Doesn't stink out loud anymore

Brutus66 · December 2, 2002, 22:33

I just read the Open Letter thread and was pretty surprised by what I saw.
Here was an assurance of commitment from someone representing the makers, and he was drawing a lot of hostile fire.
I didn't notice much return fire from the old time defenders of the faith like asleepatthewheel, alicecooper or vondrack to name but a few.
I remember posting a thread that claimed "civ3 still stinks out loud" about a year ago, and I was virtually burned in effigy.
Now I have tried PTW, and aside from the poor internet play, I liked what I saw.
I thought the advanced unit commands were excellent. I found the single player game to really hum right along with all those commands, and I didn't need to remember any shortcut keys to move stacks, etc.
And the new game modes like regicide are lots of fun.

I found that some of the suggestions I had made on this very forum had been incorporated into the game, like the ability to name units. I asked for that, and it's in!!
It also seemed to me that some of the old annoyances are still around. For example, while playing my first LAN game, a spearman killed a tank. It happened, I swear it did. The tank was low on health, and the spearman had terrain in his favor, but it really happened.
I also saw sailing frigates sink subs.
But for the most part I really enjoyed it.
So I feel obligated to give those devils at Firaxis their due and say that I approve of their final product (especially since I am not that interested in internet play).

To all you die-hards who wanted so desperately to drag me out into the square and hang me, I concede that you have a pretty good game now. But I have a few more suggestions...

Coracle · December 2, 2002, 23:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Brutus66
I just read the Open Letter thread and was pretty surprised by what I saw.
Here was an assurance of commitment from someone representing the makers, and he was drawing a lot of hostile fire.
I didn't notice much return fire from the old time defenders of the faith like asleepatthewheel, alicecooper or vondrack to name but a few.
I remember posting a thread that claimed "civ3 still stinks out loud" about a year ago, and I was virtually burned in effigy.
Now I have tried PTW, and aside from the poor internet play, I liked what I saw.
I thought the advanced unit commands were excellent. I found the single player game to really hum right along with all those commands, and I didn't need to remember any shortcut keys to move stacks, etc.
And the new game modes like regicide are lots of fun.

I found that some of the suggestions I had made on this very forum had been incorporated into the game, like the ability to name units. I asked for that, and it's in!!
It also seemed to me that some of the old annoyances are still around. For example, while playing my first LAN game, a spearman killed a tank. It happened, I swear it did. The tank was low on health, and the spearman had terrain in his favor, but it really happened.
I also saw sailing frigates sink subs.
But for the most part I really enjoyed it.
So I feel obligated to give those devils at Firaxis their due and say that I approve of their final product (especially since I am not that interested in internet play).

To all you die-hards who wanted so desperately to drag me out into the square and hang me, I concede that you have a pretty good game now. But I have a few more suggestions...

What a curious post.

Internet MP play was the main purpose of PTW, and why it was pushed at us. MP should have been in the original game, and now, after the patch, it merely is bad instead of not working at all. So PTW fails in its main purpose - what people paid for.

Does PTW have several very minor useful features for SP? Yes. They should have been in the original game - or patched in - without my having to pay upwards of thirty dollars for them.

You thought "Civ 3 stinks out loud". So you earlier posted. Of course to the True Believers, the Defenders of the Faith, that was heresy. Why they defend the game I have no idea; this site promotes the game for business reasons, and that's understandable. But now, you think the game, after five patches including for the expansion, is OK? Well, let me surprise you with the following.

The Firaxis Faithful, to whom the game is a religious experience, the ones who thought it "great" twelve months ago before even the first patch, attacked me a lot more than you, and were allowed to do so by this Firaxis-friendly site. I could care less. But even I will admit that now, with PTW and its patch, the game is passably OK, if you are not interested in MP. (That's assuming that Culture Flipping stupidiity can indeed be turned off with PTW).

It still has many problems: simplified history; AI cheats; REX/settler diarrhea; pathetic naval warfare, and many other things. So it remains disappointing to me. But in it's present form it is not a rip-off. The turn-based, unit by unit, strategy game also seems rather a dinosaur now.

But that is not the point.

Firaxis ripped us all off by the beta products they sold. If I paid fifty dollars for Civ 3 (with the latest patch installed) with the features of PTW (with its latest patch), I would have complained about some faulty concepts - but I never would have been angered at their rip-off selling us buggy products. That is what they did, and they wasted a tremendous amount of my time. I never volunteered to be a beta tester spending countless hours trying to improve their product, rushed to market for the Holiday season as with PTW, not only by downloading and installing patches, but by editing the game to have it make sense, not that the editor was all that good either. And no scenarios for most of the time, and still no cheat mode as in Civ 2.

As for patches, when someone sells me defective merchandise I EXPECT it to be fixed.

I also found Briggs' letter disingenuous, and all but admitting the game wasn't playtested enough. The fact that he's being pushed by Infogrames doesn't matter to me. Firaxis will be hard-pressed to overcome their bad reputation for Civ 3 and PTW.

Tuberski · December 2, 2002, 23:27

Where have you been Coracle?

I'm not going to try and defend the game or PTW.

I don't even own PTW, since, I don't plan on playing MP anyway.

Good to see you back!

ACK!

Willem · December 2, 2002, 23:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Tuberski

I don't even own PTW, since, I don't plan on playing MP anyway.

It's worth getting anyway. Much improved over 1.29f, especially stack movement.

Coracle · December 2, 2002, 23:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Tuberski
Where have you been Coracle?

I'm not going to try and defend the game or PTW.

I don't even own PTW, since, I don't plan on playing MP anyway.

Good to see you back!

ACK!

Just been lurking watching from a distance and playing new scenarios for Civ 2.

This is not my first post in the past several months; just the first one you've seen. I decided to see what was up with PTW, so I took a look - and laughed out loud: nothing but more crashes, bugs, and a patch for PTW. Nothing changes.

Cyclotron · December 2, 2002, 23:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Tuberski
Where have you been Coracle?

I'm not going to try and defend the game or PTW.

I don't even own PTW

Well, that's no obstacle to your buddy there.

notyoueither · December 2, 2002, 23:49

I think the 'Good to see you back!' bit is his entry in the irony of the century award.

Either that, or he is getting very clever in hunting for +1.

The Templar · December 3, 2002, 02:43

'Stinks out loud' is the absolute funniest mixed metaphor I've ever heard/read.

Alex · December 3, 2002, 11:53

not again, please

Traelin · December 3, 2002, 11:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Coracle
What a curious post.

Internet MP play was the main purpose of PTW, and why it was pushed at us.

The main purpose of PTW was indeed MP play. I agree with that. However, I guarantee the overwhelming majority of people that bought PTW did so for the SP improvements. I know I'm at least one of them. To me, the fixes in PTW were enough to buy it -- and we can't expect any gaming company to infinitely patch a product and stay in business. In fact, the only thing I'm really frustrated about is the sluggishness of the F3 (Mil. Adv.) screen. Other than that, I'm quite pleased with the end product.

Quote:

Originally posted by Coracle
MP should have been in the original game, and now, after the patch, it merely is bad instead of not working at all. So PTW fails in its main purpose - what people paid for.

I really don't know if MP should or should not have been included in the original game. I think that's a matter of opinion. But I can say that people have the choice whether or not to buy it, and whether or not to return it.

Quote:

Originally posted by Coracle
Does PTW have several very minor useful features for SP? Yes. They should have been in the original game - or patched in - without my having to pay upwards of thirty dollars for them.

Like I said above, how many patches can a company be expected to produce? When it comes right down to it, any for-profit company is in the market for just that -- profit. We wouldn't have any good games if it weren't for capitalism. The beauty of capitalism is that people are motivated by money, and that's a good motivation indeed.

Quote:

Originally posted by Coracle
You thought "Civ 3 stinks out loud". So you earlier posted. Of course to the True Believers, the Defenders of the Faith, that was heresy. Why they defend the game I have no idea; this site promotes the game for business reasons, and that's understandable. But now, you think the game, after five patches including for the expansion, is OK? Well, let me surprise you with the following.

The Firaxis Faithful, to whom the game is a religious experience, the ones who thought it "great" twelve months ago before even the first patch, attacked me a lot more than you, and were allowed to do so by this Firaxis-friendly site. I could care less. But even I will admit that now, with PTW and its patch, the game is passably OK, if you are not interested in MP. (That's assuming that Culture Flipping stupidiity can indeed be turned off with PTW).

I have no idea what the motivations of this site are, and neither do you. Making assumptions can be a dangerous thing. You may be right, but when you're wrong, man will you get flambasted.

Quote:

Originally posted by Coracle
It still has many problems: simplified history; AI cheats; REX/settler diarrhea; pathetic naval warfare, and many other things. So it remains disappointing to me. But in it's present form it is not a rip-off. The turn-based, unit by unit, strategy game also seems rather a dinosaur now.

But that is not the point.

The simplified history is obviously due to the fact that the game is an abstraction of real life. It's not meant to represent every little tiny nitpicking detail of real life.

AI doesn't exist in its purest form. I'll actually debate that it never will, or that it won't in the foreseeable future. We can be fooled into thinking it does based on sheer computing power alone, but this is another discussion for another time. Therefore, AI cheats are going to exist.

Settler diarrhea is not a problem to me, since it makes the game more challenging. IF AI ever truly exists, then maybe I'd have a problem with the notion of settler diarrhea, but as of now I consider it a challenge.

Quote:

Originally posted by Coracle
Firaxis ripped us all off by the beta products they sold.

How was anyone ripped off? You could have taken it back if you didn't like it. I challenge anyone to find a store where being courteous and explaining the situation wouldn't at least get you an exchange for your money. I have honestly never had a problem in this arena, and I've returned/exchanged all types of products. The only way I can see them debating this is if you kept the game for six months or something. In which case I'd argue that you liked it enough to keep it for six months.

Quote:

Originally posted by Coracle
If I paid fifty dollars for Civ 3 (with the latest patch installed) with the features of PTW (with its latest patch), I would have complained about some faulty concepts - but I never would have been angered at their rip-off selling us buggy products. That is what they did, and they wasted a tremendous amount of my time. I never volunteered to be a beta tester spending countless hours trying to improve their product, rushed to market for the Holiday season as with PTW, not only by downloading and installing patches, but by editing the game to have it make sense, not that the editor was all that good either. And no scenarios for most of the time, and still no cheat mode as in Civ 2.

Fifty dollars is a joke in a capitalist's grand scheme of things. Anyone that has fifty bucks to spend on a game should feel himself/herself fortunate. And for the replayability of Civ 3, fifty bucks is a huge joke. Look at the sales figures and return figures.

Quote:

Originally posted by Coracle
As for patches, when someone sells me defective merchandise I EXPECT it to be fixed.

Well then you may as well never own a CPU, because you'll never be happy with any OS. Every OS is buggy, regardless of how many patches are released. Such is the nature of S/W. People are generally just satisfied with stability in S/W, and ignore minor glitches. All the major glitches were patched in Civ 3, with the exception of the auto-declaration of war when an AI uses nukes. that was fixed by PTW v1.00 though.

Quote:

Originally posted by Coracle
I also found Briggs' letter disingenuous, and all but admitting the game wasn't playtested enough. The fact that he's being pushed by Infogrames doesn't matter to me. Firaxis will be hard-pressed to overcome their bad reputation for Civ 3 and PTW.

I'm not going to speculate on what Jeff Briggs was implying or not implying. It's not fair to put words in someone's mouth.

Firaxis has hardly developed a bad reputation for Civ 3. Especially not when you compare their released product to those of companies of the same size, market capitalization, etc. Civ 3 IMHO rocks.

PTW? Well I know I'm happy with it. And I can see why the MP community has been fairly displeased. But for my money -- and for the majority of those that bought it, the SPers -- I am happy.

vmxa1 · December 3, 2002, 14:24

Watched Extended Play last nigh right after reading the thread and logging off. They gave PTW a 2 out of 5 and said that even if they fix the bugs, it is too light for an expansion pack.
But they did say that all of die hard should get it.

vondrack · December 3, 2002, 17:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Brutus66
I just read the Open Letter thread and was pretty surprised by what I saw.

...

I didn't notice much return fire from the old time defenders of the faith like asleepatthewheel, alicecooper or vondrack to name but a few.

Ahhh, this is what one gets for his efforts. And I wrote such a long post on the reality of the gaming industry in that thread... still, it was not enough for you, Brutus...

Glad you like the game now. Really glad. Happy civvin'!

CrONoS · December 3, 2002, 18:41

traelin:

You said:
"I guarantee the overwhelming majority of people that bought PTW did so for the SP improvements"

Maybe some people have money to spend or people are really generous with company?... But I know Civilization it's like for some, a religion, and we have to close our eyes even if they make some bad things...

... cause the SP add-on not worth 30$. I'm sure that it took longuer to make the TETurkhan Mod than the new add-on in Civ3 PTW(Single Player). You understand, for 30$ buck(US)... the SP not worth what we/you paid.
All the scenario are just some rip-off burned on CD, and burn with some errors(like missing file), new civilization are easy to made by yourself, the new stacks command are just a things that can be give in a patch... The only thing that make PTW worth paying 30$(US) or44$(CDN) bucks is the MP plus SP Improvement...

I bought it, cause I love Civilization, and I wanted to play good game with friend. Play with human it's totally different to play with CPU.

I just really dont think the PTW Single Player worth 30$, otherwise you have money to spend, if yes, please send me money!!!I want to pay my school debt FAST!!

have a nice evening

Tuberski · December 3, 2002, 19:12

Quote:

Originally posted by notyoueither
I think the 'Good to see you back!' bit is his entry in the irony of the century award.

Either that, or he is getting very clever in hunting for +1.

Coracle has always been entertaining, whether I agreed with him or not.

And I just got a 10% PCR last week, so I try to avoid the + one.

ACK!

Switch · December 3, 2002, 20:06

Quote:

Originally posted by cronos_qc
But I know Civilization it's like for some, a religion, and we have to close our eyes even if they make some bad things...

It's true. I'll admit, on occasion I"ve turned a blind eye on some of the mistakes amde by Firaxis. I just couldn't admit that my most anticipated game wasn't perfect....far from, in fact

.

BUT....With PtW v1.14f, it is VERY close to perfection (but, I'm also a SP guy)

.

CrONoS · December 3, 2002, 20:39

switch:
Ya true, with patch 1.14f, the expansion is pretty better... and with a "maybe" future next patch, the game will work perfectly...

Have a nice day

Brutus66 · December 3, 2002, 21:30

Yes, Coracle, I can't argue with several of your points. They did rip us off in a few ways- the whole limited edition tin thing, putting off mp for an expansion, etc.

Personally I think computer games are very overpriced to begin with. You get a cd that's worth pennies, a pamphlet of a manual (so they can rip you on a "strategy guide") and an oversized box. You don't even get a jewel case for the cd anymore with most games- just a paper sleeve. And to top it all, pushing unfinished products out is getting to be the norm. And don't even get me started with how aggravating CD keys or checks are. One quick trip to Computer Gaming World and they are rendered useless- the only purpose they serve is to inconvenience.

My point in my post was that I think the game, after all the patching, as far as LAN and sp play is concerned, is a lot of fun. The patching should not have been necessary to an extent, but I understand that they would want to tweak some things in accordance with popular demand, so a couple patches I can overlook.

I am not entirely satisfied, and I don't think I ever could be unless I designed the game myself and was able to put in everything I think it needs and changed the rules, etc. to my liking.

Maybe when artificial intelligence is perfected, and computer players acted in a way that was truly logical and reasonable for world leaders...maybe when Civ XXIV is released we might get everything we want and achieve nirvana, but I can't wait that long.

Brutus66 · December 3, 2002, 21:33

Sorry Vondrack, your name just sprang to mind...I should have been more careful (and known better).

asleepathewheel · December 3, 2002, 22:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Brutus66
My point in my post was that I think the game, after all the patching, as far as LAN and sp play is concerned, is a lot of fun. The patching should not have been necessary to an extent, but I understand that they would want to tweak some things in accordance with popular demand, so a couple patches I can overlook.

I am not entirely satisfied, and I don't think I ever could be unless I designed the game myself and was able to put in everything I think it needs and changed the rules, etc. to my liking.

Maybe when artificial intelligence is perfected, and computer players acted in a way that was truly logical and reasonable for world leaders...maybe when Civ XXIV is released we might get everything we want and achieve nirvana, but I can't wait that long.

I agree.

Glad you like the game. It will never be perfect, but what is?

The Templar · December 3, 2002, 23:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Traelin
Fifty dollars is a joke in a capitalist's grand scheme of things. Anyone that has fifty bucks to spend on a game should feel himself/herself fortunate. And for the replayability of Civ 3, fifty bucks is a huge joke. Look at the sales figures and return figures.

How true, how true.

Quote:

Originally posted by Traelin
Well then you may as well never own a CPU, because you'll never be happy with any OS. Every OS is buggy, regardless of how many patches are released.

Try MacOS X - never had a problem with it (except finding software).

Coracle · December 3, 2002, 23:56

Quote:

Originally posted by The Templar

Try MacOS X - never had a problem with it (except finding software).

Glad you brought that up. Microsoft has often produced faulty products, one of the worst being that hunk of junk Windows Me. That was fifty dollars right down the toilet.

They didn't tell you upon installing it you have to begin searching the Web for various drivers, downloading them, and installing them. A huge pain. Worse, the company that made my moden had NO driver for Windows Me - and all MS could do was tell me to basically experiment with other drivers! Their customer service stunk out loud, and they made no acceptable offer of compensation.

So Windows Me, also an unstable OS, was a bigger hunk of junk than Civ 3 was a year ago.

I wouldn't care if I paid fifty CENTS for either. I will not quietly accept being ripped off.

BTW, the Diplomatic/Trade AI in Civ 3 still is lousy and braindead.

Traelin · December 4, 2002, 00:19

Quote:

Originally posted by cronos_qc
I just really dont think the PTW Single Player worth 30$, otherwise you have money to spend, if yes, please send me money!!!I want to pay my school debt FAST!!

have a nice evening

Hehe no way dude, I'm still paying off my school loans!

I understand your frustrations, but for me I'm pleased with the XP. I can understand how MP people are frustrated though.

Traelin · December 4, 2002, 00:24

Quote:

Originally posted by The Templar
Try MacOS X - never had a problem with it (except finding software).

Damn, you stole my thunder.

I was immediately going to jump up and say "Umm, where are you going to find any support for it?"

MacOS X is pretty stable. One of my former managers swore up and down that it was the best thing since sliced bread. But I always found it interesting that he was running Win2K emulators on top of it.

The main problem with Apple was that they had great innovators (except their ahem "borrowing" of Windows-esque OS's from Xerox), but they had idiots for marketers.