Growth/Industy/Tech vs. World Size/Difficulty

[Bblue]

I've seen some people post here recently about what bonuses the AI and the player get depending on what size world they play on (mostly in regards to what is the hardest map). This sorta peeked my intrest and I had some spare time and here are the results:

RESEARCH
The research required to reach the first tech (which is also the base multiplier for all future techs) is determined primarlily* by map size.

The energy required to reach the first tech for BOTH the human player and the AI is as follows:

Tiny Map 8
Small Map 11
Standard Map 14
Large Map 15
Huge Map 22
Custom Map SMAC adjusts it approprietly.

*on citizen level only the player uses the following numbers instead (the AI uses the numbers above)

Tiny Map 7
Small Map 10
Standard Map 13
Large Map 14
Huge Map 20
Custom Map opps, forgot about this one, but is probably close to a 10% decrease from the cost on the same size custom map on another difficulty level.

cont...
[This message has been edited by Bblue (edited November 22, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by Bblue (edited November 22, 1999).]

[Bblue]

GROWTH and INDUSTRY

Depending on what difficulty level you play on this will give the AI bonuses to it's Growth and Industry as follows:

Citizen -3
Specialist -2
Talent -1
Librairian 0
Thinker +2
Transend +3

Map Size will give Growth and Industry bonuses to both the AI AND the human players (for the AI they are cumulative with the difficulty bonuses)

Small Map +1
Tiny Map +2

There is also an additional +1 Growth and Industy bonus for the AI ONLY: the AI will get an additional +1 Growth and Industry IF it is a small or tiny map AND the difficulty is Talent, Specilist, or Citizen

Custom Size Maps DO NOT get map size bonuses no matter how small!!!

cont...

[Bblue]

The bonuses seem to interact with the game in some strange ways. I am not sure how negitive modifiers react with the game as I don't normally play at those levels and didn't feel like spending the time on it. As for the positive modifiers here is what I've observed so far

Negitive modifiers from factions and SE choices do get added in with the bonuses.(ie. +2 Growth for Tiny map and you play the Pirates.. +1 Growth). Positive Bonuses at first glance appear to be overridden, probably until the faction + SE modifiers are greater then the bonuses provided due to map size. Exception: the Drones with thier +2 Industry still get a +1 over and above the Map size bonus, so I am not clear what is exactly going on here. (Still working with this, hope I will figure it out)


I only spent 2 hours gathering this info so please leave a message if you know of something here that is incorrect as I am modifieing this post as I am still figuring things out; however, I think I got the basic gist of it. Once any errors are found and cleared up it would be nice it this information was saved somewhere that is accessable for future refrence and for new players. Maybe let Vel, if he wants to, clean it up and add it as an index to his Stradgy guide?

Alas, for the reason I started this.. what is the hardest map to play on. If you just take into account the bonuses discussed above and nothing else (ie. ease of getting to your oppent early, time for them to build up, etc..). Assuming the Human player plays a faction with the with no minues to Growth or Industry. Dividing your Growth/Industry by the AI's Growth/Industry.

Standard Map 10/7 = 1.42
Small Map 9/6 = 1.5
Tiny Map 8/5 = 1.6

On a Tiny map at Transend level the AI has a 60% faster Growth/Industry then a human player, compared to a 50% on a small map and 42% on a standard or larger map. So on these factors a tiny map at transend level should be the hardest.

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"Power does not corrupt; it merely attracts the corruptable"

[This message has been edited by Bblue (edited November 22, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by Bblue (edited November 22, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by Bblue (edited November 22, 1999).]

[LamprosWC]

I think you're overanalyzing it. The idea is:
1, ppl who play small maps wnat quick games, and vis a versa
2, Playing on a huge map, it would be possible to have a ton of tech by the time you met anyone if they did'nt slow you down.

I think it depends on the faction. Miriam is gonig to have some difficulties on the larger map, where as Lal could go nuts. Builder factions get helped, whereas conqueror factions get hurt. (this is proabably one reason for the teach bonus on the smaller map: balance builder factions at all levels.)

Alex

[Tau Ceti]

About the way bonuses add:

On smaller worlds, the bonus you get to Industry and Growth is reduced by 1 if you get a positive rating in other ways. A few examples for a tiny world:

Most factions:
Growth: 0 basic + 2 bonus = 2
Industry: 0 basic + 2 bonus = 2

Most factions running Planned:
Growth: 0 basic + 2 Planned + 1 bonus = 3
Industry: 0 basic + 1 Planned + 1 bonus = 2
(making Planned alone quite useless)

Santiago:
Industry: -1 basic + 2 bonus = 1

Yang:
Growth: +1 basic + 1 bonus = 2
Industry: +1 basic + 1 bonus = 2
(No better than the others!)

Yang running Planned:
Growth: +1 basic + 2 Planned + 1 bonus = 4
Industry: +1 basic + 1 Planned + 1 bonus = 3
(Yang gets full effect of Planned, though)

Domai:
Industry: +2 basic + 1 bonus = 3

Hope that helps.
[This message has been edited by Tau Ceti (edited November 23, 1999).]

[Bblue]

Thanks for the reply,
I think the way you discribe the bonus dropping to +1 is the best way to understand how the game handles how the difficulty/map size bonuses and faction/SE bonuses interact.

Knowing how the game handles this gives a better insight in how to play the early game (on smaller worlds), especially in regards to running Planned with no other bonuses! Effectively: +1 Growth for -2 efficiency, not much reason to use this until you can scare up some more bonuses from somewhere.

Thought: Could the AI running the Drones actually end up with a +9 Industry?!?! (Ponder: am I starting to talk like the aliens?)

Bounuses to industry that don't show up on the SE screens:
+3 Trancend Level
+1 Tiny Map (reduced from +2 since the Drones get a bonus here)

Bounus from SE/Faction
(Max from these is +5 anything larger is ignored)
+2 Faction bonus
+1 Planned or Wealth
+2 Eudaimonic

Total +9 !!

That's One mineral per line!!! or is there a limit? (maybe this is why the game reduces the bonus to +1, so an AI faction can't get a +10 (FREE!!) although it seems add odd way to handle this) I know the drones start with an effictive +6 Industry (4 minerals per line)hmmm.. maybe this is how they built the Bulk Matter Transmitter in one of my games in 3 turns

About small worlds, where the bonus is +1, does it drop to +0 with the first faction/SE bonus? You post seems to say this but I wanted to make sure as I haven't looked at small worlds as much as I have tiny ones.
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"Power does not corrupt; it merely attracts the corruptable"

[This message has been edited by Bblue (edited November 23, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by Bblue (edited November 23, 1999).]

[RedFred]

Bblue - thanks for alerting me to the possibilities of the Drones. That big -2 research has meant that I haven't gotten around to playing them yet, but after seeing their amazing industrial potential I'll be giving them a shot next.

[Tau Ceti]

The bonus for a small world does drop to 0 in the same way, making Planned not very useful to anyone but Yang.

I do not have SMACX, so I cannot check this myself: do the Free Drones really get a 60 % reduction - only four minerals per line? I thought 50 % was the limit regardless of other bonuses. I have never seen an AI faction with better than 50 %, but then I cannot remember ever seeing any of them running Eudaimonic. Yang with Planned/Wealth should be able to reach +6 (on non-tiny maps), but he does not tend to run Wealth, either.

OTOH, I have seen AI cities needing only 3 nutrients per line, so I guess it is possible...

[Tau Ceti]

Hmmm... Looking through my save files, I found one where Yang obly needed 4 minerals per line. However, this was on a large world, and he was running Police State/Planned/Survival at the time! That means he must have at least +4 before any modifiers for faction and SE.

I checked the other factions too, and the results are strange. Check it out:

Miriam (Fundamentalist/Planned/Power)
+6 Growth (+7 with Creche), +4 Industry

Lal (Democratic/Planned/Power)
+7 Growth (no Creches), +4 Industry

Yang (Police State/Planned/Survival
+6 Growth (no Creches), +6 Industry

Santiago (Fundamentalist/Free Market/Power)
+5 Growth (+6 with Creche), +3 Industry

I just cannot see how Santiago can have an Industry only 1 level less than Miriam and Lal. The Growth ratings can be explained if we assume that they all get +5 Growth as a basic bonus, and that +6 Growth is the same as +5 Growth (5 nutrients per line - this is how it works for human players, but we get population boom), meaning that you need a Growth rating of +7 to need only 4 nutrients per line, and +9 to get 3 nutrients per line.
Confused? Well, me too.

By the way, it seems that the AI factions get an extra +1 Growth/Industry if the human player is Unsurpassed, and that the difficulty level bonuses also go down by 1 if SE settings give them at least +1 in that category. (At least on large worlds - I have not tested this for other map sizes.)

Perhaps someone from Firaxis could explain how all this really works?

[Bblue]

Ouch this is making my head hurt.

The more I look at the numbers the less sense they seems to make. Going to go load some old games and do some playing around (assuming I can find a good saved game, I just erased most of my old ones the other week :/)

Here is something else that you might want to keep an eye out for: The 'Energy Mantinece' Bug, where you only pay 1/3 of the upkeep cost for facilities on Transend (2/3 on Thinker). Does the comp get this benifit? I have a feeling that the code for this 'bug' was ment as a cheat/equilizer for the AI on high difficulty levels, but some how it got bugged up and effects the human player. If it does effect the AI the same way it does the human player, I hope Firaxis leaves it alone as far as the AI is concerned, but fixes it for the human (it's on the fix list) If it don't... well maybe it should I'll post any finding when I get a chance to take a good look at a more developed game. I am just hoping there is some rhymn and reason for the way the game gives it bonuses.

As a sidenote: I think there is a limit set at +7 as I don't think I have ever seen less then 3 blocks on a food/mineral line.

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"Power does not corrupt; it merely attracts the corruptable"



[This message has been edited by Bblue (edited November 24, 1999).]

[Tau Ceti]

^

[Bblue]

I have been meaning to get back to this, but it is the busy season at UPS and I hardly have time to play SMACX much less experiment with numbers Hoping to get back to this after the holidays.

Glad Tau Ceti bumped this maybe someone else would like the chime in with thier experiences and theroies on how these bonuses work.

as Tau Ceti stated:
"meaning that you need a Growth rating of +7 to need only 4 nutrients per line, and +9 to get 3 nutrients per line."
I have seen some hint of this kind of 'addition' but It don't seem to explain all the situations that pop up :/ and if there is a modifier for being unsurpassed, it seems like that may be a hard one to ferret out. But haven't given up yet.. just posponed for a while.

One thing I have done is look at the energy maintiance 'bug' for the AI.. and well.. guess what.. I'm not sure what is going on!
The AI definatly gets some kind of energy 'bonus', but it don't exactly match the energy mantiance bug, then agian, it is really hard to account for where the AI used money and recieved money from turn to turn. Gonna have to setup a test with a VERY small number of cities (like 2-3) and try to minimize 'outside forces'. I really wish I could corner Tim or some other Firaxis guy and have them go into detail on this type of thing.

All this 'cause... I just want to know... what are the rules of the game?

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"Power does not corrupt; it merely attracts the corruptable"



[This message has been edited by Bblue (edited December 09, 1999).]

[Tau Ceti]

I have not found a formula that explains all situations either. It seems the bonus can change in the middle of games, but I am not sure exactly what triggers it. My best theory at the moment is that the AI gets an additional bonus if the human player has been unsurpassed for a certain amount of time.

I am quite sure that the human player unsurpassed bonus is real. If you want to try it for yourself, I think this is the easiest way:

Start a new game as Zakharov. Get Planetary Networks quickly, or choose it as your start tech. Play as normal (though not extremely expansively), but try to find someone else and infiltrate them or get a pact with them. As Zakharov, you should be Unsurpassed at this point. Now take all your cities off nutrient production and set energy distribution to 100 % Psych; this way your faction should stop growing quite quickly.

Wait until the other faction runs Planned itself (to avoid the problem of bonuses being reduced), and has a larger population than you, then give them all your tech. That should make them Unsurpassed.

I would send a save to you if I had one. Sorry.

[Bblue]

Helpful *BUMP*

[gnome]

More and more I wish they had a "fair game" option that disables all computer cheats... and find some way to crank up the difficulty in ways less frustrating.

I was hoping I was playing a fair game at "librarian" setting as the manual described, but if this thread is correct there are minor cheats even on that level.

I bet there are a few of us who could write an AI that could whomp their AI's butt, even with theirs cheating.

[Bblue]

Gnome: Unless I missed something... (It has been a while since I looked at this mind you) But at Librarian settings on a standard or larger map (or a custom map)then the comp should be 'even'.

As far as AIs that don't 'cheat' the only one I own is for an older WWII wargame (V for Victory series, a top quality game) the difficulty levels in it were represended by improved AI play (no cheats) and as far as an AI goes, it did fairly well. Not nearly human, but it would give you a good challenge every now and then.

[David Byron]

I had a quick look at this the other day. I think the error in finding the formula is of thinking that the bonuses for map size and for the AI's difficulty level are of the same +/-10% type as the normal industry and growth levels. They aren't.

On a size tiny map you have 8 columns to fill but it is still 100%. Each column is 12.5%. Consequently (with rounding down) a +10% bonus doesn't register as one less column. It's 2.5% short. On the other hand a 10% penalty is rounded down to a 12.5% penalty of one whole column extra.

In effect then it works out that your first +10% is ignored but after that it's normal. Penalties are normal too. Now for AI on the lower levels I *assume* it works the other way. If they have over 10 columns then each column is worth less than 10% so a +10% is a column off but a -10% is TWO columns extra for the poor old AI. This could be tested with an AI Pirates' Growth on the easy levels but I haven't done so.

Because I'm a mathemetician not an engineer....

[gnome]

Another good example of a game where the AI didn't cheat is SSG's Warlords series. It was actually a pretty tough nut to crack on Warlord level (the highest).

I was addicted to Warlords II until Civ II came along; mostly because Warlords II is a military-only game and the set of units doesn't change over time. But as far as the challenge of the game, it was superior.

[David Byron]

The theory I mention above seems confirmed except I haven't tried it on different map sizes. With Transcend level / unsurpassed the basic # columns is 5 and 5 9instead of 7/7 for transcend level alone). Thus each one column represents 20%. Positive bonuses less than 20% (ie the odd bonus levels) are ignored / rounded down. Thus:

Pirates with no SE bonus (-1 growth) have 6 columns.

Miriam with no SE bonus (+0 growth) has 5 columns.

Yang with no SE bonus (+1 growth) has 5 columns.

Caretakers on Democracy (+2 growth) have 4 columns.

Usurpers on Democracy (+3 growth) have 4 food columns.

Caretakers as above with Crech (+4 growth) have 3 columns.

Similarly for Industry:

Spartans with no SE bonus (-1) has 6 columns.

Everyone else with no SE bonus has 5 columns -- including Yang with +1 industry.

I assume therefore that a pop boom will occur for anyone with +6 growth irrespective of the number of food columns this would be because of difficulty level, size of map or "unsurpassed" status.

[Tau Ceti]

Indeed, that formula even explains all the values listed in my Nov 23 post. And I just tried starting a game on Talent (which gives -1 to the AI), and Santiago, with -1 Industry, did drop the expected two columns to 13.
[This message has been edited by Tau Ceti (edited February 03, 2000).]

[Bblue]

Thanks David!! I think you solved this one!! Now is only 2 questions I can think of left in the Growth/Industry bonus question.

1) Is the 'Unsurpassed' bonus always a 2 column reduction or does it vary according to how unsurpassed you are? (my guess is that it is constant at -2)

2)Transend(-3) + Tiny(-2) + Unsurpassed(-2) = 3 columns, each equal to 33 1/3% so a 40% (+4) bonus should drop the columns down to 2. I have never caught an AI at 2 columns (3 columns is the least I've ever noticed ) So is there a limit at 3 columns? Yeah, Yeah I know I'm the only person that likes to play on tiny maps

[David Byron]

What remains to be seen is if the size column modifier is cumulative in an additive or multiplicative manner with the difficulty modifier and the unsurpassed modifier. ie would it be 3 columns or 4 for tiny / transcend / unsurpassed?

[Bblue]

*Bump*

[Helium Pond]

Bblue, thanks for bringing this thread to my attention. I'm trying to figure out how to reference it in the list I'm making (over in the "Difficulty levels explained?" thread). I don't want to mention map sizes or unsurpassed bonuses, because I just want to keep the focus on difficulty settings. This isn't always strictly possible, because some things depend on both, such as the bureaucracy penalty. In that case, I just used a sample value from a standard planet as an index of comparison.

In this case, I think first I need to know the "basic" number of minerals/line for each difficulty level, assuming no SE modifiers apply--which is something I'd want to put on my list anyway. Do you know these numbers?

[Bblue]

Assuming Standard map size the 'base' number of minerals per line and the base number of nutrients per line is 10 (AI and human players). This is modified by difficulty as follows for the AI players (humans are not modified). [This is modification due to difficulty level only, no SE, map size, or unsurpasssed bonuses included]

Citizen -3
Specialist -2
Talent -1
Librairian 0
Thinker +2
Transend +3

or expressed as nutrients/minerals per line:

Citizen 13
Specialist 12
Talent 11
Librairian 10
Thinker 8
Transend 7


PS. These numbers are only correct for maps of standard or larger size and custom size maps (tiny and small maps have additional modifiers)

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"Power does not corrupt; it merely attracts the corruptable"


[This message has been edited by Bblue (edited May 01, 2000).]

[Helium Pond]

Thanks for simplifying this very complex thread for me. I'll add that info to my list.

[Ned]

This thread illustrates a game design strategy along the lines of the following:

To increase the difficulty level, the designers gave the AI increasing cheats rather than increased time to think before it moved.

This is almost like buying a chess game where the designers employed cheats to increase the difficulty level.

Regardless, many of us have expressed frustration at the stupidity of the AI across the board. This thread proves, in my opinion, that it does not get smarter when one increases the difficulty level. This is unfortunate.

[Sikander]

Ned,

It seems AI is the constant bane of the computer gamer. Still, I don't think it's fair to compare SMAC to chess. Chess is a game where intense research has only recently made AI a match for the best players, and only then at great expense (including research staff). Let's face it, Fireaxis isn't IBM, and your desktop is not Deep Blue.

Multiply this limitation by the inherent difference in the complexity of the game. Chess has 64 squares, all of which are identical, while SMAC has hundreds or thousands of squares, with numerous terrain types, which can change during the game. In chess only one of your 16 pieces can move in a turn. In SMAC, all of your (potentially hundreds) units can move every turn, which combined with randomization of combat results raises the number of possible outcomes by orders of magnitude. Thus it is nearly impossible for the AI to look even 1 turn deep, there are too many variables.

Finally, consider that SMAC is still in large part CIV, which was a miniscule little DOS program. The system works, but it would be interesting to see a new champion paradigm. Perhaps a game designed to simplify the task for the AI combined with a beefed up AI design could give the player a battle without resorting to various cheats.

[Ned]

Still, Sik, it is somewhat disturbing to realize that the Computer AI is NOT planning overall strategy while the player is taking his or her turn. Strategy is the weakest part of AC's AI.

Ned

[Sikander]

I totally agree Ned. The AI is not playing the same game that we are, and it's analysis of the current situation is cursory and short sighted. We are left with multiplayer to test ourselves until we see a significant challenge from the AI.