Official: Free Market Economics (Repost) - Page 2

Drogue · December 7, 2002, 19:56

No, we haven't surrendered, just that I've already said my arguments. Besides, RP reasons are a big thing to me. And I still want to limit eco-damage, just if we go to FM I will campaign for more stringent controls on excessive mineral production, such as NA's before the rehoming of crawlers.

Method · December 7, 2002, 20:07

after a few pops, NA will be fine. besides, ecodamage caused by market is eliminated somewhat by treefarms, and completely by hybrid forests

free market does NOT reduce the clean mineral limit. besides, as blakes eco damage formula suggests, we should keep one "polluter" base with some empath units to benefit the faction in general (not that i'm saying we should necessarily do this. i myself don't in SP, but then again, i'm not that good

)

Micha · December 7, 2002, 20:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Drogue
No, we haven't surrendered, just that I've already said my arguments. Besides, RP reasons are a big thing to me.

Exactly!

Drogue · December 7, 2002, 20:12

I no FM doesn't reduce clean mineral, but it means anything producing ED (eco-damage) produced much more, so ED will be more prevalent where we have it. Therefore, i have to push harder to keep it under control. I didn't think it was wiped out by hybrid farms, just that damaged caused by terraforming was?

GeneralTacticus · December 7, 2002, 20:21

Correct, Drogue.

Method · December 7, 2002, 20:21

yes. and thus, any extra ED caused by market

Drogue · December 7, 2002, 20:23

No, there's still the extra damage on top of that caused by population, and minerals I thought. FM still increases ED after hybrid farms (but that's way off

)

Method · December 7, 2002, 20:26

no, i don't think so. if you're quoting the datalinks, it's wrong.

GeneralTacticus · December 7, 2002, 20:26

There is no extra damage caused by population.

Drogue · December 7, 2002, 20:29

Ok, sorry, yes it was of datalinks. Does ED still affect damage caused by minerals after hybrid farms then?

GeneralTacticus · December 7, 2002, 20:39

What?

Drogue · December 7, 2002, 20:44

TKG said "ED from market is eliminated... completely by hybrid forests"

Is that true? Is ED from minerals still amplified by FM?

Method · December 7, 2002, 20:51

free market only increases damage caused by terraforming. hybrid forests eliminate damage caused by terraforming. therefore, hybrid forests eliminate extra ED caused by free market

GeneralTacticus · December 7, 2002, 20:51

Quote:

free market only increases damage caused by terraforming. hybrid forests eliminate damage caused by terraforming. therefore, hybrid forests eliminate extra ED caused by free market

No. FM has no effect on terraforming damage (AFAIK). FM amplifies ED caused by minerals.

GeneralTacticus · December 7, 2002, 20:54

Quote:

Is ED from minerals still amplified by FM?

Yes.

Method · December 7, 2002, 20:56

Quote:

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
No. FM has no effect on terraforming damage (AFAIK). FM amplifies ED caused by minerals.

really? maybe i should re-read blake's column...

Method · December 7, 2002, 21:27

Quote:

from the column...(http://apolyton.net/misc/column/175_ecodamage.shtml)
Free Market becomes a viable SE choice even when combined with very high mineral production. Even though Free Market lowers the Planet Rating, a lower Planet Rating only operates to increase any eco-damage that is present. If none is present because you keep the 'clean mineral' limit above the number of minerals your bases produce, Free Market causes no damage at all.

Once you have the technology to build both Tree Farms and Centauri Preserves and know to keep building them as your mineral production mounts, you may build as many boreholes as space allows without fear of eco-damage. Rocky areas that cannot be bored can be mined, roaded and crawled. Other base squares could be converted to condensers/farms/enrichers and crawled. In time, all your workers could be working boreholes, sea squares or be assigned specialist duties. Such a base, combined with either FM, Wealth plus Golden Age, or in the case of Morgan, Wealth alone or Knowledge + Golden Age to produce a +2 economy, will produce 'extreme' amounts of eco-damage-free minerals, raw energy, commerce, and specialist-produced energy credits and labs.
The 'Clean Mineral' strategy!

so you were right GT.

Quote:

DamageFactor = Int{ [Terraforming - Cleanmins1] + [(Minerals - Cleanmins2 + 5*Atrocities) / (1+Goodfacs)] }
Terraforming = [(2*# worked (not crawled) improvements other than kelp farms)+(# of unworked improvements) + 8*Boreholes + 6*Echelon Mirrors + 4*Condensors +1 if a Seabase -#of Forests]/8.
Divide by 2 for presence of a Tree Farm and reduce to 0 for presence of a Hybrid Forest.

Cleanmins = 16 + # Fungal Blooms + # Tree Farms, Hybrid Forests, Centauri Preserves and Temples of Planet constructed by your faction since the first Fungal Bloom.

so building lots of green improvements can eliminate ED completely. and we can rush them with extra FM-cash

Drogue · December 7, 2002, 21:39

Yes, but that only does a certain amount (though please do

).

Please visit The STEP High Garden, especially if you are anti-FM (or anti-killing Planet, it you can seperate the 2).

We can have a happy, harmonious, peaceful existance, all you have to do is Vote Never - You know it makes sense

GeneralTacticus · December 7, 2002, 21:45

Quote:

Yes, but that only does a certain amount (though please do ).

No, if we build enough, ED will be imliminated completely without the need to curtail production - which is definitely a worthy goal.

Drogue · December 7, 2002, 21:48

We can't though. You can only build one of each in each base, so the total is a finite number, and as such, may not eliminate completely ED. I agree it is worthy goal, and exactly what I want. If we can have full production without haveing any ED, then I'm all for it, it's the best of everything

Method · December 7, 2002, 22:04

i'll have to jump in here. even if you sell your centauri preserve, the clean minerals limit will not go down. so you can sell and re-build facilities infinitely to increase the CM limit

Drogue · December 7, 2002, 22:08

But that would be cheating....

Method · December 7, 2002, 22:11

not really. blake suggests it, in fact.

GeneralTacticus · December 7, 2002, 22:11

Quote:

We can't though. You can only build one of each in each base, so the total is a finite number, and as such, may not eliminate completely ED. I agree it is worthy goal, and exactly what I want. If we can have full production without haveing any ED, then I'm all for it, it's the best of everything

Actually, we can completely elminate ED, simply by building a Centauri Preserve in 1 base and then scrapping ti when it's built. Think of it as ongoing environmental research.

Quote:

But that would be cheating....

No, it's not. See above.

Drogue · December 7, 2002, 22:34

Hmmm, who's blake? I still think it's a little iffy. We'll have to put it to the vote anyway.

Method · December 7, 2002, 22:39

who's blake? WHO'S BLAKE??? oh, i suppose you're new to poly, so you're excused

he pretty much wrote the book on terraforming

GeneralTacticus · December 7, 2002, 22:42

Here are the effects of FM, updated for 2206:

1) An increase in income from 24 to 56.
2) Research accelerating from tech every 16 turns to every 10.
3) No Drone Riots.
4) Golden Ages in UNPD, NS, and Mysidia, which will further increase income.
5) Ecodamage will be confined to New Apolyton and Concordia, at level 38, and TBIBTU, at level 8.

Drogue · December 7, 2002, 22:43

And so if he says it's not cheating, it's not? I think it would weigh heavily on my concience.

Method · December 7, 2002, 22:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Drogue
And so if he says it's not cheating, it's not? I think it would weigh heavily on my concience.

it's not really. it's more of a feature, and a wise stategic tool. read here

Drogue · December 7, 2002, 22:45

Quote:

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Here are the effects of FM, updated for 2206:
5) Ecodamage will be confined to New Apolyton, at level 38.

Are you sure? There was eco-damage at other cities (Concordia I think) even before the switch to FM.