2002, 08:39

I thought that Firaxis had fixed the espionage costs in ptw... seems like they didn't. Oh well. Let's go to the editor, then.

theNiceOne · December 2, 2002, 08:54

I believe a lot of espionage cost complaints come from people who simply haven't learn't how to use espionage effectively. I am not among those who master espionage (I have never tried to steal a tech yet), but before you start to bash the espionage cost you should look at a few games that have actually used it.

I have fond memories of one of the deity succession games on CFC where the players had a crappy start and was the underdog for the entire game. However, much due to stealing of techs they managed to catch up just in time to steal the spce ship victory.

In that game, espionage was the tool that secured the victory in an almost hopeless game. So don't bash espionage until you have at least read how great players can use it.

Alex · December 2, 2002, 09:47

I know that great players can make good use of espionage; the problem is to strike a balance wrt its cost. If it is too high, the AI will rarely use it, because it simply doesn't have the money; if it is too low, then the AI will use it all the time, as was pointed out by Warp, thereby destroying the adequate balance between war and covert operations.

player1 · December 2, 2002, 17:22

Actually.

Stael tech cost is expensive in ancient and middle age era, then usefull in late industrail are, and at the CHEAP in modern ear.

Of course, the key is stealing techs which only one civ has.

Since otherwise they would be cheap to buy anyway.

Brutus66 · December 2, 2002, 20:19

Just seems to me that I usually fail when trying to plant a spy, and when I do the opposing country doesn't hesitate any to declare war.
It's not very realistic- if the US and USSR declared war over such things the world would be a sizzling grease spot by now.

djafrot · December 4, 2002, 05:26

After all that complaining (myself included) I have been using spies a little in my recent game.

They're deadly expensive, but 2000 gold gave me the location of all of one of my rival's troop positions, across the board. VERY useful, no?

Of course, planting those spies got two civ's at war against me, so...