BRC's game

[Dominae]

The purpose of this thread is not only to comment on BRC's game as Cleopatra, but to discuss our underlying playstyles. So, if you think your "style" warrants mention, speak up!

BRC, I hope you don't mind that I created this new thread and posted a few screenshots...Let me know if you do.

There are four comments I'd like to make on this first shot:

1. Defenders

Given that enemy forces can only move 1 or 2 tiles per turn inside your borders, it will take them a minimum of 3 turns to reach either Memphis or Alexandria. This is more than enough time to muster a significant defense agains the AI (since their "sneak" attacks usually only include a couple of units). Your Musketmen are more valuable on the front, where they might actually see battle. My military is small because I use almost all my military units in every campaign.

2. Irrigation

Unless you've got a very good reason, all Grassland tiles should have mines on them. Food is important at the beginning of the game, but after expansion you can never have too many Shields.

3. Spacing

A disadvantage of the "perfect" city spacing that you appear to be using is that it leaves gaps between clusters. Consider the unused tiles between Giza, Alexandria, Memphis and Heliopolis. If you're spacing is a little tighter, you will have overlap, but then again you will be using all tiles inside your borders. Plus, you'll more cities overall.

4. Tundra

That unclaimed land to the South is admittedly not very good real estate, but I would build cities there anyway. You're most certainly over the OCN, so a few extra cities won't hurt. Remember that Barbarians can come out of the darkness at any stage of the game. Also, the AI has an annoying tendency to claim any unused land, no matter how far from their homeland. Claim it yourself ASAP.

[Dominae]

Another set of comments with a screenshot:

5. Expansion

Personally, I always try to expand as long as there is availalble land, usually in the direction of the other civs. The large area of unclaimed land is a perfect chance to expand your empire. Don't worry about founding cities while at war, if you're winning there's no way the enemy is going to capture them. Your border cities, while not very productive, should at least be good military bases from which to attack the next target (Babylon, in this case). To this end, I often rush Barracks, Harbors, Temples and even Walls in my border towns. The longer you wait to expand, the fewer turns you have those extra cities under your control. Universities are great, cities are better (even corrupt ones).

6. Conquest

The other civs on your continent are weak compared to you. This may be because you've focused on scientific and economic improvements, but mostly probably it's due to your larger land area. When the AI is weak, that's a good time to strike. There is fine balance between knowing when to fight and knowing when to build, but in this case you can probably clear your continent without construction another building. My suggestion is therefore to hit Military Tradition, mass-produce Cavalry until you're the master of your domain. After that, build boats, conquer the Iroquois, game over. In this game, you're powerful enough that the choice between warmongering and building doesn't really matter, but when the AI is strong, you'll usually want to go on the offensive.

7. FP

Your Palace and Forbidden Palace placements are really good. I assume you built the FP by hand and rushed the Palace with a Leader. Good work! One thing you may want to consier is moving your Palance again, up towards the Babylonians. This will allow you to get those future cities up and running. The downside is that you lose the productivity of a few cities for a while. Also, you need to blow a Leader, which may or may not be an option.

[Dominae]

A final post:

8. Wonders

Yup, you're a Wonder freak! Now ask yourself: if you'd spent all those Shields on Knights, how much more of your continent would you control by now? I believe the answer is: "a lot", and that's good enough for me. All those Wonders are certainly useful, but mostly just icing on the cake at this point. In particular, the combination of J.S Bach's Cathedral, the Sistine Chapel and 7 of the 8 Luxuries is excessive. Unless you need to be in WLTKD for some reason, it's enough to have more Happy citizens than Unhappy ones (to prevent Civil Disorder).


All this said, you're having a fine game and definitely doing a lot of things right. Seriously make the jump to Emperor...my comments will make a lot more sense, then.


Dominae

[vmxa1]

Makes sense to me Dominae. That Tundra could be the best source of oil and I surely find it easier colonize it than to conquer it after they build there. I prefer to not allow anyone on my land mass, as later they can use that as a staging area to sent in lots of troops. Once you have the whole land mass, they have to land troops and get pounded.

[Dominae]

vmxa1, good points, as usual. I always forget about Oil, yet always seem to have some because I colonize every inch of land. And yes, if the AI has a city on your continent, it knows to land all its forces there, then attack (another thumbs up to Soren).


Dominae

[BRC]

First, Thanks.

Given that enemy forces can only move 1 or 2 tiles per turn inside your borders, it will take them a minimum of 3 turns to reach either Memphis or Alexandria. This is more than enough time to muster a significant defense agains the AI (since their "sneak" attacks usually only include a couple of units). Your Musketmen are more valuable on the front, where they might actually see battle. My military is small because I use almost all my military units in every campaign.

I agree that this is the first thing to change. These cities do not need defenders in them, and I have no intention of going back to needing MP's. Would it be good to have a few horsies (depending on era) running around back here too, or are the defenders in the border cities enough to prevent attacks?

My suggestion is therefore to hit Military Tradition, mass-produce Cavalry until you're the master of your domain.

This is the plan. I already have an empty army waiting for 3 Cavs. Do you think that I should have done this earlier with knights?

Your Palace and Forbidden Palace placements are really good. I assume you built the FP by hand and rushed the Palace with a Leader. Good work! One thing you may want to consier is moving your Palance again, up towards the Babylonians. This will allow you to get those future cities up and running. The downside is that you lose the productivity of a few cities for a while. Also, you need to blow a Leader, which may or may not be an option.

I received an early leader, and was able to build the HE pretty early. Leaders have come pretty quickly in this game. I have been able to keep my elites more protected due to the mountainous terrain up north.

Unless you've got a very good reason, all Grassland tiles should have mines on them. Food is important at the beginning of the game, but after expansion you can never have too many Shields.

I guess I still need a little more help with this. My goal is to get up to 12 pop as quick as possible. That is why I have some irrigation. Later, then I can use the every tile in the city. I only want enough irrigation for this. Am I overestimating the amount of irrigation needed to get and keep the city at size 20?

A disadvantage of the "perfect" city spacing that you appear to be using is that it leaves gaps between clusters. Consider the unused tiles between Giza, Alexandria, Memphis and Heliopolis. If you're spacing is a little tighter, you will have overlap, but then again you will be using all tiles inside your borders. Plus, you'll more cities overall.

In this game, I finally broke down and started overlapping 1 and 2 squares. I cringe with anymore than that, but I realize how valuable those squares could be, especially next to my FP.

That unclaimed land to the South is admittedly not very good real estate, but I would build cities there anyway. You're most certainly over the OCN, so a few extra cities won't hurt. Remember that Barbarians can come out of the darkness at any stage of the game. Also, the AI has an annoying tendency to claim any unused land, no matter how far from their homeland. Claim it yourself ASAP.

Just as a side note, the game is with Sedentary Barbs. When I usually leave land aside like that, the AI swoops in. That hasn't happened yet. Normally, I let them build and at somepoint the city flips to me. If not then I take it by force. You believe it is better to just claim it? Should I space these cities fairly close together, as they will not grow?

The other civs on your continent are weak compared to you.

I have been trimming all of them back. The Ottomans started right next to me and I went after them immediately. I made peace once, and then finished them off after 20 turns. Then on to the Romans and the Greeks to secure luxuries and resources. The Carthaginians finished off the Greeks, which is why I am currently at war with them. They were beginning to get a little to close to me. The Babylonians actually were looking tough until I found out that their whole army was made up of bowmen. I sent some Knights in and pillaged a luxury or two and maybe some iron. I took 2 or 3 cities, got a leader, got some workers. You think it's time to go for the kill?

Do you think that I would be in a better position (with regard to the Iroquois) if I would have just assaulted my continent with the Knights?
The end of the game is not in doubt anymore, but I think that I will play this through to the modern ages. How effective is precision bombing??? Thank you very much Dom.

[BRC]

Makes sense to me Dominae. That Tundra could be the best source of oil and I surely find it easier colonize it than to conquer it after they build there. I prefer to not allow anyone on my land mass, as later they can use that as a staging area to sent in lots of troops. Once you have the whole land mass, they have to land troops and get pounded.

Ok. I will go ahead with the colonization of the tundra right away.
Thanks for your input.

And yes, if the AI has a city on your continent, it knows to land all its forces there, then attack (another thumbs up to Soren).

I was not aware of this. I have yet to come up against a real "invasion" by the AI. If this is true, then it would definately make sense to keep the AI's cities away from yours. Especially without troops in the interior cities.

Yup, you're a Wonder freak! Now ask yourself: if you'd spent all those Shields on Knights, how much more of your continent would you control by now? I believe the answer is: "a lot", and that's good enough for me. All those Wonders are certainly useful, but mostly just icing on the cake at this point. In particular, the combination of J.S Bach's Cathedral, the Sistine Chapel and 7 of the 8 Luxuries is excessive. Unless you need to be in WLTKD for some reason, it's enough to have more Happy citizens than Unhappy ones (to prevent Civil Disorder).

Which ones do you think are unneccesary? I agree that I will have a lot of content citizens, but I almost feel like Copernicus should be the first to go. And then since I'm religious and I like cathedrals, probably Bachs. Does this make it a little more realistic? A leader was also responsible for one of these, although I probably would have gotten it anyway.

I have never really figured how much WLTKD is helping production. Does anyone know a percent value?? My main goal in the game is to get in control of as many luxuries as possible. The trade that I have going with the Aztecs helps asure that they can stay alive to compete with the Iroquois. I try to keep the AI's in balance.

[Jaybe]

BRC, re towns on the tundra, you just want to get your borders covering the land. No need for a dense build there, as their productivity will be minimal anyway. According to the corruption nazi (alexman), your corruption will take another hit when you reach 1.5 times the OCN. The price you pay when you approach domination, and well worth the trouble, too.

I also prefer to keep reserves, garrisoning at least most of my interior cities. Who knows when you will be forced to change governments, counter an invasion, etc. To some extent, it can be the way you WANT to run your civ as opposed to playing for efficiency, at least for me. Throwbacks from Civ2, I guess.

I know what you mean with the Wonders, I like to have ALL my people happy, too! It adds a bit to your score, in case you're counting. Besides, unless you own them yourself, you never know when some of those luxuries may be absent for awhile.

[Catt]

Originally posted by BRC
I guess I still need a little more help with this. My goal is to get up to 12 pop as quick as possible. That is why I have some irrigation. Later, then I can use the every tile in the city. I only want enough irrigation for this. Am I overestimating the amount of irrigation needed to get and keep the city at size 20?

Two different issues there. Growing "as quick as possible" requires irrigation. But "getting and keeping a city at size 20" requires very little irrigation (and sometimes none at all) [EDIT: when the map gives you wide expanses of grasslands, as has happenede here]. Rememeber that cities always enjoy a 2-food surplus from the get go (the city center) and so will be default grow unless the only available tiles are terrible.

Just looking at the screenshots posted, you seem to have a lot of flatlands -- lots of grasslands and plains, fewer hills and mountains (this is a 5 billion year map, yes?). In the age of RR (when hospitals also arrive, allowing city growth above 12) even irrigated desert produces 2 food -- enough to support a working citizen. The only instance you would ever need any irrigation (other than desert) is when there are tundra (0 food, but convertible to forest for 1 food), hills (1 food) and mountains (0 food) within the city radius. Even a few hills, tundra or mountains might be workable without irrigation if you have a bonus resource like wheat, cows or game in the city. Absent bonus resources, an irrigated, RR'd grassland produces 4 food - enough to support two hill-workers or one mountain worker.

The screenshots posted above indicate to me that you could probably grow each city to size 20 with no more than one irrigated tile (if any) in each of the cities within view. You could have virtually the entire subcontinent mined if you so desired (wouldn't exactly look pretty, but that's someone else's rant ).

Catt

[BRC]

Jaybe: Perfectly clear. Thank you.

Just looking at the screenshots posted, you seem to have a lot of flatlands -- lots of grasslands and plains, fewer hills and mountains (this is a 5 billion year map, yes?).

Nope. 4 Billion. I swear. I was suprised at how well the surrounding terrain cooperated. I was also suprised by the lack of resources. I can usually find them a lot easier.

You could have virtually the entire subcontinent mined if you so desired (wouldn't exactly look pretty, but that's someone else's rant ).

I like the look of mining!

Absent bonus resources, an irrigated, RR'd grassland produces 4 food - enough to support two hill-workers or one mountain worker.

I'm a bonehead. I need to start remembering this. The only thing that saves me is my mass amounts of captured workers. I have about 80 in this game. After RR, I will go back and mine again. Thank you. Tell Deep O I won't mine the shielded ones if I have a choice.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by BRC
Tell Deep O I won't mine the shielded ones if I have a choice.

Ha! Someone has been doing their reading...

'Poly is a great place to improve your game; I expect to see your report on AU 202.


Dominae

[BRC]

'Poly is a great place to improve your game; I expect to see your report on AU 202.

So true! I have chosen the Mongols. I'm gonna try out a little bit of what I saw in your game. Create a new hybrid strategy. BTW, this is my first game with an expansionist civ.

[BRC]

Can someone tell me how to post a screenshot save???

[Dominae]

Originally posted by BRC
Can someone tell me how to post a screenshot save???

Do a screen capture, either using special software or the 'Print Screen' button on your keyboard. Plop the image into an editor, and reduce it to 800x600 (or less). Save it as a JPEG, GIF, or whatever other format 'Poly likes (they appear under the 'Attach File' section when you compose a new post). Make sure the file is under 500000 bytes. Using the Attach File option just mentioned. 'Poly will embed the image into the body of your message.


Dominae

[Theseus]

BRC,

I just have to make the observation... you just started postng frequently here relatively recently, and MAN DO YOU KNOW YOUR SH-T!!

What'd you do, lurk since the beginning of the year??

Seriously, very impressed.

From what I've read / seen of your gameplay, I only have three comments:

1) Try tighter city placement.

2) Continue your journey to the Dark Side.

3) You are totally ready for Emporer.

Good stuff.

[BRC]

What'd you do, lurk since the beginning of the year??

Haha.... close. I've been in this forum reading since the middle of August. Just reading everything that you guys have written.
I've been wanting to thank you for putting together the Must Read Thread at the top. That is the single most important thing for new players to look at. I know.


How much overlap do you play with? I probably will have to get used to it, so give me a little time to get it right. When playing for fun, I'll still probably use the wide spacing, just because it gives me less of a headache.

2) Continue your journey to the Dark Side.

Dominae (thanks again) was able to shed some light on my build cues. I am gonna start putting off most of my banks and universities, so I'm gonna have to find something to fill these spots (Knights and Knights).

I also am gonna drop a few of the medievil wonders in favor of (you guessed it) Knights. I'll let you know how this turns out.

As a side note, who are your favorite civs? I find myself playing with Egypt more and more, but I do not know if they will work best with this new approach.

If Arrian is reading this, I want to let him know that I'm not bailing on "our" approach to the game. (I say "our" because that style is my natural tendency.) I just want to see how good I can be. That might mean trying something new.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by BRC
As a side note, who are your favorite civs? I find myself playing with Egypt more and more, but I do not know if they will work best with this new approach.

Egypt is very powerful, and consequently is a favorite among the regulars here. As you turn to the Dark Side, you learn to appreciate the warmongering civs (as opposed to the builders), such as China, Japan...even the Zulus. You can play any style with any civ, but obviously it's best when you use your strengths to the fullest.

I suggest you try Japan next; the builder side in you will be able to rely on Religious, and the Dark Side will beckon with Militaristic and Samurai.


Dominae

[vmxa1]

You can't go too far wrong with China for a warmongers civ. It has a great UU that comes at a time when you can most benefit from a GA.
Egypt is a great Chief to Regent civ (IMO), but above that level if you disable all but Dominate/Conquest I am not so fond of it. No yelling, I did not mean it can be used.
So to me, how you like to play the games and at what level has a significant impact on what civs are optimal.

[BRC]

I'll give Japan and China a try next. I do like the thought of getting more Elites. I guess I'll just have to see whether I like religious or industrious more.

I still am in the BC's in the AU game, so I'm gonna try and finish that up this week. Not a lot of free time.

Hey, would someone want to write a thread on "The virtues of being expansionist?" I just ask because now would be a great time. I might end up doing one next week, although I'm afraid I would have to think it out a bit.

Are any of the new civs worth it???

[Dominae]

Originally posted by BRC
Hey, would someone want to write a thread on "The virtues of being expansionist?" I just ask because now would be a great time. I might end up doing one next week, although I'm afraid I would have to think it out a bit.

Aeson's 'Scouting' thread sums most of it up. I don't remember if he discusses Granaries, which is the other advantage of the Expansionist trait.

Originally posted by BRC
Are any of the new civs worth it???

Yes. Celts are Vikings are really fun for warmongering; Ottomans are just plain good.


Dominae

[BRC]

Aeson's 'Scouting' thread sums most of it up. I don't remember if he discusses Granaries, which is the other advantage of the Expansionist trait.

Good point.

Yes. Celts are Vikings are really fun for warmongering; Ottomans are just plain good.

I was looking at the Celts. Is their unit overpriced at the beginning of the game?

I guess I'd like to have 3 or 4 civs that I can really do some damage with. How bout you?? (don't say all of them)

[Mazarin]

BRC, the celtic swordsmen are quite expensive...so I wouldn't use them like normal swordsmen/immortals. After two games I played with the Celts, I think, I'd prefer to use them during my second period of war: I normally start with archers or horsemen, then -after my cities have grown big enough to produce these units quickly- I go for the rest of my continent. Later, you can combine them with Knigts to continue a powerfull attack

[Dominae]

Originally posted by BRC
I was looking at the Celts. Is their unit overpriced at the beginning of the game?

Actually I've never tried them, so my opinion is completely based on other peoples' experiences. General consensus seems to be that they're "fairly" priced, meaning you the Gallic is not abusive (which is a good thing). Personally, I would take a Mounted Warrior anyday in SP. Against humans, the 2-defense is probably more worthwhile.

Originally posted by BRC
I guess I'd like to have 3 or 4 civs that I can really do some damage with. How bout you?? (don't say all of them)

Heh, trying to choose your civs so that you can dominate in MP, eh?! I'm still not done trying out the various strategies, which is the best part of civ for me. I would get very bored playing the Romans every game, as some do. In MP, I usually stick to the powerhouses (IMO) like America, China, Iroquois and Aztecs, so I guess those are my favorites. I had a blast in AU202 with the English, though...


Dominae

[BRC]

In MP, I usually stick to the powerhouses (IMO) like America, China, Iroquois and Aztecs, so I guess those are my favorites.

America is a powerhouse??? I guess I need to play around more with expansionist.

I had a blast in AU202 with the English, though...

I chose the mongols. I have horseman running all around, but I'm pretty depressed without Religious or Industrious. I just don't have a whole lot of infrastructure.

Heh, trying to choose your civs so that you can dominate in MP, eh?!

Maybe some day we can give it a go. (Praying for next patch)

Mazarin: Thanks for the input. I'd almost think that you would need something else to occupy your time during the buildup.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by BRC
America is a powerhouse??? I guess I need to play around more with expansionist.

If you have the time, I suggest you try AU202 again with the Americans, at least up until 500-1000AD. My guess is that you'll be impressed. UU? Who needs UUs?




Dominae

[BRC]

If you have the time, I suggest you try AU202 again with the Americans, at least up until 500-1000AD. My guess is that you'll be impressed. UU? Who needs UUs?

I don't need the UU. I need the golden age. Are their any Expansionist Wonders????

A blast with the English, huh. What did they allow you to do in this game that another civ couldn't have??

[Dominae]

Originally posted by BRC
I don't need the UU. I need the golden age. Are their any Expansionist Wonders????

Sure: Colossus, The Great Lighthouse, Magellan's Expedition, Copernicus' Observatory. Actually, the Industrious part is harder to satisfy, since you only have Pyramids, Hanging Gardens and Hoover Dam as triggers.

Originally posted by BRC
A blast with the English, huh. What did they allow you to do in this game that another civ couldn't have??

The personal satisfaction to win with the worst civ. Also, the proof that there is no truly "bad" civ; although I never used the English UU very much (I did build 4 of them!), Expansionist and Commercial were fine traits on the AU202 map (hope that's not a spoiler!).


Dominae

[BRC]

The personal satisfaction to win with the worst civ. Also, the proof that there is no truly "bad" civ; although I never used the English UU very much (I did build 4 of them!), Expansionist and Commercial were fine traits on the AU202 map (hope that's not a spoiler!).

Well, it is good to see that something drives you. No, that's not a spoiler. I have each civ cornered in their respective corners. I need to just start laying cities and make contact overseas, (wherever they are) so that I can upgrade and send the horsies over there.

Sure: Colossus, The Great Lighthouse, Magellan's Expedition, Copernicus' Observatory. Actually, the Industrious part is harder to satisfy, since you only have Pyramids, Hanging Gardens and Hoover Dam as triggers.

Yeah, I'm gonna have to do some experimenting. Maybe in a year the Americans will be my favorite civ. I've always wanted to fly an F-15.

[Konquest02]

I've played the Americans a couple of times, including AU 202. Let me set this straight: they are not my favourite civ (and far from this status. ) But they were great: expansionnist gave me a lot of goodies from the huts and contacts with everyone on my mainland, industrious allowed me to build roads right at the AI and making my archer rush MUCH more easy.

As for the F-15, don't bother. The game is pretty much sealed my then.

--Kon--

[ducki]

Originally posted by BRC
I'll give Japan and China a try next. I do like the thought of getting more Elites. I guess I'll just have to see whether I like religious or industrious more.

I think I made a thread on my leader search - before that, I averaged less than 1 per game.

If you want leaders, concentrate on happiness.
The happier your citizens, the longer you can war.
The longer you war (intelligently), the likelier you are to see leaders.


I was able to maintain a state of war from Horsemen straight through to Cavalry with no Disorder due to having 5 or 6 luxuries and plenty of temples, marketplaces, cathedrals, HG, etc.

I was able to get 5 leaders by Mil. Trad. because I was able to stay at war with only very short respites for shuffling defenders and reinforcements to whatever the new Front was.

Japan was great for this because the Samurai are, at the time you begin using them for offense, also the best defender available aside from Musketeers, so no need to produce pikes or muskets if you don't want - Samurai are as good as muskets for temporary defense and can quickly become part of your invasion force once replaced with a new defender.