Going for 500 AD landings on standard maps

[solo]

SG(2),

You're right, only 7 techs, but all of them are good ones. Sorry about my miscount. I had another actually having 8 techs, but after playing for awhile, could not find the purple civ. Turns out they were left out of that game. This is odd, but I have seen this happen before, when you start with many techs: no purple civ to key on.

BM,

I have looked for a few more details that you were asking about.

First a slight correction. I had to wait at size 8 for a bit before continuing the celebration, and had not built that aqueduct as quickly as I mentioned in my previous post.

Here is some more info about that game:

1100 BC Copernicus and Atlanta at size 9 and moving up.

600 BC Sir Isaac's, size 21, helpers almost at size 6, 3 trade routes established with Rome

525 BC switch to Democracy

425 BC Colossus

375 BC Road route to Rome complete, arrows for the 3 trade routes jump from 9 to 13 each, 1 turn advances from science commence. Techs acquired so far: 35


In a previous post I made the comment that the Rome routes need to be established first, so they stick. This is usually true for routes 2 and 3, but for the first route, you can trade elsewhere first to get a little gold. In this game I did that with copper sent to Kyoto. Following that were the 3 routes to Rome, the last delivery replacing Kyoto with Rome as route #1. Afterwards, all trade was with Japan for big payoffs, even though all routes continued to stick with Rome.

Another note I meant to add was that I'm pretty sure the AI can not "see" city flags, having no clue as to whether a city is defended or not. I've concluded that all they know about me is that I am rated Supreme and that I have been friendly and generous with tech gifts, since each time I make contact I gift enough tech to make them worshipful. When they demand tech I also appease. Another thing that may help keep them docile is that I give them all Republic, and many switch to this more peaceful kind of government shortly afterwards.

All this has worked for me in many games played, without an AI surprise attacks. You just have to remember not to let their attitudes slip too low.

[Bloody Monk]

Hello Solo,
Sorry for the delay in replying. Thank you for your good words of advice. It is very helpful.

Originally posted by solo
BM,

1) When you are rated Supreme and are keeping the neighboring AI attitudes high enough with tech gifts, they will not attack. You have to play this way enough to feel secure about this, but I assure you that they can be kept peaceful through tech gifts up until you launch your space ship.

This is very valuable advice, and only experience lets one overcome the counter-intuitive aspect. If you ever write the "Solo Protocol" (RE: Paulicy)on Early Landing Strategy, this point should be prominent and early for the sake of folk like me. It never occurred to me to even think about doing it this way.

Originally posted by solo
Earlier in this game, when I felt more vulnerable, I did have some warriors in some cities long enough to get my temples established, but disbanded them right afterwards to help rush caravans and to free up the shields they were hogging.

Yep; this would have been a better plan. Only build unit where needed for martial law until temple is built.

Originally posted by solo
2) How to deal with ships is a major consideration...

For these reasons I prefer an SSC with coastal access, allowing ships built nearby to be rehomed. Washington was on the coast for this reason.

This section on ships (snipped for space considerations) is excellent. On this point, I really missed the "boat". Having Wash on the coast would have been much more efficent.

Originally posted by solo
3) Yes, 13 techs seemed a bit low to me, even when you consider your delay getting to Republic. 17 sounds about right to me, when comparing games.

Huts act funny sometimes (and thanks to hutfinder I zero in on them as quickly as I can with two early triremes). In the game I played with SG's map, I always seemed to be getting advanced tribes. In my first game with this map, I kept getting techs from huts. In my 476 game, I was getting more than my fair share of gold.

The hutfinder program (thanks again, SG[1] ) is a great tool for hut rich maps. It was very helpful to me also. I have received a good balance of hut results, with fewer advanced tribes. This was good in the sense of not causing the 'too many city' unhappiness problems or in draining gold to rush a settler and be rid of the unwanted mud hole. It was very distressing to have a resulting NON settler get killed by barbs, though. And I'm still hoping for a second settler to become "New Orleans."

Originally posted by solo
4) In the save, you'll see a trireme headed to Japan with a caravan from Atlanta. By the time it was delivered, Atlanta had already celebrated up high enough in size to give a good payoff (several hundred gold), which allowed me to rush the aqueduct, just before it was needed to continue the celebration.

In my last post, I forgot to mention that my very first SSC caravan was shipped to an overseas AI, because the need for gold is greatest at this point in the game. It was the following three, delivered to Rome after a connecting road was in place, that gave me the high continuing trade route bonus. (This happened much later). In between these events, many caravans that were produced by Atlanta were used to contribute towards wonders being built there.

Thanks for this point. I was not so proficient in building camels to think about early offshore trading. (Probably got a lot less gold from huts.) Also, my boats were out exploring and not close by. I have been using Atlanta's camels for WOW as you suggest.

On the Rome routes, do you mean to say that you did not begin delivery until after the road was done?? Somewhat related to this, I have used a few camels that were demanded in Atlanta for homeland routes to help Atlanta grow. (More Happy Heads) This may not have been a good trade off, as there are WOW's yet to be built.

Next, I will provide the .sav you asked for with some "explanation". Any comments would be welcome.

[Bloody Monk]

Solo,
At the end I'll attach a save from b775.

I used your scheme for cities and names for ease of comparison. Some of them came at different times and I renamed them to comply. In general, build orders are 'tickled' when gold is available. My focus has been to build camels to complete WOW ASAP; and to explore.

I built the mine at Atlanta out of sequence, I think. The shields are good but not enough irrigation has been done there. I had to "two turn rush" a harbor to keep growing for lack of food. I allowed a few cities to grow a little to aid getting camels quicker. My plan is to build them down with a settler and then coloseums. Lots of white goods to be built in Atlanta along with trade routes.

Barbs have been a problem, although, by coming after me, Paris is still 'blue.' New York, SF, and St Louis have all been raided and I had to kill two of the stacked kings. Got the other one though!!

Paris has been sending, and I have been expelling, a dip into the Chicago area every four turns for a millineum. For that I was glad I had a warrior in the house. Also, Rome and the Mongols were at war forever. So, I sent some of the hut units I got in the landmass above the Aztecs to their cities so my "offending" units could be sent to my homeland, just in case the Barbs keep coming. Horses won't last against Barb Legions, but they may give me time to rush a defender. Looking for spots to post a few units around AI cities to scoop a King if I can.

I made an alliance with Rome early on thinking I needed to protect Bluffalo. And while I have gotten some gold from them during the Republic, and gold has always been a problem, I wish I had known sooner about the suggested "defense thru gifts" plan. Your alliance with Japan looks better to me.

Well, enough of my babble. Here's the .sav. Any suggestions you may have are welcome.

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by solo
BM,

I have looked for a few more details that you were asking about.

First a slight correction. I had to wait at size 8 for a bit before continuing the celebration, and had not built that aqueduct as quickly as I mentioned in my previous post.

Here is some more info about that game:

1100 BC Copernicus and Atlanta at size 9 and moving up.

600 BC Sir Isaac's, size 21, helpers almost at size 6, 3 trade routes established with Rome

I'm not doing as well, though I'm not unhappy with my progress learning this new system. I hit size 8 in 1300; Cope's finished in 1050; and size 9 in 950.

I haven't reached 600 yet, but I won't be too far behind for Ike's. But the rest is probably going to be some time off. I am going by the assumption that I'll need coloseums to get helpers to size 6--right??

Can't see having enough gold to get them built in that time frame. Same goes for the three routes. Maybe the routes will pay well; but, it looks like Atlanta offers nothing demanded by Rome. I haven't had copper as a supply, for instance.

Thanks for the rest of the timeline to 375 and the bits on Rome trade and managing the AI. I have been giving gifts as needed and I have also noticed that exchanging maps seems to improve their disposition.

One of the things I am enjoying about this style of play is the simplicity and relative quickness of city management. I think I'm getting hooked...and that's okay.

[solo]

Hi SG(2),

Thanks for the encouragement, but I am sure that Samson is quietly cooking up some new early landing strategies that will blow away anything new I am able to come up with.

He lurks! Sooner or later he will swoop in with the news of how to do it best!

Hi BM,

I had some time to look over your save and have read over your comments. Your game is progressing pretty well, and you are likely to build Sir Isaac's before I was able to. Looks like you will reach size 21 at about the same time, too. Not bad at all, for the first time using early landing strategies. 500 AD may be a bit out of reach, but I foresee an excellent result, with a landing before 1000 AD, a barrier once thought to be imprenetable.

You have discovered another of my best kept secrets, which is that a harbor is the quickest way to provide extra food and trade arrows needed to keep a quickly growing SSC fed and content. Harbors are cheap, and when rushed, instantly provide these benefits. As you noticed, it takes time to road and irrigate non-ocean SSC tiles, and I agree that your mine was probably not the best idea. In my newest game, where most helpers lacked sufficient grassland for rapid expansion, I have used harbors to solve that problem, and haven't needed to build as many settlers and engineers as usual.

As for Rome routes, the idea is not to meet demand, as much as it is to establish the huge continuing trade route bonus, that comes by having a connecting road and railroad between the SSC and an AI city. Any three commodities will do for establishing these 3 routes, and it does not matter whether they are set up before or after the road is completed. Check out the number of trade arrows produced by my Rome routes in the final save for the 476 game, and you'll see what I mean.

However, your internal routes will be half as good for this route bonus, and because you traded demanded commodities, you probably got more than the piddly amount of gold I did when I set up my 3 routes with Rome. In a way, I have always been a bit saddened by these low cash payoffs, using caravans that could have brought in hundreds in demanded trade with overseas AI, but that route bonus MORE than compensates.

When I speak of rushing, I usually mean doing this in an incremental way, as this conserves gold. Strictly speaking, when an improvement is "rushed", we mean it is built from scratch in one turn, but most rushing I do is in two steps for city improvements, and a line of shields per turn for camels and other units. There is hardly ever enough gold in early landing games to do 1 turn rushes.

I noticed that some of your helpers have started growing, and it may be a little early for doing this. However, your idea of building settlers to coincide with the end of the celebration luxuries is probably the best plan, as it is probably too early to add those expensive colosseums easily.

I am finding that increasing helper size is best postponed until much later, when the SSC is ready to celebrate beyond size 21 under Democracy. This way, helpers can focus entirely on the job of providing enough caravans to build the wonders needed by the SSC as early as possible. This also gives more time for road building, irrigation, etc., and even allows for colonies to reach size three in time so that they can participate in the celebration, too. Later on, there is more gold from SSC trade to pay off colosseums, too. Finally, unless early growth of a helper can give it 10 or more shields without improvements like mines, I find that using size 3 helpers that put out 5 shields or better is efficient enough in the early going, when you want to keep things simple and keep costs down.

As for barb attacks, I had one very early against New York, which a fortified warrior was able to thwart, yielding a leader, and a later attack on another core helper that required a quick diplomat. When under construction, one of my colonies was attacked, too, but the barbs went after my NON horseman, who survived by fortifying on a nearby mountaintop. After the attack, I snagged another leader. I think my luck with barbs, and being able to kill so many barb leaders yielded much more gold than I was getting from huts. In subsequent games on larger maps and my current game on a medium one, the barbs have not been as generous.

In my game the Romans and Mongols also were at war for a long time. A French diplomat was also sent my way, but all I could do with empty cities was watch as it went on to meet the Romans, trade tech, and end my hopes of having the Romans learning something new that I could use later. That diplomat wasn't more than just a nuisance, so I just put up with its presence. I believe it was near Rome at the time of the 1700 save I posted.

When gifting tech, I always trade maps after closing the discussion, too. As you say, it may improve attitudes, and often reveals newer AI cities that may be demanding goods not wanted elsewhere on the map.

I have a bit of minor advice, and will use New York in your save, as an example. If you take one of those workers off a river and put it on another forest, you will gain a shield production without producing that extra food you will not be needing. This will let you build a caravan a turn earlier, each time, if you can remember to do a mini-rush to 20 shields after you have accumulated the first 18 towards a caravan. Its only 4 gold, and producesw each caravan a little faster.

In the same way, cities putting out 7 shields can do a similar mini-rush, where 28 shields are converted to 30, allowing a caravan to finish a turn early at a cost of only 4 gold, again. Little, repeated savings like these, squeezed out of each city conserves gold and boosts production.

To conclude, I think your game is going very well, but you seem to be hurting more for gold. Part of this is our difference in luck obtaining it, other significant factors may be:

1) Your late start in overseas trade with the AI.

2) Minor inefficiencies in cities like New York.

3) Future lack of income by not having roaded trade routes to Rome.

Of these overseas trade is the key.

[solo]

I just finished another medium game using that latest start with 7 free techs, and was able to launch a ship in 220 AD with a landing date of 241 AD.

In this one, I did a better job of developing good colonies earlier, resulting in many more trading opportunities. This led to a long string of two advances per turn, following the discovery of automobile. On a smaller scale I was able to accomplish what I had done in the large map 295 AD game. The lower tech costs on a medium map allowed me to get to Automobile more quickly than I did on the large map, permitting an earlier landing date.

Below is a save made on the turn of the launch. Many city improvements had to be sold off to add a little more speed to the space ship. More details of some new ideas used in this game will be posted when I get them written up.

[La Fayette]

My god!
I have started playing that one...
Guess I'll be happy if I finish less than a millenium after you

[solo]

Here are some more details about the 241 AD game:

Phase One – SSC Growth

This start came with 7 free techs: Alphabet, Bronze Working, Code of Laws, Construction, Currency, Masonry, and Trade. Having Trade was especially good as this gave a jump on building the first 6 caravans needed for Shakespeare’s Theater. Another good feature of this start was the proximity of a decent, coastal SSC site having 2 whales, a wheat and a silk. There was only one hill, and there were not any mountains, making every tile in the site suitable for generating trade arrows. The other great benefit was starting out on the largest continent, which had many huts.

Disadvantages of this start were minor, one being that the purple civ was farthest away, the other being that helper locations were somewhat limited, since they had to be lined up along the coast due to inhospitable terrain further inland. This cut down the number of advanced tribes tipped to only one that was deemed good enough to retain. In the early going nomads were not too frequent, either, and the ones that were eventually found, had to make fairly long hikes back to civilization before they could found their helper cities.

So after Washington and New York were founded in 3600, the next city, Boston, came from a tribe in 3450, and Philadelphia came several turns later in 3200 with a nomad. The only tech in the first list worth learning was Ceremonial Burial, but I was able to trade for it from the Russians, who were contacted first.

With only 4 cities placed, I decided I had to bypass Monarchy and started to learn Writing, so as to get to Republic as soon as possible. Before learning Writing, I met the French, who already had it and who also had learned Literacy (or had tipped a hut for it). After trading for these two techs, I was able to switch to learning Republic, which only took a few more turns to acquire. The switch was made in 3050, and the luck of getting to Republic so quickly more than made up for the lack of luck in getting free cities quickly earlier on.

My explorers tipping huts had turned up mostly other military units, who in turn found more huts than usual with barbs, but there were enough explorers roaming this vast continent to also find a lot of techs, gold and another nomad. The nomad walked back from the North Pole to found Atlanta, as a home grown settler founded Philadelphia, bringing the total up to 5 cities by 3100.

In 3050, the first trireme was built and loaded up with a NON horseman and a rushed beads caravan from Washington, the SSC, and sent off to explore. By 2600, Washington had reached size 3 and by 2500 I had discovered Medicine, so an all out effort was made to get 6 caravans made as soon as possible, to get the SSC growing right away. In the meantime, an explorer located the English in 2450 and a trade was made for Horseback Writing in order to continue to study towards the next research goal of Sanitation, by way of The Wheel and Engineering. In 2400, a settler from New York founded Chicago, bringing the city total up to 6.

The trireme made contact with the Japanese in 2300 and the Aztecs in 2250 while exploring the channel separating their continents. All AI but the purple civ had been found! In 2100, San Francisco was founded by another settler. By 1900, the 6 caravans for ST were ready and it was built. This is the earliest I have been able to do this so far in any game, and by the time contact was made with the Indians on their own island, located a bit west of the Japanese and Aztecs, Washington was already size 6 and its beads caravan was delivered to Delhi for an excellent payoff of close to 400 gold. This seemed like a fortune at this stage in the game, and provided much of the cash needed to pay for the aqueduct, harbor and sewer system, in order to keep the SSC celebration going continuously until size 21 was reached in 1000 BC.

The first major goal, of getting the SSC up to size 21 quickly, had been accomplished. Another early priority had been to establish 3 good trade routes to maximize the SSC’s trade arrows and earning power first, before concentrating on its science. To do this, two more SSC caravans had been built and sent towards Moscow, while settlers built a road to Philadelphia, the city used as a “station” to set up trade route bonuses with Russia. Just as the first of these two SSC caravans reached Moscow, the Colossus was finished in Washington in 1050. By this time the SSC was size 20, and the payoff for delivering demanded hides to Moscow was well over 300 gold. Another caravan followed quickly, and with this influx of cash the scientific improvements and wonders were added very quickly afterwards. Copernicus was ready in 850 and Sir Isaac’s was built in 675. During this period the SSC had also been earning 25 gold per turn with a setting of 20% taxes and 80% science.

All that remained to do for the SSC was to convert its swamp, jungle, 2 forest and 1 hill to arrow producing plains, improved with roads and irrigation. A harbor, and the irrigation of other non-ocean tiles had produced enough food to get the SSC to size 21, but now it could wait for the final push to size 25 by doing this when all helpers were ready to grow beyond size 3.


Phase Two – Helper and Colony Growth

In previous games, helper cities had celebrated up to size 6 as the SSC was nearing size 21. Later on, when Democracy was discovered, oversea colonies near AI trading partners were founded almost as an afterthought. Most trade in these games was one-way. A bunch of freights would be produced at home and sent out for trade. Every other turn, the ship chain was realigned and this process was repeated. It was only towards the end of these games that colonies grew large enough to produce a few freights to send back home. It seemed a waste not to be making more use of shipping capacity in both directions, so in this game, the decision was made to have an extra colony, to start off colony development sooner, and to wait until all colonies were size 3 before starting the final celebration encompassing all cities.

For this reason, only 6 helpers were added around Washington, to help rush its early growth. Since a medium map permits 8 happy cities under Republic, a nomad found near the Indians was immediately used to found Buffalo in 1050 as the first colony, on part of their island. What became my half of the Indian’s island was perfectly suited for a group of colonies, since they would be located far away from home maximizing trade payoffs, but also be in close proximity to the 3 overseas AI: the Indians, the Aztecs and the Japanese. This was a perfect set up for extensive trading, later. By getting such an early start, Buffalo was able to grow to size three, and build a settler and found St. Louis, by the time the switch was made to Democracy in 725. A quick granary in St. Louis, before it reached size 2, assured its quick growth to size 3.

Meanwhile, back on the home front, now that helper cities had finished maximizing the SSC’s trade arrow growth, it was time to work on their own. Without considering specials, the best source of trade are ocean tiles, which yield 3 arrows each. In contrast, a land tile needs a road and superhighways to do as well. For my coastal cities, harbors were the cheapest way to maximize their trade potential. Best of all, harbors are available much earlier than superhighways, and once they are built everything is instantly ready for the new group of citizens. Settlers or engineers are never needed to “improve” ocean tiles, and about all they had to do for these helpers was to link them up with a single road.

With this thought in mind, and right after Magnetism was discovered, a galleon was built and loaded with 3 settlers and an SSC caravan and was sent to the colonies, with the idea of quickly building a third colony. Normally at this stage of the game, Leonardo’s Workshop seems like a good idea, but instead of having helpers build caravans to make this wonder, I had them start building more settlers, just prior to learning Explosives, so that they would emerge as Engineers. Meanwhile, one settler from the galleon was used to build my third colony, Detroit (also the 10th and last “happy” city permitted in Democracy). After a quick temple, the other two settlers were added to bring Detroit to size 3 instantly. As this was done, the new engineers were busy preparing the SSC for the final celebration, which began in 250 BC. Five turns later, all cities, including the 3 colonies, were at maximum size.

By delaying the final celebration until all cities could participate, all helpers and colonies got a head start in building their colosseums and also had enough spare time to build a fleet of transports to be used in a chain for freight deliveries. While waiting for all this to happen, the SSC had been keeping itself busy by producing and sending groups of caravans (and then freights) to AI cities near the colonies, providing extra income and beakers to rush everything being built and learned.


Phase Three - All Out Trading

Once Automobile was discovered in 100 BC, superhighways built in the SSC pushed the city science level high enough for 1 turn advances. Previous to this, there had been several 1 turn advances on turns when freights were delivered, since the alternating trading system was now set up and in full operation. It worked as follows:

On one turn the SSC and its helpers would produce freights, all of which would be chained to the colonies and the overseas AI for immediate delivery. Enough beakers were produced to obtain the current tech being studied, and enough cash was made to finish off any freights started the previous turn in the colonies. There was also enough surplus cash to continue building superhighways and scientific improvements in each of the colonies, too, so that the second advance each turn from city science could be sustained as tech costs grew higher. On the second turn of each pair, the freights produced by the colonies were chained back home, while the SSC and helpers started building a new set of freights to keep this alternation going. This two way trading was very profitable and kept the string of 2 advances per turn going for most turns during the remainder of the game.

One thing specific to this game was that the SSC, some helpers and the colonies were all at one time or another, supplying and demanding oil. Whenever oil could be delivered, the maximum 2/3 payoffs were assured. Because of this, I deliberately held back a bit when gifting new techs to the purple civ, whenever I knew an oil delivery was coming up. This temporarily increased the tech costs, resulting in an increase of the 2/3 cap applied to payoffs. After these deliveries produced extra beakers and gold, all of the newest techs could be gifted to the Indians so that the next tech being acquired by city science would be under the science total currently being produced by my cities.

Since most of my cities had harbors and most citizens were working trade-rich ocean tiles, even the cities without any scientific improvements were putting out about 30 beakers each per turn. At this stage of the game, there is enough income, that all freights are rushed, so helper and colony shield production need only be a few shields, in order to get each freight started. I found it to be more efficient to maximize their trade arrow potential when they grew beyond size 3. At their peak, all my cities in this game were putting out 1662 beakers, a little more than needed to learn the last necessary tech, Fusion Power, which cost 1602. Of these 1662 beakers, a little over 1000 came from the SSC. Each colony had all scientific improvements, and they were averaging over 140 beakers each. The rest came from the helpers, some of which had libraries. Helpers and colonies contributed about 40% to the beaker total, quite a bit more than in the typical game dominated by an SSC.

The proximity of so many trading partners to my colonies was another specific feature of this game that made this alternating trading system work so well. The Aztecs, who did not have many techs, but had fairly well-sized cities, were still demanding the salt and beads that my SSC was building when it couldn’t be pumping oil. With so many tech gifts, the Indians were good demanders of coal after my own cities stopped wanting any. The Japanese, with only two cities, never amounted to much, but still demanded the odd commodity now and then that the others were not wanting. So, almost every freight in this game could be delivered to a demanding city immediately after it was produced.

Towards the end of the research tree, most beakers being produced by the last city founded, Detroit, were being wasted, since they were all being used up just to trigger the first advance of each pair that had been secured by trade. So an 11th city was added quite late with the sole purpose of supplying the beaker needed to perform this function. This freed Detroit’s 152 beakers so that they could be counted toward the advance secured by city science. Adding the 11th city made the first citizen in Philadelphia unhappy, but a courthouse was used to fix this.

Advances came so quickly at the end, that Fusion Power had been learned sooner than it could be put to use. It would have been better to slow down research a bit after learning Space Flight, since I ended up having to sell off my harbors, superhighways, airports, universities, etc., to raise enough cash to build a rocket with 4 components. Things can happen more quickly than expected when two techs are acquired every turn.

In conclusion, whenever I’ve had a game where I have managed to do a little better, I can look back and see that it is always some improvement made to trade that made the most difference. For the next game, I will experiment with having even more colonies and fewer helpers, in an attempt to find out which ratio works best. Extra colonies would make alternating trade even more effective, but fewer helpers may not be enough to get the SSC up to size quickly enough. Time will tell what the optimum helper/colony ratio might be.

[La Fayette]

solo
You told me a while ago "it takes some time to get the hang of it".
The more I read you, the more I feel I never get the hang of it.
Hat down (and good luck to samson if he feels like trying to beat you: I don't even dream of being only a few centuries behind ).
Anyway, I'll read you again and try to improve my poor poor results.

[La Fayette]

One question, solo
I seem to get very nasty results compared to yours when tipping huts. Have you any good advice to give in that field?

[solo]

La Fayette,

My luck with huts comes and goes, and I play many games where things go against me, too. Maybe I should describe a game or two where poor hut results ruined any chances of having an excellent result. An example is the start posted below, where almost all the early hut results went against me. Maybe someone else may have better luck with this one, since it does have great possibilities.

[Scouse Gits]

Yeah ... I've tried one of solo's early landing starts to see if I could better my own record. I had poor luck with huts. As I recall, Archer; 25 gold; Warrior Code. Then after founding came across Barbs a couple of times. But it's down to luck. On a good day the Archer would have been a Chariot, the 25g would have been 100g, and Warrior Code would have been a more useful advance. I may try the game solo's just posted to see if I do better.

---------------------

SG(2)

[solo]

I would agree that the first half dozen huts can set the trend and that these results can have a huge impact on the outcome of any game, with nasty results making it impossible to compete with another's game that started off with the best of luck.

For this reason, I am very quick to abandon any game that does not start out without promising hut results, no matter how favorable the starting position. For the same reason, I'll immediately abandon any start unless it comes with a list of good free techs. While it is taboo to reload after unfavorable hut results, there's no rule saying one must continue every game that is started.

If individual games are to be compared or to compete for early landing "records", it might be best to do so only with starts that have been converted to scenarios with all huts wiped out, to create as level a playing field as possible.

Ultimately, all my latest games have done is shown what could be possible after getting off to great starts, and I'll freely admit that if early hut results in any of these games had been unuseful, my landing times would have been delayed by millenia, too.

[Bloody Monk]

I'm just begining to understand this early landing game so my comments might be less than profound. It seems to me that Hut Dynamics, or Hut Luck if you will, is the hinge on which greater or lesser success rests.

Huts in this kind of game are like dope to an addict. Or perhaps, on very bad days, tipping huts is like Russian Roulette. To speed up the pace of research and get gold one must risk entering huts. A very aggressive exploration program is almost a requirement, it seems to me. And yet, very, very bad things can happen just as easily as the hoped for results. If you get a better than expected distribution in the hut results, your game will speed ahead. If worse, then any hope for a very early finish is dashed.

That's why I say it's like dope to an addict...you just can't stay away. Or Russian Roulette...you've got to bear the risk.

The idea that huts make for uneven results and should be wiped in level comparrison games is probably accurate. But in some measure huts are like the risk taking that real life leaders inevitably undertake, the favorable results of which lead to their becoming famous. Bad outcomes yield obscurity...sorta like dumped games.

So, here's to barbs that don't 'get' you and advanced tribes that don't come when you haven't the resources to burn them down.

[solo]

BM,

That was very well put.

La Fayette,

As for advice on tipping huts, I actually do have a few tips to increase the chances of desired outcomes. Although the actual results are never a certainty, the odds of the possible results do vary quite a bit, depending on the situation, so it pays to find ways to increase the odds in your favor. Samson’s post about hut outcomes is a great summary of these odds and contains some good tips that have helped me improve my chances of getting desired results early on and throughout the rest of a game. Some examples:

1) This is already well known, but tipping huts before founding any cities increases the odds of getting NON mercenaries, which are probably the most desired result from the first 2 or three huts, so explorations can continue immediately.

2) Less well known is that if you found your first two cities on the same turn, huts tipped right afterwards on that turn have a 47% chance of giving a tribe or nomad result. (Normal odds of this are only about 22%). This is because the hut algorithm is still operating on the “continent” rule described in Samson’s post. Because of this, I always wait to found my first two cities until I have one explorer standing by a hut where I would like to see a nomad, and another waiting to tip a hut on a tile where I would like to see an advanced tribe appear. This is my best chance for getting two free cities very early on, and the odds of getting one or both are very good since they are double what they usually would be.

3) If I do get a nomad from 2) above, I will defer tipping other huts nearby where they might appear until the first one has founded another city, since I want another nomad ASAP, and can not have two at once unless I have 8 or more cities.

4) We all dread getting Warrior Code from an early hut, but chances of this happening can vary considerably if any free techs come with a start. These chances are considerably reduced if one already has Code of Laws and Currency, but still has not acquired Trade. Since Trade is now possible from a hut, and because Trade is only 2 techs away from Warrior Code on the alphabetical list, the odds of getting Warrior Code become very low. So when I look at the free techs coming with a start, I’m always very happy if I see Code of Laws and Currency, since I know that having these will decrease the odds of getting Warrior Code, as long as Trade remains unknown. If I already have Trade, then I go for Philosophy and Math as quickly as possible, so as to make University eligible from a hut. Since University sits right before Warrior Code on the alphabetical list, chances now of getting WC from a hut almost drop to zero.

5) The same goes for other techs, which are either desired or despised. When you are picking the next thing you want to research, one consideration is how its acquisition will affect the relative positions of eligible techs on the alphabetical list, since the order in which desired techs are learned can affect the odds of which ones come from huts.

6) If I want a nomad badly, the odds will be 100% from any hut on rough terrain, as long as I have no cities on the same continent, and as long as the closest Civ is an AI, and the distance of its closest city to the hut is over 12. Those odds are pretty good!

7) Later on, if I want to increase my chances of getting gold from huts I will learn Invention as quickly as possible. If I am falling behind in techs and want to get as many as possible from huts, then I will defer learning invention, and research techs in an order that will make it unlikely for Invention to appear from a hut itself.

Finally, I must admit that in spite of the many things you can do to try and stack the odds in your favor, hut results are capricious and you might end up getting the most unlikely, and undesired result, anyways. However, if you are lucky and do well early on, the influence of hut results on the success or failure of any game steadily diminishes as the game progresses. For example, while Warrior Code from the first hut may be a disaster, once I have 6 cities and am a Republic, having it come from a hut is unpleasant, but shruggable. One more tech to support at this point in a game is not so bad.

[Bloody Monk]

Solo,

What a great piece on how to think about hut strategy!! Thanks.

There have been so many helpful posts in this thread. It makes me really wish I had gotten a replacement printer for Christmas.

Monk

[Scouse Gits]

solo ... good advice on huts

The 100% rule for nomads is new to me. Has that been tested? Is it the same for tribes on good terrain?

--------------------

SG(2)

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
Solo,

What a great piece on how to think about hut strategy!! Thanks.

There have been so many helpful posts in this thread. It makes me really wish I had gotten a replacement printer for Christmas.

Monk

The Monk said it all

[solo]

SG(2),

Thanks for that question, since I think I came away with the wrong impression the first time after reading the "Continent Rule" section of Samson's thread on his study of hut outcomes.

I have just rechecked it, and it now appears that the human player's chances here are 47%, and the 100% only applies when the AI does the tipping. In both cases, the closest city must be at a distance of over 12 from the hut.

47% is still very good odds, but I do apologize to all here for my error in the previous post.

[Scouse Gits]

solo

Absolutely no apologies necessary!

Your wisdom in this field has enhanced the game for all your readers - even despicable rodents like myself

SG[1]

[solo]

Sometimes the barbs land and attack without any warning!

(Well, attaching that image did not work. I will try again)

[solo]

One more time...

[Bloody Monk]

Solo,

Condolences. Such a sad tragic picture

That must have been a bummer.

Now, how did you go about making/capturing the image?? Does it require another program?? Being able to present a single image really illustrates a point well.

Monk

[solo]

BM,

This goes with the territory when taking bigger risks, as noted in your excellent post. The successes make up for the "oh wells"! By the way, did you continue your game? If so, how did it go?

I am not really the one to ask about capturing and posting images, since I still do not know how to get one to appear automatically as part of a post, but I see others do this a lot.

I will offer what I know, which is to press the Prt Scr key oin my keyboard, which captures the screen. Then I quit my game and start Paint. Then under the Edit tab, I select Paste, and presto, the image is there. Finally I shrink and save it as a .gif file and attach to my post as I would with a save.

I would be grateful if someone else might explain a better way of doing this.


To all,

Well, that last game was good for a laugh, and goes to show that taking chances to maximize early development does not always payoff in a big way! The start used for that game had 8 free techs, and will be attached below. (I hope I counted correctly this time! I used to be good in math long ago, before reaching the age of 30!)

In light of that result, it may not be the best time to offer some more advice on early landing strategy, but I will take the plunge and go ahead and do this anyways!


Learning quickly without hitting the books

I have found SG’s “A is for Alphabet” thread invaluable in making the most out of early tech acquisition. This thread described an exhaustive test determining the number and nature of techs likely to be received at the start of a game by the different kinds of civs, whether they are classified as civilized, neutral or militaristic.

One of the reasons I use the Americans is because as a civilized civ, the free techs they are most likely to receive are the ones along the path towards other techs that I want to acquire early. The Americans are also less likely to get less desirable techs such as Warrior Code and Horseback Riding. The other reasons I pick the Americans are because they often get many free techs at the start, and because Samson noted that they end up as the key civ for the civ that becomes rated as Strong. The vast American tech lead allows the Strong civ to learn faster and help acquire techs as a research assistant.

There is more information from SG’s thread that comes in very handy, since each random start will produce a good balance of the different kinds of civs, including the neutral and militaristic types. This is quite beneficial, because other civs get free techs at the start, often picking up ones never coming with an American start. For example, neutral civs can get the following techs for free: Iron Working, Wheel, and Map Making and Militaristic civs can get Iron Working and Wheel. When these types of civs are likely to come up with these techs for free, it’s usually a good choice for the Americans to defer researching them until contact is made with some of the AI in the game. Why learn something yourself, when you can trade for it a just little later?

Another thing I learned is that these other civs are as likely to get certain techs for free as often as they come as freebies for the American. Examples here are Ceremonial Burial, Bronze Working, Currency, Pottery, Mysticism and Masonry. Again, it may be better to defer learning these more common freebies, and to concentrate early on techs that can not come free with another civ’s start. A good example of this would be Mathematics, which I often choose first, because I can be fairly certain that the other techs I need fairly early will be available through trade.

After playing many games, I have noticed that the techs usually offered by the AI conform to the ones that are most likely on SG’s list for each type of civ. However, there has been one exception. After starting many games as the Americans (or as the civilized Romans in OCC), I have often picked up Writing from another civilized civ, such as the French. Although SG’s tests never yielded Writing as a free tech, I was getting it by trade so often and so early from civilized civs that I was fairly certain they had not learned it by the time contact was made.

Quite some time ago, when I first noticed this oddity about Writing, I decided to check a few 4000 BC saves I had kept on file from previous games. After loading several of these games and revealing the map, I noticed that the other civilized civ often started the game with Writing as a free tech. As the human player, it has never come to me for free at the start, but apparently it is available as a freebie for the AI, if we are both civilized. In any event, having discovered this little tidbit, I have found that Writing is often available earlier by trade than by direct research, and this knowledge has helped me to get to Republic faster than usually possible in several early landing games. In fact, sometimes I have been lucky enough to have the other civilized civ pursue and learn Literacy very early, and save me the trouble of learning this vital tech, too.

When checking these earlier saves, I did not notice any other deviations from the findings presented in SG’s thread. Free techs being received by the neutral and militaristic civs were ones they were expected to receive, with frequencies of individual techs also seeming to conform pretty much to SG’s findings. From this, I have surmised that it is likely that the two techs, Mathematics and Polytheism, which never show up for free for the human player, may be available to the corresponding AI in games where the human picks a militaristic or neutral civ when beginning a game. This is just a theory, and may not be worth testing to see if it has any validity.

All of this information just goes to show that the AI can provide more help than anticipated in early tech acquisition, if the human player concentrates on techs that the AI are unlikely to have or acquire first. More often than not, studying a tech such as Mathematics, which may not seem so vital early on, is a good way of maximizing the chances of getting all needed techs earlier, since less tech duplication increases chances of tech acquisition by trades.

Another good early choice for research might be Mysticism, since this tech has one of the lowest frequencies in appearance as a free one. In early landing games where temples are built early, it comes in handy for happiness control, while also being along the path towards Philosophy, which with Mathematics, opens up University as an eligible tech. In a previous post, I noted that by accomplishing this quickly, the odds of seeing Warrior Code emerge from a hut afterwards become very low.

Of course, deferring the research of vital techs such as Map Making or Writing can lead to a poor result, if it turns out that they are not available from the AI through trade later on. However, by arranging the odds of great success in your favor by assuming that these beneficial trades will be available later, a lot of turns can be trimmed off an early landing attempt. The potential rewards are worth the risk, because if things don’t work out as planned in the present game, the odds are that they might in the next, or the next.

[solo]

Oops, I forgot to attach the save of the start. Here it is:

[Bloody Monk]

Solo,

Thanks for the clear advice on capturing images. I'll have to play with the shink %'s, but I've basically got it.

Thanks, too, for the expansion on tech basics. Having your thinking behind the thinking makes me appreciate even more the depth of your insight into how to "do" this gamestyle.

I am still playing the "game." What with a friend in the hospital and my general slow play, I'm still at it. And learning and enjoying myself immensely, thank you very much.

I noticed something interesting about the rail-route bonus. I got the jump in ongoing route numbers when the rail link was completed to Bluffalo, even though the intervening tile to Rome only had a road. Is this part of the benifit (discussed in a different thread) that accrues to founding a city along the path from your SSC to the AI target city??

Monk

[La Fayette]

One more post with good advice included
Perhaps I finally manage to land before 1000AD once in my life, after reading so much good advice
... not in my present game, though

[Scouse Gits]

solo - Although the starting techs of the AI were not tested in any systematic way I do recall entering cheat on some occasions to monitor free science for the non human civs. I'm sure you are correct about Writing. The one we were interested in was Map Making, which unlike Writing, does very occasionally become available to the human at 4000BC ... but always as the eighth tech. (It seems you can never have MM from the start unless you have 8 free advances, and your geography is likely to be near either pole). The AI often gets Map Making from day one, presumably to ease the exchange of territorial details. This also helps it explore early with triremes that race across the oceans without land in sight!

----------------------------------

SG(2)

[solo]

Monk,

Yes, see Samson's thread on phantom roads and rails for complete details as to how to get this bonus using a "station". It can be tricky, as the route has to follow the right path in order to work. Once it's right, you can certainly tell the difference!


La Fayette,

The more I play, the harder it is for me to match many earlier results. It seems that the first time I try a new start or strategy, I often have great "beginner's luck".

For example, the start I used for my 776 rehoming game, over a year ago, was the very first random start I tried for this type of game, playing as the Americans. In retrospect, the odds of getting such a great starting position on the very first try are about as likely as winning a big lottery.

I wish I could bottle this beginner's luck and save it for future games after having learned of better strategies. My most recent games with very good starts have been not going well, for a variety of "minor" reasons that end up causing "major" delays.

In my latest, which began very well, I am still lacking the discovery of Automobile in 300 AD, and may not even get enough good trade going to be able to finish before 1000 AD.


SG(2),

I just saw your post and agree about Map Making. I can tell that the AI get it all the time, while I have yet to receive it as a free tech. Could be that the same is true for Writing. Since 8 free tech starts are few and far between, I may not have had one yet where it shows up as my last one.

[SCG]

Originally posted by solo
I am not really the one to ask about capturing and posting images, since I still do not know how to get one to appear automatically as part of a post, but I see others do this a lot.

when you do a reply, don't do the post quick reply. from the post reply screen, you should see a section called vB Code. one of the buttons there is IMG. Using that, you can provide a link to an image stored elsewhere. The main catch is that it does seem to require an internet adress to where the picture is hosted, so if you don't currently have a website where you can post your own pictures and link to them, attachements are the next best thing.