Thread Tools
Old December 8, 2002, 00:34   #1
SorvinoBackhand
Civilization III MultiplayerCivilization III PBEMCivilization III Democracy GameAlpha Centauri Democracy GameAlpha Centauri PBEM
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 07:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Ohio
Posts: 64
Which is the Best Government for Modern Warfare ?
Ignoring for the moment that the game badly needs more government variety, which goverment do you all play in the long modern wars of late game and why ?
SorvinoBackhand is offline  
Old December 8, 2002, 01:34   #2
Herzog
Spanish CiversCivilization III PBEMPtWDG2 Latin Lovers
Prince
 
Herzog's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH POST-COUNT REDUCTIONS
Posts: 964
Absolutly democracy. The number of cities before corrupcion colapses the system in communism is absurd, and with a decent number of lux resourses, with the use of marketplaces, you can afford a war for 15 or 20 turns before war weariness affects your empire
__________________
"7. Sobre todo tipo de cosas que no entendemos, mejor es callarse" Ludwig Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Phylosophycus
"Mas vale un pajaro en la mano....que papa a los quince"
"No se que armas se usaran en la tercera guerra mundial, pero si se que la cuarta sera con piedras y palos"
"Recuerde, un pais que tiene principios, tiene fin"
Herzog is offline  
Old December 8, 2002, 04:12   #3
GusSmed
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 12:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 60
Generally, whether I'm at war or not is irrelevant to what government I'm using. Yes, war unhappiness is a bit of a problem with Republic or Democracy, but almost always you can offset that with the Luxury slider and still have more income than from Communism or Monarchy.

If I'm playing a Religious civ, I'll switch to Democracy when it becomes available. Otherwise I stick with Republic, since 4-6 turns of zero production and research just isn't worth the minor improvements of Democracy.

The only time I switch governments in a war is if it's been going on so long that I have to pump the Luxury slider to the point that I am losing money even at 10% Science. At that point, I'll switch.

The main benefit of Communism is the ability to pop-rush. There used to be quite a few threads here about how late game Communism was quite powerful if you were just pumping out military units, converting useless population in distance highly corrupt cities into shields.

However, pop-rushing isn't anywhere near as lucrative as it used to be, and you can't pop-rush foreign population anymore, so Communism is pretty much useless these days.

- Gus
GusSmed is offline  
Old December 8, 2002, 06:13   #4
Ijuin
Prince
 
Local Time: 21:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Posts: 420
Democracy can handle a medium-long war provided that you have the Universal Suffrage wonder. With that plus Police Stations, you end up having about as much War Weariness as a Republic would have without either. If I can grab that wonder, then I tend to stick with Democracy throughout the Industrial and Modern ages.
__________________
Those who live by the sword...get shot by those who live by the gun.
Ijuin is offline  
Old December 8, 2002, 15:38   #5
Coracle
Prince
 
Coracle's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 915
Anarchy = more money?
Quote:
Originally posted by SorvinoBackhand
Ignoring for the moment that the game badly needs more government variety, which goverment do you all play in the long modern wars of late game and why ?

I'm not sure which is best, but I read elsewhere when in need of quick cash some players deliberately go into ANARCHY as it supplies more money than Democracy (or Communism?). I assume this would be especially useful during wars.

What do people think of that as a strategy?
Coracle is offline  
Old December 8, 2002, 17:17   #6
Lord Merciless
Warlord
 
Lord Merciless's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 249
Democracy.
Lord Merciless is offline  
Old December 8, 2002, 18:19   #7
Theseus
PtWDG Gathering StormApolyton UniversityApolytoners Hall of FameBtS Tri-LeagueC4DG Gathering StormApolyCon 06 Participants
Emperor
 
Theseus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm!
Posts: 8,907
Quote:
Originally posted by GusSmed
The main benefit of Communism is the ability to pop-rush. There used to be quite a few threads here about how late game Communism was quite powerful if you were just pumping out military units, converting useless population in distance highly corrupt cities into shields.

However, pop-rushing isn't anywhere near as lucrative as it used to be, and you can't pop-rush foreign population anymore, so Communism is pretty much useless these days.

- Gus
What changed? What do you mean you can't poprush foreign poulation?
__________________
The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.

Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.
Theseus is offline  
Old December 8, 2002, 18:25   #8
Jaybe
Mac
Emperor
 
Jaybe's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Henderson, NV USA
Posts: 4,168
Re: Anarchy = more money?
Quote:
Originally posted by Coracle
I'm not sure which is best, but I read elsewhere when in need of quick cash some players deliberately go into ANARCHY as it supplies more money than Democracy (or Communism?). I assume this would be especially useful during wars.

What do people think of that as a strategy?
The only cash flow during Anarchy is what you have in trade agreements with other civs. For example, if you were paying for luxuries, your cash flow would be negative unless you were being paid more for other agreements.

If your treasury is low when you have negative cash flow, the results can be UGLY. I learned my lesson so well the first time, I don't remember whether you lose units, improvements or default on your payments when you run out of funds.
Jaybe is offline  
Old December 8, 2002, 18:37   #9
Datajack Franit
NationStates
King
 
Datajack Franit's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Italia
Posts: 2,036
So monarchy is the key, unless you're into a tech run
__________________
I will never understand why some people on Apolyton find you so clever. You're predictable, mundane, and a google-whore and the most observant of us all know this. Your battles of "wits" rely on obscurity and whenever you fail to find something sufficiently obscure, like this, you just act like a 5 year old. Congratulations, molly.

Asher on molly bloom
Datajack Franit is offline  
Old December 8, 2002, 21:53   #10
DaveMcW
Prince
 
DaveMcW's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 699
Anarchy would be good if you were supporting 1000+ units. But micromanaging that many units is insane.

I once did a modern age OCC conquest in anarchy after the nukes started falling.
DaveMcW is offline  
Old December 9, 2002, 00:53   #11
badams52
King
 
badams52's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: near the magic kingdom
Posts: 1,001
While you'll make money in Anarchy as long as you aren't paying other civs more then you're getting. I think the majority of players are getting much more $$ from the AIs than they are paying out.

The downside, no new units. If you don't have the numbers to take out the AI you're fighting, then you'll start losing substantially when you can't replace those troops in the field.
__________________
badams
badams52 is offline  
Old December 9, 2002, 14:38   #12
joncnunn
Civilization III Democracy GameC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamCivilization III PBEMApolyton UniversityC3CDG Team BabylonApolyton Storywriters' GuildCiv4 SP Democracy GameC4DG SarantiumC4BtSDG Templars
Emperor
 
joncnunn's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Maryland Heights, MO
Posts: 6,188
Democracy is genneraly the best.

But if the war drags on too long, a switch will need to be made to Communism. (And past 50% unhappiness due to Peace Protests, your Democracy/Repubilc may collapse on it's own.)
__________________
1st C3DG Term 7 Science Advisor 1st C3DG Term 8 Domestic Minister
Templar Science Minister
AI: I sure wish Jon would hurry up and complete his turn, he's been at it for over 1,200,000 milliseconds now. :mad:
joncnunn is offline  
Old December 9, 2002, 16:40   #13
ManicStarSeed
C4DG Gathering StormCivilization III Democracy GamePtWDG Gathering StormInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityBtS Tri-League
Prince
 
ManicStarSeed's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: of my banana plantation
Posts: 702
I have had 25+turn wars in Democracy. Only the last 5 turns did I see thos two turn MA become 3 and 4 turn MA. It could have lasted 30-40 turns before WW became a major hinderance.

Mss
__________________
Remember.... pillage first then burn.
ManicStarSeed is offline  
Old December 9, 2002, 17:00   #14
joncnunn
Civilization III Democracy GameC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamCivilization III PBEMApolyton UniversityC3CDG Team BabylonApolyton Storywriters' GuildCiv4 SP Democracy GameC4DG SarantiumC4BtSDG Templars
Emperor
 
joncnunn's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Maryland Heights, MO
Posts: 6,188
I'm thinking that the number of combats involved is a factor in addition to the number of turns.

In the same game, I had a 40 turn do-nothing war with no protests breaking out as all.
(One of those AI lands on your property, declares war when you ask them to leave, you kill them there the same turn as there's no follow up by either side, except the AI isn't willing to settle for peace for 40 turns.)

But just as I was nearing completing reserach of the last part, I had a second war, except I followed thru with a modern era counter invasion and had protests break out in 3 turns, got to 50% peace protests in 10 turns, and barely accomplished all military objetives and declared peace in time to keep my Democacy from collapsing.

Quote:
Originally posted by ManicStarSeed
I have had 25+turn wars in Democracy. Only the last 5 turns did I see thos two turn MA become 3 and 4 turn MA. It could have lasted 30-40 turns before WW became a major hinderance.

Mss
__________________
1st C3DG Term 7 Science Advisor 1st C3DG Term 8 Domestic Minister
Templar Science Minister
AI: I sure wish Jon would hurry up and complete his turn, he's been at it for over 1,200,000 milliseconds now. :mad:
joncnunn is offline  
Old December 9, 2002, 17:00   #15
Dominae
BtS Tri-LeaguePtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering StormApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Dominae's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,017
You also get income from Taxmen and Scientists when in Anarchy, in addition to any gpt deals you have with other civs. Furthermore, it is possible to complete improvements and units via Forest-chopping.


Dominae
Dominae is offline  
Old December 9, 2002, 18:09   #16
Worthingtons
Prince
 
Local Time: 12:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Pride Park,Derby
Posts: 393
in the modern age there is something called Nukes. If you use these democracy isnt an option. Even if you do have Sistine Chappel,J.S Bach's and Cure for Cancer with all the luxuries!!
__________________
Up The Millers
Worthingtons is offline  
Old December 9, 2002, 19:09   #17
Jaybe
Mac
Emperor
 
Jaybe's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Henderson, NV USA
Posts: 4,168
joncnunn, the popularly held conception is that combat LOSSES contribute to WW. That's what makes bombardment and cruise missiles so popular.
__________________
JB
I play BtS (3.19) -- Noble or Prince, Rome, marathon speed, huge hemispheres (2 of them), aggressive AI, no tech brokering. I enjoy the Hephmod Beyond mod. For all non-civ computer uses, including internet, I use a Mac.
Jaybe is offline  
Old December 10, 2002, 02:04   #18
DaveMcW
Prince
 
DaveMcW's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 699
Your losses (units and cities) and units in enemy territory (both yours and theirs) contribute to war weariness.

Breaking a peace treaty before 20 turns is up immediately restores WW to the pre-treaty levels.
DaveMcW is offline  
Old December 10, 2002, 02:45   #19
Mad Bomber
King
 
Mad Bomber's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 1,119
with war weariness, remember that the amout of allies and enemies that you have are factors in WW. If you are facing a multiple front war and are all by yourself, you will be facing significantly more WW than if you are leading a coalition to get rid of an 'evil' civ.

Rothy:

I have used nukes as a demo and it doesn't hurt nearly as bad as you would think. Especially if they use the nukes first.

dominae:

you can also disband units to complete improvements in anarchy
__________________
* A true libertarian is an anarchist in denial.
* If brute force isn't working you are not using enough.
* The difference between Genius and stupidity is that Genius has a limit.
* There are Lies, Damned Lies, and The Republican Party.
Mad Bomber is offline  
Old December 11, 2002, 13:01   #20
badams52
King
 
badams52's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: near the magic kingdom
Posts: 1,001
Dominae, MadBomber:

But I'd like to see you create an army of tanks or MAs when in anarchy.
__________________
badams
badams52 is offline  
Old December 11, 2002, 13:44   #21
Dominae
BtS Tri-LeaguePtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering StormApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Dominae's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,017
Quote:
Originally posted by badams52
Dominae, MadBomber:

But I'd like to see you create an army of tanks or MAs when in anarchy.
Given enough Forest and obsolete Stone-age Warriors...anything is possible!


Dominae

Last edited by Dominae; December 11, 2002 at 14:40.
Dominae is offline  
Old December 11, 2002, 14:30   #22
DaveMcW
Prince
 
DaveMcW's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 699
Quote:
Originally posted by Dominae


Given me enough Forest and obsolete Stone-age Warriors...anything is possible!


Dominae
I can see it now... "AU 203: Anarchy Works Best".

Goal: win the game while switching to permanent anarchy as soon as possible!
DaveMcW is offline  
Old December 11, 2002, 14:43   #23
Dominae
BtS Tri-LeaguePtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering StormApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Dominae's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,017
Quote:
Originally posted by DaveMcW
I can see it now... "AU 203: Anarchy Works Best".

Goal: win the game while switching to permanent anarchy as soon as possible!
Say, that's not a bad idea! Anarchy obviously doesn't "work best", but maybe it's possible to win the game on Chieftan or Warlord in Anarchy. Of course, we would have to create a scenario such that Anarchy is the starting government. Hmm...




Dominae
Dominae is offline  
Old December 12, 2002, 01:28   #24
badams52
King
 
badams52's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: near the magic kingdom
Posts: 1,001
Quote:
Originally posted by DaveMcW


I can see it now... "AU 203: Anarchy Works Best".

Goal: win the game while switching to permanent anarchy as soon as possible!
I'd have to tip my hat to anyone who could win such a scenario. Even on cheiftain, I think it's darn near impossible. I think conquest or domination would be the only possible victories one could achieve in permanent anarchy
__________________
badams
badams52 is offline  
Old December 12, 2002, 17:17   #25
Mad Bomber
King
 
Mad Bomber's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 1,119
Quote:
Originally posted by DaveMcW


I can see it now... "AU 203: Anarchy Works Best".

Goal: win the game while switching to permanent anarchy as soon as possible!

Anyone who can win with this senerio will ascend to godhood in the CIV 3 universe.

Hope you have plenty of forest...
__________________
* A true libertarian is an anarchist in denial.
* If brute force isn't working you are not using enough.
* The difference between Genius and stupidity is that Genius has a limit.
* There are Lies, Damned Lies, and The Republican Party.
Mad Bomber is offline  
Old December 13, 2002, 06:43   #26
georges bonbon
Warlord
 
Local Time: 12:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 169
I am going for republic.

And by the way, I always try to keep my GA for the last 150 years of the game. I sometimes refuse less interesting GW for fear of clinching GA.

So when you are technically ahead, go for the Internet and start fighting 20 years before it is build. With GA you can go on fighting for another twenty years without problems.

Try it.
georges bonbon is offline  
Old December 13, 2002, 16:26   #27
Mad Bomber
King
 
Mad Bomber's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 1,119
Quote:
Originally posted by georges bonbon
I am going for republic.

And by the way, I always try to keep my GA for the last 150 years of the game. I sometimes refuse less interesting GW for fear of clinching GA.

So when you are technically ahead, go for the Internet and start fighting 20 years before it is build. With GA you can go on fighting for another twenty years without problems.

Try it.
No doubt that A late GA is the most productive overall, but I am of the view that any GA is a great GA. An early GA is great for REX. A middle or industrial GA is great for wonder building, and a late GA is great for cash hoarding, and making production sky through the roof. Of course all GA's are good for unit production and warmongering. The only bad GA is the one you do not get. Personally I like to get my GA with the Americans right after I switch to republic, when you get it at this time your overall REX phase doubles in effectiveness at the expense of the other civ's on your continent and its even more effective on a pangea map.
__________________
* A true libertarian is an anarchist in denial.
* If brute force isn't working you are not using enough.
* The difference between Genius and stupidity is that Genius has a limit.
* There are Lies, Damned Lies, and The Republican Party.
Mad Bomber is offline  
Old December 14, 2002, 01:44   #28
Zero
PtWDG Glory of WarInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamACDG The Human HiveC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamACDG3 SpartansPtWDG2 Monkey
King
 
Zero's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Halloween town
Posts: 2,969
The best warring govt is monarchy or communism.

If you can deal with WW as rep/demo great, but if ur in a serious war, mostly likely WW will be too overwhelming for u.

If its light war, Democracy may be viable
If its a bit heavier Republic may be viable (they seem to hanle WW better IMO.. is this true?)

If its any full fledged war, either crank lux up as either of those govt or pick monarchy or communism. Communism may be a better choice for big civ, even though you cant rush buy.
__________________
:-p
Zero is offline  
Old December 14, 2002, 03:04   #29
Mad Bomber
King
 
Mad Bomber's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 1,119
Quote:
Originally posted by Calc II
The best warring govt is monarchy or communism.

If you can deal with WW as rep/demo great, but if ur in a serious war, mostly likely WW will be too overwhelming for u.

If its light war, Democracy may be viable
If its a bit heavier Republic may be viable (they seem to hanle WW better IMO.. is this true?)

If its any full fledged war, either crank lux up as either of those govt or pick monarchy or communism. Communism may be a better choice for big civ, even though you cant rush buy.

I must admit that until recently I have not seen the value of Monarchy but I feel now that Monarchy may be the best warring government.

The difference between the two in my opinion is the cash buy option. Have you ever tried to launch an invasion across the deep blue, get to the continent, take a town, and realize that you can't rush an airport there due to the fact you have to whip the populace?
__________________
* A true libertarian is an anarchist in denial.
* If brute force isn't working you are not using enough.
* The difference between Genius and stupidity is that Genius has a limit.
* There are Lies, Damned Lies, and The Republican Party.
Mad Bomber is offline  
Old December 14, 2002, 03:30   #30
DaveMcW
Prince
 
DaveMcW's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 699
Quote:
Originally posted by Mad Bomber

No doubt that A late GA is the most productive overall, but I am of the view that any GA is a great GA.
I disagree, a late GA is the LEAST productive!

A despot GA turns all your 1-shield tiles into 2-shield tiles. Mined shielded grasslands don't get any benefit, so I'll call the average production increase +80%.

A middle age GA gives all your tiles the +1 shield bonus, but by this time you are working hills and forests which already give a lot of shields. So it's more like a +70% production increase.

After railroads the average tile makes 2-3 shields, so +1 more from the GA is not that great. The production increase averages around +40%.
DaveMcW is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:17.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team