SMAC vs. SMACX Poll

[Bkeela]

I was just wondering what everyones opinion
on SMAC and SMACX are. Does everyone like both games equally, or are there purests out there like me, who loathe SMACX - not only for its many bugs, but also because of the awkward aspects the new story line introduces?

So if you could take the time to state if you either like both, are indifferent, or prefer SMAC over SMACX, or vice versa, I would be greatly interested. If there are enough replies, I will collate the results.

Thanks.

Bkeela.

[Khan Singh]

After playing SmacX, I don't think I could go back to ordinary Smac. I like the new indigenous life too much. Fungal Towers and Spore launchers are both great additions. I also like the new Projects.

But I have to admit that the new factions are very poorly balanced. The Drones and Progenitors are unstoppable, while the Angels and the Pirates are unplayable. IMO the Progenitors and the Drones should both start the game 20 yrs after the start. At least. Also, allowing the Progenitors to win by building a Resonance Communicator was a big mistake. Did the game really need a Victory path just like Transcendence----but easier?

[RedFred]

SMACX all the way. Better native life, interesting new factions, aliens to spice things up, handy new techs and SPs. One of the big reasons for me giving the nod to SMACX is that it is the more difficult of the two. I have not yet come up with a fast transcend time to match my best at SMAC.

My experience with the new factions has been different than Khan Singh's. I seem to be able to play the Drones, Cult!?, 'Borg and Pirates best and have more trouble with both aliens and Roze.

Odd about the aliens as they start out so powerfully. I think I rely on that early tech swapping with the AI a lot. Playing the aliens just doesn't seem as fun, either.

In my opinion, SMACX shines the brightest in random faction games with both old and new factions mixed in.

I agree that the downside is that there is no question that SMACX V2 is buggier than SMAC V4.

[Master Marcus]

Yes, but the most itching bug of all - the maintenance - is correctly fixed by v2. Remaining bugs are very minor ones sometimes at the advantage of a poor AI, I don't really mind for a great game unaffected at all by the details found on ZsoZso list. Still it would be great if Firaxis plan to make the v3.

I'm a SMACx v2 addict, and since you can play any original factions within the new upgrades - it's exactly like seeing the Star Wars special editions remakes : how many fans out there are still viewing the original when you can have all the original footing within the remakes ?

Not to mention that the AI is a bit less stupid : building more air units and colonizing smaller islands, for instance...

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The art of mastering:"la Maîtrise des caprices du subconscient avant tout".

[Garth Vader]

Interesting that you made reference to Star Wars Special edition. I feel the same about those as I do with SMACx.

I liked the SW special edition but thought the changes they made to Empire and Jedi reeked. Especially the edited dialog. Yes I have seen them enough to notice a phrase or two out of place.

So I thought of the special editions as just a way to milk extra cash off the slobbering fans who bought the THX version of the originals and then spent more on the special editions.

[Enigma]

After playing SMACX I have decided that I enjoy it more, but not a whole lot. It is quite tedious to have to build aerospace complexes everywhere when I could just get a secret project. I do not like the new factions but the new techs, etc. are nice.

The drones do seem very overpowered, especially if played by a human player. Just swap tech with the AI.. you will not be so high on the power charts due to low tech. The drones are very powerful. Not to mention the one less drone can allow some serious ICSing even in FM without any drone problems.

The new storyline was more or less botched completely, writing a story with 7 factions is a LARGE strain, and writing a story with 14 factions is even worse.

Overall I think that SMACX is nice, but nothing I could not live without. As far as the price $20 is very little to pay for even 1 week's extra worth of amusement..

Also the 1/3 maintenence cost on Transcend and thinker seems to have been fixed in SMACX, this rewards pop booming even more since the facilities it affects are related to drone control.

I would far prefer a bug free v5. SMAC than a buggy v 2. SMACX.

But firaxis has been completely silent about this..

[kaz]

Roze can be played by anyone who plays the PK well. No real minuses, and a few pluses.
Add to this the early ability to go Planned, good early probes without Fundie(always a plus), and the ability to sit back and get tech for free(invaluable in MP), and it is a great faction in the hands of a human, but not quite that great for a AI.

The Pirates get the bonuses of being able to build virtually unopposed for 100 years, and if they terraform only the sea(and get the enhancement facilities), they can have a great support infrastructure(and bases in the deep sea that aren't worth it for anyone else to possess).

As for the Aliens, two words. Nerve Gas.

Drones? A Miriam clone. If you hate Miriam, you hate the Drones.

All in all, the SMAX factions are just jumped up versions of the first factions. More bonuses, more minuses. Great for single strategies and SP, but most MPers play old factions for their flexibility.
[This message has been edited by kaz (edited May 15, 2000).]

[Velociryx]

I *truly* enjoy my games of SMAX, for three principle reasons:

First: I really love the extra productivity from sea squares, thanks to the new builds possible....getting 4/5 from each kelp/harness on the map is just too sweet, and the pirates, using trunklines, can out-produce their land-lubbing counterparts in the midgame (surrounding and boreholing islands to get the BH-Kick).

Second, I love the whole host of little bug fixes that were introduced....everything from true maintenance costs, to artillery that actually does something, to the "cut maint. costs in half" SP that really WORKS now....::evil grin::

And finally, even though the new factions pretty much screwed the storyline, I like 'em anyway....quite refershing to have some new playstyles based on new sets of strengths and weaknesses without having to spend three weeks in the faction editor....

SMAC is still a cool game, but options-wise, SMACX really opens up the field of possibilities, and, as somebody else mentioned earlier, it's worth it for the native life forms alone! (even though, as a diehard Marketeer, the tend to kick my....assets? LOL)

-=Vel=-

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

What gives guys. Poor Rose has been taking a trashing here. Gotta love the grrrls.

Seriously though. Ability to go planned ASAP (as soon as you can raise 40 energy that is) rocks. This effectively allows the expansion for Angels on par with the best any other rapid expansion faction such as the Hive can offer. She has no real weaknesses and to my way of thinking is the perfect all around faction. Top that off with probe power excellance and shes got a vote from me for one of my fav factions.

But I digress. To the topic as posted. SMACX for game play definitely over SMAC. The so-called story line however does not work for me. I much prefered the original story. OTOH I'll take game play over story line any day.
And since I don't like the "new" story line more often than not I simply disallow use of progenitors (I for sure never play them). It's too tempting and easy to simply gas them out of existance.

[WhiteElephants]

I'm for SMACX for some of the reasons listed above -- maintenace costs fixed, new native life, new techs and SPs -- although I tend to play with the old factions (go figure?).

[Garth Vader]

I don't have SMACx and from what I have read I have no real desire to get it. I especially have no desire to plunk down an extra wad of cash for some new factions and techs when they haven't fixed all the bugs in the original game that I bought, and as I understand introduced some new ones .

[RedFred]

As in other threads, maybe we could get future voters to keep a running total of the votes. So far I make it out to be SMACX 7 SMAC 2.

Not sure what camp to put kaz in so I left him out for the time being.

[Basil]

Heheh, takes all kinds. I like both. In terms of story line, of course the SMACX story line basically doesn't exist, and isn't supported in the game anyway, except for the aliens. (It would be just so cool if a drone riot somewhere part way through the game led to a new faction, led by Domai, emerging.) But this is a game, not a novel, so that's a weakness but not the end of the world.

I really like about half the new facilities/secret projects/life forms/factions and actively dislike the other half, some of which are things that other people specifically like: I don't like spore launchers or aquafarms, for instance. I find many of these new features unbalanced - they are overpowered, too nice. Sea squares were good enough already, and why couldn't they have bothered to balance the new factions? (OK, I'll agree they balanced the Pirates. Now what about the other six?)

On the other hand, I really like the new engine, with its bug fixes. And hey - if I don't like a facility/SP/life form I can edit it out of alphax.txt, but I can't put one that I like into alpha.txt. So I'll probably end up playing a customized SMACX in the future, with the tech tree edited so that from a human faction's point of view you seem to be playing SMAC - until you run into a Progenitor faction and they have all this stuff from SMACX .

But if I'd had my choice, I'd rather they'd made the AI understand air power than all the additional features in the expansion.

So that's 7:2:2 for SMAX, SMAC, both.

[Zaxxon]

Wow I really like that idea of a drone riot having the possibility of leading to a new faction spawning . But instead of just the drones (I realize you picked the drones for their specific beliefs) it would be even more fun if it spawned a random faction.

Speaking of random, that is actually one of the main reasons that I'm all for SMAX over SMAC. I love not knowing who I'm going to play against (or who I myself am going to play, for that matter) when I start a new game. It keeps things interesting.

SMAX 8; SMAC 2; Draw(?)2

[senatus]

I like the new alien varieties; some of the SPs are fine, others a bit too powerful for their price (Cloudbase and the Energy Bank one). The techs are OK. I really dislike
the new factions because they disrupt the
"feel" of SMAC being centred on ideological
conflicts. I can't see the humans factionalized with the Progenitors around - they'd have to realize they are screwed as a race if they squabble - and in terms of an ideology, many of the new factions are stupid (i.e. I can't seriously see the Data Angels or even the Pirates "Ahar, Zackie, have ya ever been ta sea?" existing as a full-fledged faction that has to terraform and battle - they should be parasites in a civilized world, not a frontier one). If you called the DAs "Anarchists" and gave them SE choices and strengths / weaknesses I could buy it - but it's hard to see a full faction of hackers existing in a world where people worry about mindworm repellant more than computers.

[Khan Singh]

Okay, maybe calling the Angels 'unplayable' was a little unfair. It is only in a game with the Drones or University, where they build the HSA early, that I find the Angels to be totally useless.

But they aren't very strong. A +2 probe bonus doesn't help very much except defensively. -25% cost of operations is a very good modifier, but it doesn't change the fact that the Morganites are still the champion probe users. Having 100% more money is much better than paying 25% less to use mind control.

The real problem with the Angels is that they don't have any strengths except for probes, which are fairly easy to shut down.

[MapleLeaf27]

I would pick SMAC over SMACX, but it's close. Here's why:

I like the new alien life, and the random element of games using new and old factions. I especially like the Angels although I agree they're pretty weak unless they start far away from everyone else. I just like probing a lot.
The new buildings are mostly good (Covert Ops, Flechette Defense)
Battle Ogres are neat. So is Marine Detachment.

BUT

I find a lot of little things I don't like.
I don't like the alien factions, Drones (too strong), Cyborgs (too much like University).
Overall I don't think the new factions are well-balanced. The original 7 all fare about equal depending on how you set up your game (except Morgan, he just doesn't know how to build or defend himself, in my experience). With the new factions I find the Angels and Cult rarely get very far as AI players, while the Aliens can be unstoppable at times, especially when they eat another faction in the first twenty turns.
I play a lot of hotseat games, and I found
that once the newness wore off, everyone started picking the old guys again. We always play SMACX with random factions now, but the best game in my recent memory involved all the original 7 minus the Peacekeepers (replaced by Pirates).
The Cloudbase Academy was a bad idea. It's unbalancing because Aerospace Complexes are so important.
You can get Hybrid Forests before Tree Farms.
I hate being asked if I want to upgrade(downgrade) 3-res to plasma, and I hate how the game sometimes forces me to design a lot of missile units because it prefers R-Laser for no reason I can fathom. How often do you need R-Laser?
And on and on.

SMACX 8 - SMAC 3 - Undecided 2 ?

[joer]

I give SMACX the vote, simply because it is an expansion and gives the game more options and allows more different combinations. Especially the different faction setup can give each game a totally different flair.

However, I think that SMACX it has a lot of flaws and they could have done better as expansion.

I like the background story of the aliens. I think it gives the plotline more depth and a totally different dimension. However, I think that the execution of the alien factions in gameplay is flawed.

They are stronger, all right. However, they come off as so unbalanced that you cannot play them as human. Giving them directed research is just sick when playing blind. Some people love to pick an alien faction in MP after the other players have chosen human factions -- that's just annoying. Playing the aliens is like admitting that you suck in this game...where is the challenge? In the end, the Progenitors come off as unplayable for the player.

As enemies, they are interesting, but their diplomatic behaviour seems too much like your standard momentum faction. Instead of being bent on destroying each other and either ignoring or using the human factions, they just tend to rally up against me, often pacting with other human factions or with each other. The latter is simply wrong.
It would be much more interesting if they stayed true to their theme, and diplomacy and tech exchange would be muchmuch harder with them, and the human factions would make some effort to work together in order to get rid of them, rather than just pounding on me.

The other new factions seem not so well designed as the original ones. Their ideologies are lacking badly. The Pirates have none, the Data Angels have a very limited agenda and the Cult and the Cyborgs are just spinoff factions.

The new techs usually tend to be annoying at the start. I never want to research them. I have not found the additional goodies very useful at the time I research them. R- and D-armor is too expensive, you only need R-lasers later, and the same is true for sea-facilities. I have yet to equip a ship with marine detachment.
Some of the new SPs seem overpowered: Energy Nexus is on the edge, Cloudchaser academy is sick (as if MMI wasn't good enough as it is) and Manifold Nexus is beyond sick.

I like the new midgame additions: fungus and tectonic missiles are cute, flechette defense and the probe algorithmic enhancements are very good ideas to balance out previous inbalances. However, for me, there are hardly novelties worth at the beginning of the game.

The new landscape additions are nice and seem well balanced.

So while all my complaining gives a pretty bleak picture of ACX, I still like the variation it brings. As an addict, playing around with more combinations and more factions and test out their strengths and weaknesses makes it definately worth the money. Even if I think that there was more room for improvement.
-joer.

[Lord Maxwell]

I prefer smax due to a few major reasons. First and foremost is the fact that Alien Artifacts are a lot less common. They made the early and middle game to easy as a human in smac. (In smac I often had problems finding a free node for an AA, in smax I never use em for anything but building wonders unless I am really in need of tech. I used about 50/50 in smac.)

Well, the unbalancing factor on cloudbase academy isn't the military aspect, but the sattelite aspect. You basically get an early space ladder... I never was much of a fan for any of the free-fac wonders, they just don't make the game any more interesting, they just cut down on work... For a more challenging game let the ai have em all. (Mounting an attack to conquer with command nexus is ridiculously easy.)

The new techs mostly add more gunk, which is good, because by the late mid-game any faction played by a human is down to a tech every round, or 2 every 3 if you are a bit slow... Adding more filling between the gems was a good idea.

smax 10, smac 3, undecided 2

[joer]

The Cloudbase Academy is just...ARGH!

With an AI lagging in getting air defences up, air dominance is crucial to making fast, sweeping conquests anyways. So in the old ACT, you build a few, expensive aerospace complexes for your main industrial centers who could crank out excellent fighters and choppers, while hoping to get clean reactors soon, so support doesn't bog'em down.
Once those choppers return from their killing sprees, you have the choice to let them regenerate for quite some time at the front or fly them back to the aerospace base, losing effectively 2 turns in transit.

In ACX, you don't have to worry about designating aerospace cities -- every single one does it. You also don't take a few turns to build the complexes, delaying your fighter production. You just wait until you research MMI (usually 2 techs away from D:AP), dump a bunch of upgraded crawlers in one city and *flup*, every single city can produce air units who's discipline let even Santiago pale. Not only that, but you don't have to worry about flying them back to the core for regeneration once they're wounded. You can simply do it in that base you just captured from the enemy, then kill on the next turn -- that is in my view the biggest militairy advantage. And because you have beelined for MMI, you probably left the quest for militairy algorithms aside...who cares? Even if your enemies have got D:AP by now, all units in cities get defense rates doubled, making them as effective as AAA defenders.
And aren't there these rumors of the Academy giving fighters and choppers a higher movement?

But, yes, I agree, all those advantages are just minor in comparison to the fact that every single base gets full advantage of orbital improvements and can build them as well. Got no idea what to do with that sea-base out on the other side of your empire? Too lazy to micromanage...great, just pop up a few more satelites, without bothering to pay upkeep for any aerospace complexes.

But of course, such a project has its price. 300 minerals! With the same tech, you get the Cyborg fabric for 400 minerals. I still consider it a good SP, making the Academy a bargain, any way you look at it. One aerospace complex alone costs 80 minerals. So this project gives like 20 excellent facilities for the price of less than 4, and that's not mentioning the upkeep.

Didn't Firaxis want to try and balance certain aspects of the game with Alien Crossfire? Nice try.
-joer.

[SixArmedMan]

The first version of SMACX was much to buggy for anyone's acceptance. The V.2 has given the AI some annoying behavioural pattern of building 100+ probe teams and sending them all after the same city, to the point where you quit the game in frustration. In original SMAC and buggy SMACX, I've always been able to get a piecemeal invasion off. Well, I do like some of the new Secret Projects and land marks... Ummm.... anything else? Well, it wasn't' worth the $45 Canadian that I got it for...

SMACx:9 SMAC:4 Both/undecided:2

[aquestion]

I have just purchased SMACX and I love the game, it is definitely an improvement on the original. But what I am wondering is how you guys have mixed the classic factions with the new ones. It seems like my interface wont allow it and that is the one fundamental weakness I see in the new addition. If anyone could explain this dumb mistake to me it would be very enlightening.

Forget about storyline,
There is nothing I would rather do than have the Pirates going at it with Morgan and Deidre!

[Zaxxon]

I find it interesting how so many people will say that the new factions are bland and any decent player knows that you should stick with the original 7.

Personally, I've always liked the flavor that the new factions bring to the game. It's like having 14 different types of ice cream instead of 7.

[Sikander]

aquestion,

When you are starting a game, click on the arrow on at the end of the row containing a faction. You can then change this faction to any one you wish, including one which is already in the game, or a random faction.

[korn469]

well here is my thoughts on SMAC/SMACX

the one thing that i really like about SMACX is the new types of native life...i think the the fungal tower is a great idea...i like some of the new things in SMACX but...

...i despise the aliens! what are the chances that every space faring race that flies to alpha centauri ends up a ship wreck victim? to me the SMACX story was rushed and not nearly as cohesive or as good as the SMAC story...i also think that the play balance was better in SMAC

i like SMAC better but SMACX has some good points (the new indigenious life forms being one of them)

korn469

[Alinestra Covelia]

SMAX for me, without a shadow of a doubt. I loved the new techs and facilities. Right now I'm playing a game as Hive vs all new factions (except the Pirates, whom I have displaced) and doing well. Also, the ability to sidestep the HSAlgorithm is a great step for the game, and the new factions make wonderful new foes.

And I also agree that the revamped Star Wars films were unnecessary and very showy. I mean, what force can possibly account for the TIE Fighters' lasers changing colors? Red shift? Doppler effect? I think not.

Perhaps this was an early warning to us all that Lucas was over the hill and far away... if only I'd decoded it before spending good money on Episode I...

[Basil]

I have never analyzed the Cloudbase Academy to that extent, but I agree with every word Joer says. In my solo games the prerequisite for it is now Graviton theory - seems appropriate for a base floating in the sky.

I have a fix for the hybrid forests coming before tree farms quasi-bug:

Environmental Economics, EnvEcon, 0, 0, 4, 3, AdapEco, EcoEng, 000000100

Planetary Economics, PlaEcon, 0, 0, 4, 3, EnvEcon, Integ, 000000100

You still need the same techs to get both, but you get tree farms first.

[joer]

Alinestra: It must be The Force! You remember those weird thingies that are in your blood and make you have the force (or not)? Well, they are in laser beams as well.

But, then again, who cares about scientific explanations in Star Wars when things look cool.
-joer.

[ChrisShaffer]

SMAC - primarily because I'm not going to pay for a buggy product from a company that is no longer supporting the game. I haven't played SMAX and don't expect to do so. I have no interest in single-player, and can find plenty of SMAC multi-player games, so why bother?

Chris - who is just waiting for Civ3 or some other turn based game so he can forget this bugfest of SMAC ever existed

[Alinestra Covelia]

Joer - for an indepth dissection of Star Wars Episode I and its inherent weaknesses, look at my obsessive housemate's website:
http://www.enixine.dabsol.co.uk/episode1ispants.html

Midichlorians, my arse. >:

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"In all creation, there can be no task more onerous or tedious than that of playing God." - Stephen Fry, 'The Liar'.

Homepage http://www.enixine.dabsol.co.uk (Shared)
[This message has been edited by Alinestra Covelia (edited May 19, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Alinestra Covelia (edited May 19, 2000).]