Diplomacy Challenge

[Velociryx]

Does anybody remember that old tabletop game, "Diplomacy?" God I loved that game....and I was wondering if it might be possible to do something similar to that in SMAC.

To that end, I was thinking about commissioning a map to be made for us and druming up enough interest to pull in three volunteers for a PBEM Game.....perhaps another inspiration for some fiction??

The gist of it is this:

Each of the Human Players will have a secret set of victory conditions that they must meet in order to win the game. (There won't BE a way for me to win....I'll be playing the PeaceKeepers, and sorta be the global cop....my role will be to uphold the UN Charter, and to attempt to get and keep leadership of the Global council. I will build no secret projects, but if allied to a faction who is threatened, I will respond as a faithful ally could be expected to. Still, I won't go around stirring the pot. Mostly, my presense in the game is supposed to disrupt the plans of anybody out to turn the game into just another bloodfest.

The art of the deal is the name of the game here, and if there's interest in an odd sort of SMAC game, I'm hoping to get some volunteers.

At present, I have one tentative, and we could fill up the roster, but keep in mind that the more human players we have, the slower the game. I was thinking four or five human players?

Comments? Ideas? Volunteers?

-=Vel=-

PS....if there's a surge of interest, then we'll just make multiple games and see how they go! :-)
-V.

[Googlie]

Hey Vel,

You know I'm in (if I could just learn how to play a PBEM)

G.

[Velociryx]

More thoughts on the "Diplomacy" game:

We'll need an outside agent also, so if someone would like to volunteer for that, I'd greatly appreciate it.

The idea is this: I'll come up with at least three "win conditions" for each faction, and rely on the outside agent to maybe come up with a few more.

When I've created these, I'll turn them over to the outside agent who will select each player's "secret win condition" and e-mail them to the players we get....that way I will be not have any advantage (such as knowing which players have which win conditions), and it is my hope that the game will unfold with much mystery and intrigue.....

So far, Googlie and Hroman have both expressed interest in a PBEM in general, and I've got another tentative.....one thing we could also do is play this game out with the splinter factions I created, so if there's interest in that, e-mail me at: Felestro@aol.com and let me know your preferences (for using the original seven vs. the Splinter Groups, and your faction choices for the game. I'll do it on a first come, first serve bases, based on the time stamp of the e-mails, so if you want to make sure you get your "first choice" group, e-mail me!


One of the other responsibilities of the "outside agent" will be to requisition us a map.....whether it's hand made with the faction editor or downloaded from some site or another doesn't really matter much to me, so whichever seems most reasonable to whomever volunteers for that post. And finally, I'll rely on that person to place our various factions on the map. The only thing I'd ask (in the interest of fairness to everyone in the game), is that each faction start off isolated on their own landmass. Planet size, rainfall, worms, etc. and so forth are entirely at this as yet unnamed person's discretion.

Finally, whoever volunteers to get us started will need to play out the first several turns of our game to give us a decent footing. I'd rather not let the computer do it, as we'd end up with lousy bases in terrible locations. I was thinking of perhaps 75 turns of development, putting game start at 2176.....how does that sound to everybody, assuming we can find an interested person to be our outside agent?

We could also perhaps suggest vague expansion styles to be used for our factions (i.e., "I'd like my bases with no overlap", or, "just drop them in every other square and give me as many as I can get" and perhaps even indicate what secret projects, if any, we'd be interested in pursuing.

Other ideas?
-=Vel=-

[Imran Siddiqui]

Um... you've never gone to other forums in Apolyton have you? Go to the main forum page and go all the way down, and find Stories and Diplomacy.. click.

[Velociryx]

Good to see that the old classic is alive and well, and I've been working steadily at applying some of those concepts to SMAC.....
-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

We are now several steps closer. I have received sufficient interest that I have filled all four "human" slots for the game, and there are a few other interested parties besides, so, I will proceed thusly:

I am talking with a couple of people interested in serving as an Outside agent in this type of game. That is excellent, as it seems we will have enough people to run more than one.

Having said that, I have decided to serve as this first game's Outside Agent, and as we gear up for a second game, I will turn it over to someone else to run.

So, I have given all my current players their secret victory conditions and am awaiting comment on them.....this is important to me because the game is meant to be a helluva lot of fun, first and foremost, and if a victory condition just runs totally counter to the way you enjoy playing the game, then let me know and I'll see if there's another one that better suits your playing style.

Having said that, I will move on to some more of the particulars I've been thinking of:

This type of game is rapidly evolving into something which takes SE choices VERY seriously. Many players will read things in their victory conditions that depend on certain specific social choices, making it very important to know exactly what SE choices each faction is operating from at any given point in the game.

Therefore, I would ask that all players SE choices be made a matter of public record. Anytime you make a change to your SE table once the game begins, please log your SE settings in a thread I will set up for announcing turn status. This way, all players will be able to tell at a glance what social choices everybody is running (and I'll post the AI factions' SE choices, updating as needed between rounds).

Since this is, as far as I know, the first SMAC game of its kind, I will also spread a few thoughts around which may or may not prove useful to the players, or to people who may be lurking and considering playing.

The classic Momentum Strategy simply will not work in this game, as you might wind up handing somebody the last element they need in order to win the game (i.e., you could very well shoot yourself in the foot if you are playing, say, Yang, and you take out an AI faction, if some other player's win condition requires that at least one AI faction be destroyed utterly....)

Also, as players begin to close in on their victory conditions, I will make a general announcement to that effect (in much the same vein as the kind of announcement which is made when you declare you're going for the economic win).

This, of course, will change the geo-political landscape of the game (and it will be especially true when more than one player begins to draw close to his/her win conditions). Again, however, as you don't know with any degree of certainty WHAT the player's win condition might be, you will want to think carefully before you act.

Do you pronounce vendetta on the player who is close to the win? Perhaps, but what if his final condition requires that he be at war with all the remaining factions? If that is the case, then you could well hand him the game by acting rashly......all in all then, I expect we'll see quite a lot of political trickery, wheeling and dealing in this game, and I think it will make it a colossal amount of fun for all parties involved....at least, that's what I'm hoping for!

And, it is also my hope that we can spawn a good deal of fiction from the game.

To that end, I intend to set up two separate threads once we get started.

One thread for turn and SE tracking, and the other for running commentary.

I would ask that anything posted in the running commentary section be done "in character" and I leave the particulars up to each player. It might be in the form of a full blown story, or perhaps just a news flash, or "letter to the people of the empire." Doesnt' matter to me.....so long as it's in character, it works for me.

Other ideas, comments, and sugesstions as we draw closer to beginning?
-=Vel=-

[Tokek Belerang]

Er... am I still in time to join in any of this? I can relate fully to Googlie's comment of having to learn PBEM first, but I'd still like to give it a try.

"Must have pact with Miriam and Zakharov both."

Hee.

Kek

------------------
Numquam turbae misceri

[Gayle Storm]

Hey, hey I'm a Believer....

Vel: as discussed (replacing Googlie in game #1)

Gayle

[Googlie]

Vel:

As I've dropped out of game #1 ( )I'm willing to be added to Kek in #2, preference Morgan

Googlie





[This message has been edited by Googlie (edited September 23, 1999).]

i'm on board, too, trying to keep the planetary peace at all costs. Check out the "erehwon" turn tracking for my fledgling attempts in diplomacy

Brother Flo out

[Velociryx]

Hello and welcome Tokek! Of course! The first game has already filled up, but it has prompted me to run another (and possibly more than that). As such, you are the first confirmed player in the second game, and all the faction choices are wide open. E-mail me with your preference!
-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Perfect, and so far, we're at half staff for game #2.....Gaians and Morganites are taken thus far.....two more openings.....any takers?
-=Vel=-
PS.....If we only get a single taker, I'll play one human role so we can get it started....
-V.

[korn469]

anything i can do to help?

korn469

[Velociryx]

Hello Korn! And yes, if you're interested in playing a different kind of SMAC game, we've got two openings left in the second "Diplomacy Game" Thus far, the Gaians and Morganites have been claimed, but the rest are wide open....and, I've got a tentative person wanting to sign up for a third Diplo game (as the Morgans), so hop on board if you are intrigued!
-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

The first Diplomacy game is officially underway, and I have sent the first turn off to Unic, playing the Gaian faction. Guys, check the Multiplayer forum for the Diplomacy1 thread, and post your turn status there, so we can keep track of where the game is.
-=Vel=-

[Fistleaf]

Ideas for Peacekeeper Diplomacy:
1. Play like "UN peacekeepers".
2. No threatening to "crush you like a bug".
3. Must accept all requests from other factions to talk. Must accept all unconditional truce or treaties.
4. Cannot win by conquest or Economic victory.
5. Cannot build PBs or commit atrocities.
6. Must always vote to uphold UN Charter.
7. Must resign if UN Charter is ever repealed, as punishment for your failure to uphold the UN Charter.
8. Newly captured bases that obviously belong previously to a friendly faction must be returned as a gift.
9. Must persuade factions at vendetta to end the war.
10. No espionage attempts on faction not at vendetta with. No framing of other factions for espionage attempt.

This challenge can be played as a normal game too.

Fistleaf,
if it was only a 10 bullet list for the PK's with such trivial conditions....

Brother Flo out

[Velociryx]

Hehehe.....awwwww, you know you love it, Brother Flo!
-=Vel=-

[Jasonian]

I'm interested in joining up on scenario, even though I've never played by e-mail and I'd probably end up as cannon fodder and free bases for the rest of the people... but hey. SOMEONE has to be the cannon fodder!

[Googlie]

Jasonian:

Exactly how I feel having just started two PBEM's

But the beauty of Vel's Diplomacy concept is that maybe preventing any faction from being overrun is a secret victory condition for someone - or pacting or even co-op transcending with your faction is the secret condition for another.

So maybe the Spartan Rover Rush won't make mimcemeat of us (unless of course if it's their victory condition )

Googlie, a fellow PBEM newbie.

I would be willing to join a game. It sounds like it would be fun.

wrlang@dixie-net.com

PBEM newbie

[Googlie]

^

[Velociryx]

Okay, since there is some interest in re-visiting this topic, I'm willing to put another game together. I need four volunteers. I've got one, in the form of DinoDoc. If we get more than four volunteers, then we'll form up a queue til we get another
"set" of four (if we get three players, and they're all in agreement, then we'll run another game with just three humans).

The games will be run SMAC-style, unless it's the unanimous decision of all players in that game to run it SMAC-X.

Anyone interested, e-mail me at Felestro@aol.com with the following four bits of information:

1) The e-mail address you want to have your game sent to

2) If you have SMACX, and, your preference to playing a SMAC or SMACX PBEM

3) Your faction choices in both a SMAC and SMACX PBEM environment

4) What part of the country/world you are in, and how often you will be able to check mail for turns.

"Teams" (the term loosely used here, since all victory conditions will be secret) will begin forming up as soon as I start getting e-mails....

[Velociryx]

About the map: There will be no need for an "outside agent" as I have made a map for us to use. It containes none of the usual landmarks (I've made new ones, using what tools were available in the editor).

-=Vel=-

[zsozso]

I'd like to join the game.

I just emailed it to Vel, but repeat it here for everybody to see and comment on it:

I'd like to play SMACX with the data angles, drones and cyborgs fixed (faction txt editied) so that there supposed but buggy special abilities are operational.

Furthermore I have an idea for a balanced 3-player map:

For a 3 player game, the most balanced map I can imagine is the
following setup. Three identical islands, placed at equal distance
from each other along the equator. No landmark on them, the HQ is
pregenerated with population 3 in the centre of the island. It
should also have some basic infrastructure: recycling tank, creche
and recreation commons (for playing transcend difficulty level).
Each player should start with 5 extra colony pod, 3 scouts and 3
terraformers and all level 1 techs known for everybody. I would
also add 2 big land masses along the north and south edges of the
map containing all the landmarks and an AI faction each (it could
be the Caretakers and the Usurpers in SMACX - just for fun). The
AI factions should be in a lot more advanced infrastructure, e.g.
10 well equipped bases each - but not too many units.

The human player islands should be big enough to hold at least 10 bases.

zsozso

[Googlie]

I'm in - any faction, any game

Googlie

[Chowlett]

This sounds really quite groovy, but before I sign up, I want to check something. My main reason for interest is that "Diplomacy" sounds like an American title for what we in Britain know as "Risk", perhaps with some minor modifications. Can anyone confirm this? Risk is played on a map of the world divided into continents and then further into territories. Missions would consist of such conditions as "Control Africa nad Europe" or "Control 24 Territories" or "Destroy the Red Army, or if you are the Red Army, Control 18 Territories with at least 2 units each".

I presume that if they are the same, the rule about reinforcements is left out as impractical (and anyway, that's why you build them )

If I'm interested, I'll mail Vel.

[Velociryx]

Chowlett: Similar but not the same. Diplomacy is centered in Europe and focused on each player's bid for empire under the pressures of World War.

The meat of the game (indeed, the thing that can make the game utterly fascinating or completely ruin it) are the "backroom deals" that happen during and between each turn. THAT is the feel I'd like to introduce into SMAC.

My goal will be to set up a web of conflicting and yet secret victory conditions for each player (and some of them are quite Byzantine and complex), then turn everyone loose on the map. Of course, since no player knows for certain what the other players' victory conditions are, no one will know what specific actions are bringing the rival player(s) closer to victory, and what actions are meant to be desceptive. Because of that, nearly EVERYTHING will seem desceptive at first.

A caveat to the original idea: If and when you achieve infiltration of another player's datalinks, you come to one of the elements of that player's secret victory condition (though not the entire thing). The Empath Guild does NOT grant this knowledge, as it would make it far too unbalancing in the game.

Remember too, that the game can ONLY end when a player achieves his/her secret victory conditions. None of the usual "win" methods are valid, unless they are tied in with the player's secret win conditions in some way (thus, the game might well continue on past 2500).

Once we get the first group assembled, I'll set the game in motion. The last person in the game round (one complete mission year) will mail me the turn, and I'll log on to the game to check everyone's progress and see how close the players are to satisfying their victory conditions.

Once a player has all but one of his secret victory conditions satisfied, a notification will be sent to all players that infiltrated that player's datalinks....what they do with the information is entirely up to them, but as you can imagine, a piece of information like that can cause new alliances to form in an instant, and old ones to break apart.

Also consider the value of infiltration information....player A and B infiltrate player C's datalinks and each get one of his secret victory conditions. A and B later meet, and in diplomatic discussions B discovers that A has some potentially valuable information. He arranges to purchase the information to get a better assessment of C's victory condition and set himself up to stop him. "A" could care less about C's victory condition, but knows he has something of value, sooo.....

You see how it can go....and it has the makings of a fantastic game!

-=Vel=-




[This message has been edited by Velociryx (edited December 16, 1999).]

I have one question, if the game turns out to be SMACX would you allow selection of any of the alien factions?

Oh and check your mail, I just sent my information.

[Velociryx]

I think for the sake of balance, we'll stick with the human factions only.....in light of all the Alien abilities, I think that might upset the proverbial apple cart.....

-=Vel=-