Watch me Get Obliterated!

[Gravy Smoothie]

Hey everyone. I'm new to posting here, although I've pored over a fair amount of the GL stuff during my two major periods of playing Civ II (one about a year ago and the most recent, being right now.) Last year when I read the OCC and ICS stuff over I gave Deity a try or two and quickly got frustrated. This time, I'm determined, but I thought that it'd maybe be interesting to post logs here as I attempt my various attempts to beat the game Deity, 7 civs, random map, raging. Armed with plenty of new knowledge since yesterday (importance of trade, tech gifting, MPE, etc. etc.) I am ready to give this one a shot. (or two, or twenty)

Gravy Smoothie

[Scouse Gits]

Gravy Smoothie Good Luck and welcome to Apolyton!

-----------------------

SG(2)

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

I'm betting that if you read all the GL, and apply some of the key principles (DaveV's resource square usage guidelines, and trade 'til it hurts), you'll win on Deity on the first try.

[Scouse Gits]

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man
(DaveV's resource square usage guidelines, and trade 'til it hurts)

And I thought those principles were mutually exclusive

-----------------

SG(2)

[Gravy Smoothie]

Well, the first game is donw, it went about as well as I had hoped. I failed to assimilate everything I had read, and the major benefits that I would have received became very apparent to me. At the bottom of the log I have a few comments, and a few questions.
BTW, thanks SG and STYOM for the warm welcome.

OK, here goes:

4000 BC Start Alphabet, Bronze. Hut SW = chariot.
3600 Wander for 8 turns and don't find a city site I like. Contemplate starting over, then settle for a non-shield grassland with whale. Cardiff Founded.
3300 CoL.
3250 Phalanx in Cardiff, begin Colossus.
3100 Kells Founded SW of Cardiff, whale, buffalo.
2850 CB. We are on a small, small island. Whale/fish site located.
2750 Phalanx in Kells, begin Settlers.
2350 Pottery. Switch Cardiff to HG. Barb trireme drops 1 archer on our shores, rest on opposite island.
2150 Kells builds settlers. **** -- whale/fish site not possible. Barbs land next to Cardiff, dispatched.
1800 Carmarthen founded, whale (no fish).
1650 Monarchy, switch to Monarchy (duh).
1450 Kells builds settlers, switch to temple.
1400 Phalanx at Carmarthen, switch to Settlers.
1250 Cardiff hits size 4, disorder. 1 Worker removed.
1150 Horseback Riding. Armagh founded (whale).
975 HANGING GARDENS built in Cardiff. Kells builds temple. Cardiff Begins Colossus, Kells begins settlers.
950 Carmarthen builds settlers, switch to horsemen.
925 Armagh Phalanx, switch to settlers.
850 Currency.
825 Carmarthen -- horsies, switch to Colossus.
750 Settlers in Kells, switch to trireme.
650 Armagh build settlers, switch to temple.
625 Masonry. Orders in Cardiff switch from Colossus to Pyramids. Run into Japanese, gift 100 gold, sign treaty, give 3 techs, alliance, trade Monarchy and Currency for Map Making and Warrior Code.
375 English nearly done with Pyramids...chariot fortified in Cardiff and Settler next to Cardiff both disbanded in town, Pyramids bought for 44 gold.
350 PYRAMIDS. Switch prod in Cardiff to phalanx.
325 Englihs build Colossus, switch Carmarthen to Lighthouse.
300 Trade. Orders in Carmarthen changed to MPE, orders in Kells to caravan.
225 Give Trade for Iron Working to Japs, pay 50 gold, give CoL.
200 Japs drop me a line: we're through alliance-wise.
75 Kells -- caravan, food.
25 Caravan arrives at Carmarthen, helps build. Orders in Kells changed to phalanx, in Armagh to trireme.
1 AD -- I AM STILL ALIVE. MARCO POLO'S EMBASSY built in Carmarthen. English -- gift Trade, trade Monarchy for Writing. Chinese -- Trade, Pottery, Monarchy and Map Making for Mysticism, Construction, Math and Astronomy. Gift Iron Working, peace. Vikings -- Writing and Trade for Poly, Wheel, peace, gift some, get maps. Spanish -- gift a few, get Engineering and maps, peace. Give the Mongols a bunch of techs, call Japanese and Vikings back, maps from all three. Call English back, trade for Seafaring and Literacy.
25 Switch research to Invention.
100 Caernarfon founded, building settlers.
180 Gift techs to Japanese.
340 Trade for Bridge Building.
380 Gifting various techs, demand tribute from Spanish, war.
480 Even though seafaring gives my triremes 3/4 chance to survive a turn offshore, my boat loaded with two caravans sinks to the bottom of the sea. I look around half-heartedly for things to break. javascript:smilie('')
mad
540 Invention. Switch Cardiff to Leo's, round up my caravans.
620 Leo's Built, nothing upgrades.
740 Tintagel Founded (fish).
760 Talk to Spanish, pay 100 gold, end war. Thankfully, they are the only other civ who has yet to discover Invention, so I trade it them for The Republic.
780 Wool arrives at London, getting me into a war with the English along the way.
980 Philosophy --> Mono, Kells switches from Oracle (which has already been built) to Mike's.
1000 War with Vikings.
1060 Caerphilly founded (whale).
1080 Gift, Republic, Philo, trade Mono for Gunpowder to Mongols.
1140 Kells builds Mike's, begin to produce Crusaders and triremes en masse.
1420 Two crusaders land at Japanese city, goad them into war, attack, lose both crusaders.
1440 Banking, start on Demo.
1460 Two more crusaders, more casualties.
1500 Two more, they die as well.

1530 I return to my computer after a 20-hour break from the game (school etc.) Read up on inca911's GL entry on Hints & Tips and SimpsonII's perfectionist strategy. Production orders in most cities changed to caravans.
1550 Barbs land next to Armagh. Miraculously my regular Musketeers hold against two Legions (phew).
1650 6 Caravans on their way, discover Democracy.
1660 Revolution to Democracy, jack lux to 80%...friggin triremes still count as wartime units and are making my Kells citizens unhappy. There should be WLT*D next turn everywhere else though. Wish I could trade for Navigation... and I lose another trireme at sea on a 1/4 chance.
1764 Talk to the English, end war by gifting Philosophy. Trade Mono and something else for Navigation (a bit late) and Magnetism.
1778 Pay 300 gold to Chinese, trade Demo for Industrialization, pay 440 gold for Steam Engine.
1782 Medicine.
1792 Communism cancels MPE...
1794 SoL built in Carmarthen.
1800 Pay Vikings 200 for end of war, peace treaty, trade Railroad for Communism, start UN.
1810 Sanitiation.
1822 Vikings build UN. I am lagging kinda far behind in science, which is at this point the strongest point of my empire. Plenty to change for next game.
1836 Vikings Build Adam Smith.
1840 Vikings and Japanese rub Tactics and Electricity in my face, respectively.
1852 Mongols offer me 500 gold and Railroad, as well as an alliance, to go to war with the Japanese. Sure, why not. I talk to them the same turn, trade Sanitation for Metallurgy, and they break the alliance.
1854 Pay 300 gold and give Leadership, end war with Japanese.
1862 Tactics.
1866 Spanish demand Leadership, I give, then gift 1 more and trade Communism for Electricity.
1868 Japanese breake cease-fire and waste two of my riflemen with destroyers.
1870 I go Fundamentalism, to try and raise some cash, build some army and do some damage.
1873 Japanese land, take Caerphilly. javascript:smilie('')
eek!
1877 Japanese take Tintagel, start butchering my partisans.
1887 I liberate Tintagel.
1889 I liberate Caerphilly and retire. Score: 232, Rating, 32%.

All in all, this was the best game I have ever played. This was the first time I managed to set up a significant number of trade routes (although many aren't mentioned in the log, I set up about 12 or 15, but not with the largest cities, or the ones furthest away). Some comments, then some questions:

1. I realize after this game the importance of streamlining tech. At 1 AD when I built MPE, I traded for maybe 10 techs, which put me well past my 19th (after which I remeber reading that many more beakers are reuired for subsequent techs). This will be changed next game.
2. Never send triremes offshore...

1. Curious about a few things with veteran units. First of all, do you build barracks in all of your cities? Some? None? And, with units who have odd A/D values (i.e. Crusaders), do those round up or down with veteran status? (is a Veteran Crusader an 8/2/2 unit or a 7/1/2 unit?)
2. Ships absolutely ravage my ports, is there anything I can do to prevent this?
3. I had a LOT of trouble playing an offensive game. Do you make any focus on capturing cities if you are planning to land on AC? Do most players on Deity play to land AC, or to take over the world?

I will read up on DaveV's resource usage, and give this one another stab pretty soon. Thanks again!

Gravy Smoothie

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

There was no save file attached, so I couldn't tell if you built many cities beyond 5 or 6. Build more next time. Some people prefer the real perfectionist route, and some people prefer the IC (infinite city) route, but generally, more cities are better. If being on an island slowed you down... aim for Lighthouse, rather than Pyramids/Colossus. It seems like you had no problem building wonders...

Non shield grassland IS a good choice for founding a city, because the city square gives a free shield, anyway. It's something for nothing, and all else being equal, you should take that.

Try to map out a tech path. There's a thread somewhere which shows a 'first 20 techs' list... that was what I used for a long time. Set goals - usually Monarchy, then Trade for Caravans, then perhaps Mono for Mikes. In your case, the sailing techs would have been a high priority.

You had some unrest issues. In the very early going, building warriors rather than phalanxes will help solve this in Despo/Monarchy. 2 warriors cost the same as 1 phalanx, but are twice as good for martial law. And for defence, link your cities with roads and build horsemen to defend with.

Re: Your questions:

Barracks: I never build them. Sun Tzu is cheaper. Besides, I don't usually go for early conquest.

Ships harassing you? Build bigger ships. Plus, sinking enemy caravels/galleons loaded with bad guys is much easier than killing the bad guys on shore.

I try to make nice with everyone I meet in the early going. If someone is in your expansion path, though, it's important to get rid of them. If not, just expand somewhere else and bide your time

[Gravy Smoothie]

Sounds like solid advice, STYOM. I did read the post on the 20 starting techs from the GL, but didn't realize how important choosing you early techs wisely can be. And, just to give you an idea of what the game looks like, here's the 1888 save, 11 turns before i retired.

-- Gravy

[Bloody Monk]

Welcome Gravy to one of life's truely great experiences You are in for a lot of fun.

Coastal Fortresses will double defense -v- ship bombardment of your ports. But following STYOM, build bigger ships and don't let em near your cities.

Next game expand more. Don't stop building new cities and don't stop trading. There is a visible land mass just South of your continent that is unexplored and undeveloped..

You might want to trade off the shields for Pyramid for a science wonder or LH and capture the big pile of stone later in the game. Food is not a necessity in the early game where it can even be a happiness problem.

Adding again to STYOM's point about getting sea related science and wonders when you are on a small island, move quickly to Steam Engine and build Ironclads (if you have Lighthouse, they will be Vets). Then proceed to thin out the AI coastal cities. In the window before Magnetism kills LH, an invasion force of vet Clads and caravels loaded with defensive units to take the cities after the clads drop their flag is unstoppable.

Have fun.........

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Well, looking at the save... if you want quick advice, build more cities. If you're going to play perfectionist, you'll need more than 15 trade routes - you'll want to be delivering a couple of Caravans per TURN, at least, to keep the science and cash flowing, if you're only going to have 6-7 cities. And you don't have a SSC, which is (probably) crucial to success in a perfectionist strategy.

If you reveal the map, you'll see that 3 or 4 of the AIs have more than a dozen cities... to put it simply, they can outproduce you. There's no need for that, especially with a large, empty land mass south of you. Additional cities with additional production can make up for a lot of minor errors.

With some additional expansion, and some goal setting, the next game should go much better. BTW, that island isn't all that small... you could have crammed a 2-3 more cities in there. A little overlap won't kill you... particularly when none of your cities are working all the squares in their respective radii. Minimize overlap in your key (SSC) cities, but the others can handle a few shared tiles.

[Straybow]

350 PYRAMIDS

Most of us old hands haven't built Pyramids for so long we can't remember when. Too many other WoWs of higher priority. Think of it this way: 5 granaries = cost of Pyramids, you have only 6 cities and do they really need granaries? Colossus (extra arrows) or Lighthouse (safe Triremes, extra movement for better ships) each gives you something you can't get any other way.

225 Give Trade for Iron Working to Japs, pay 50 gold, give CoL.
200 Japs drop me a line: we're through alliance-wise

Don't bother with alliances unless they're willing to pay you money Not only that but the Japs are among the least trustworthy of AIs—militarist expansionist traits. Pay them off, they stab you in the back.

Check out some succession game threads, lots of readily absorbable tips in them.

Have fun storming the castle!

[Scouse Gits]

Yeah - must raise my voice in agreement...

But first, Welcome Gravy! Please join the madhouse (I'm the other git - there are two of us - long story)

1) Warriors, not Phalanges
2) LH (or Col) not Pyramids
3) Don;t emulate the AI and tie up production in lots of cities with WoWs - You will normally have Trade in time for your second wonder, and if not use diplomats as a 'poor man's caravan' to transfer shields from one city to another - once you have trade NEVER put production into WoWs - it is not cost effective (caravan shields cost ~2g and WoW shields cost 4g) and it denies that city any flexibility (can't break off and churn out a heavy or a happy for example)
3 (is it?)) The AI cannot manage a navy to save its silicon - build a few powerful floating things and rule the waves
4) Build more Cities, noble leader!
5) Build more Caravans, noble leader!
6) Build more Crooks, noble leader!
7) Build more Clads, noble leader!

in fact if it begins with "C" we need more of them

Good game and again welcome, SG[1]

[Scouse Gits]

Shameless plug:

Seeing as it is now available you may as well use it:
The Gits' Hut and Special Finder can be found at http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...34#post1520034

SG[1]

[LDiCesare]

Most (all) of the comments seem very reasonable. I add my own ones:
Two warriors instead of one phalanx cost the same plus you can use one to explore a bit before he comes back to tell the angry mobs to shut up. You seem to have built phalanx then started a wonder right off, I'd have built warrior + settler + warrior (or warrior/warrior settler depending on how much of the map you know) before starting a Wow.

Pyramids should definitely have been topped with a bonfire to change them into a lighthouse. Two lost camels are too much. Lacking LH, you needed Navigation ASAP.

When you built HG, did you try for WLTKD in that city? With a few warriors, you can usually boost it under monarchy for a few turns without resorting to lux rates.

Barracks: Either barracks or SunTzu. Some people don't like SunTzu because Feudalism will remove the warrior slot and prevent incremental rush-buying of units. And barracks are cheap, and if you wnat to conquer early, then you only have elephants or crusaders, and no feudalism yet, so they are worth buying if you want to wage early warfare.

[DaveV]

Originally posted by Gravy Smoothie
1420 Two crusaders land at Japanese city, goad them into war, attack, lose both crusaders.
1440 Banking, start on Demo.
1460 Two more crusaders, more casualties.
1500 Two more, they die as well.

This is the way the AI attacks. If you're going to attack, bring more than enough units to do the job. You can pick up techs, cities, and gold by capturing AI cities.

1. Curious about a few things with veteran units. First of all, do you build barracks in all of your cities? Some? None? And, with units who have odd A/D values (i.e. Crusaders), do those round up or down with veteran status? (is a Veteran Crusader an 8/2/2 unit or a 7/1/2 unit?)

If I can't build Sun Tzu's, I'll build barracks in a few high-production cities, and strategic cities near the front line. All attack and defense factors are rounded to the nearest 1/8, so vet crusaders are 7.5/2/2. A vet fortified pikeman on a river defends at 10.125 against crusaders.

3. I had a LOT of trouble playing an offensive game. Do you make any focus on capturing cities if you are planning to land on AC? Do most players on Deity play to land AC, or to take over the world?

Conquest. Civ is a classic zero-sum game: taking enemy cities weakens their empire while strengthening your own. I find AC/trade games boring, but other people enjoy them. Different strokes, etc. A lot depends on map size: it can be incredibly tedious moving hundreds of units around a giga map.

[Old n Slow]

My two cents to echo and add with the others:

#1 Plan -- plan the tech path, plan the search (no actually just go forth and search), plan the growth.

#2 Grow -- more cities = more science AND more productive capability for everything else.

#3 Don't forget to spend a few $$ to rush buy things -- Rush buying camels helps the trade AND wonder building.

#4 Proportions -- (I'm an intermediate player so this advice might be a bit off) Early on, warriors do the civil unrest as well as any military unit, search over rough terrain as well as any early unit and are CHEAP if lost or other bad things happen. So early on, build some warriors instead of phalanxes or horses (maybe keep one or two mounted units near the cities to knock off the barb leaders.) Otherwise build settlers (who fould cities and sometimes build roads). Later build dips for search, dips to buy (hopefully future NON units) barbs and more settlers. I'd say skip the barracks until after gunpowder; if you don't build/get Sun Tsu, then about 3-4 barracks should be more than enough for serious defense. After trade, about 70-90% of the units build should be non-combat units -- build, build, build.

#5 Avoid early war -- if you're a builder (see my bias in #4 above) then when war comes (and no doubt it WILL come) you'll be able to fight with better units -- always the prefered way to go.

[-Jrabbit]

1. Always run to Monarchy ASAP 9which I presume you did).
2. Get Trade early. Build camels in preference to most other stuff. I learned my biggest problem was a tendency to build early infrastructure that wasn't really needed.
3. Too many ancient WoWs. Pick one or two (typically HG or Sun Tsu and Lighthouse for many here) and get on with your other goals. Other than (maybe) my first WoW, I never tie up a city for many turns of build. It's far better to use those turns for camels. When the WoW you wnat comes available, just activate those camels and build in one turn.
4. Make a definite decision whether you're going to war or to the stars. It greatly affects the wisdom of your tech path and build choices.
5. Do everything you can to speed your early builds -- it's like compound interest. Every turn you're collecting trade bonuses, Marketplace money, or whatever, is pure profit. In short, learn to rushbuild incrementally, keeping only enough GP on hand to weather an emergency.
6. WLTxD brings Explosive Growth in Republic and Democracy. This = many more worker squares = much more production, science, etc. Learn how to take advantage of this and you'll see why we all scoff at the Pyramids.

I'm pretty mouthy for a non-expert. Just hang out here (and maybe join a succession Game in the civ2 General forum) and you'll learn a ton, fast.

Good Gravy is aways welcome here!!

[Gravy Smoothie]

::reads::
::brain expands::

Gravy

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by -Jrabbit

I'm pretty mouthy for a non-expert.

Me too.

A lot of wonders only make sense in certain situations. For example, I think you built Marco Polo too late. I'm also not a Pyramids fan... especially with so few cities for the free Granary benefit.

If going for AC - build HG, Colossus, MPE in the early game.

If going for conquest - build HG, Lighthouse, perhaps MPE and Sun Tzu...

If you're going to get Marco Polo, get it early and then trade techs wisely with it. And gift lots of techs to the AI's so they'll trade maps with you. That can save a lot of exploring (and lost triremes), and avoid nasty surprises (like the Japanese next to you).

Building HG... make sure the city with the Gardens in it is in a position to celebrate in Monarchy. That's a huge benefit.

Colossus - if built in the city with HG, can make for huge trade bonuses. Send lots of caravans from this city. If you're trying to win a AC-trade-perfectionist style game, this is a good strategy (build Newton and Copernicus and Shakespeare here, too - the Super Science city).

If you want to win by conquest... build lots more cities, Lighthouse, Sun Tzu, and avoid Colossus. Great Wall is of no use, because the AI will probably be on the defensive throughout a conquest-oriented game.

[Gravy Smoothie]

Originally posted by DaveV



If I can't build Sun Tzu's, I'll build barracks in a few high-production cities, and strategic cities near the front line. All attack and defense factors are rounded to the nearest 1/8, so vet crusaders are 7.5/2/2. A vet fortified pikeman on a river defends at 10.125 against crusaders.

Do you mean 7.5/1.5/2?
I figured it was just a typo, considering your math skills are no doubt considerable (look! a .125! )


Gravy

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Gravy Smoothie 1. ... And, with units who have odd A/D values (i.e. Crusaders), do those round up or down with veteran status? (is a Veteran Crusader an 8/2/2 unit or a 7/1/2 unit?)

Gravy Smoothie

I believe it is more complicated than a straight choice between rounding up or down (ie between an 8/2/2 and a 7/1/2 veteran crusader). The program adds up all the bonuses that operate and then applies them, rounding down. For attack (where there are normally no other bonuses) you add 50% rounded down so a vet crusader attacks at 7. For defence what happens depends on the other bonuses. For a vet crusader on plains the program rounds down to make it defend at 1. But in a forest there are 2 50% bonuses (total 100%) so it defends at 2 - ie on defence you benefit from the 50% veteran bonus if another 50% bonus operates - eg being fortified or in a forest. The Great Library has a more detailed explanation of the bonuses.

rjmatsleepers

[Gravy Smoothie]

Well here's three more logs...the first game I spawned on a medium island mostly covered in swamps and forests...I ended up retiring early because I had still a better idea of how I wanted to start my game the next time. The next two games, Barbs and the Chinese wiped me out early, respectively. This gave me a new respect for city walls but I have a game going right now, it's about 1670 AD, I've got 14 cities, a half-decent SSC (although I was beaten to Copern's, I've got Colossus, Isaac Newton's, and a Lib and University in a City with two spice and 4 or 5 water tiles). On top of that, I've got Leo's, so now it's a rush to find people and deliver them caravans (just found the Mongols, dropeed off a few shipments). THat log will be up as son as I win or lose that game.

Here are the three losers, as always comments welcome:

4000 BC No start techs. Much forest.
3850 Hut = archers.
3750 Hut = archers.
3550 Hut = Horseback.
3500 Gravy Train founded. (pheasant, buffalo)
3350 Hut = Warrior Code.
3150 Carmarthen founded. (whale)
3100 Hut = Chariot.
2900 Hut = 50g.
2650 Ceremonial Burial.
2550 Hut = The Wheel.
2300 Hut = Archers, disbanded.
2000 Armagh founded. (whale)
1550 Alphabet.
1400 Caernarfon founded. (pheasant, fish)
1200 Barbs land, die. Capture leader.
925 Bronze Working.
775 Tintagel founded.
550 Code of Laws.
450 Someone builds Pyramids.
425 Indians build Colossus. Caerphilly (spice) founded, Cork founded.
300 Aztecs build Hanging Gardens.
225 Monarchy, Rhymney founded (peat, pheasant.)
200 Vikings build Lighthouse.
25 Map Making.
1 AD Slow game, but I am not so worried. I'm no doubt behind technologically, but let's see what I can do to catch up.
80 Swamp cleared, Iona founded (pheasant, peat, spice, whale).
120 Currency, I'll be able to build MPE in one turn with Trade...
240 Illauntanig founded. Hut = NONE settlers.
260 TRADE.
280 Marco Polo's built in Armagh. Acquire Writing, Masonry, Mysticism from Babylonians by trades (didn't give 'em Monarchy though). Gift 50 Gold to Aztecs, trade Writing for Construction, gift Trade for maps. Gift The Wheel to Vikings, trade Warrior Code for Literacy, gift Trade for maps. Got 16 techs now, 15 of which are on the paths to Monarchy, Mono or Demo.
300 Check requirements for Navigation, then talk to Indians, gift Literacy, trade Monarchy for Math.
440 Trade Mysticism for Seafaring to Vikings, sign alliance, request gift, nothing.
500 Talk to Indians, gift a tech or two, trade for Philosophy (before I discover it and waste the advance, instead of maybe getting Navigation next turn) and for Poly.
520 Trade Philo for Pottery to Vikings, they cancel alliance.
620 Gift to Babylonians, then trade for Astronomy.
700 Land two caravans, Aztecs declare war.
720 Retire this game, been reading up on succession games, came to some obvious realizations: it's much easier to colonize other continents than I realized, and by caravans you mean A FRIGGIN LOT OF CARAVANS


I'll post 2 and 3 in the next message.

Gravy

[Gravy Smoothie]

Stupid Chinese:

4000 BC We've got bronze working and CB. Hut yields NONE chariot,
3950 Capital founded (fish), begins warriors. Wise men start work on developing the most reknowned song ever written (A, B, C, D...etc)
3900 N of Capital founded (pheasant), begins warriors.
3700 Song completed, begin researching Code of Laws.
3550 Hut East of Capital yields E of Capital (fish), begins warriors. Nof Capital builds phalanx (whoops) and switches to settlers.
3400 Code of Laws discovered, wise men begin working on a way for newly invented "criminals" to post bail.
3350 Explorationeast brings us into contact with a Mongol horseman, trade CoL for Map Making, sign (temporary) peace treaty.
3300 Hut reveals barb horseman, Mongol horseman kills it (thanks!)
3200 Hut = masonry.
3000 Our chariot finds Karakorum, attacks, kills phalanx. Warrior dispatches our chariot.
2850 N of Cap builds settlers.
2650 Wise men discover Currency, (still can't research MONARCHY! or TRADE!) begin Writing. Watch barbs hassle Mongols.
2600 NE of Capital founded.
2500 Stupid me...barbs take NE of Capital.
2450 I destroy NE of Capital, found SE of Capital.
1850 NE of Capital re-founded, Chinese destroy Mongols.
1750 Writing, start researching Monarchy.
1600 Chinese threaten if we don't gift writing, we refuse, war
1550 Chinese Take E of Capital, Writing...
over the next 600 years, the Chinese overrun me with chariots.
GRAVY SMOOTHIE WILL RETURN!
*sigh*


Stupid Barbs:

4000 BC No starting techs. Take 4 founded (fish).
3950 Wise men begin studying CB.
3700 Dicover CB, begin researching Alphabet.
3650 Happyville founded NE of capital (2x spice).
3350 Alphabet written, begin studying Bronze Working.
2900 Bronze Working, start on CoL.
2500 Take 4 builds settlers.
2300 CoL, start Monarchy.
2150 Barbs drop a pair of archers next to Take 4.
2100 Archer kills one warrior, second warrior activated, kills archer.
2050 Settlers disbanded.
1600 Happyville builds Settlers.
1550 Monarchy, start Currency.
975 Currency, start Trade. Barbs land near Take 4.
950 Barbs get raped by phalanx.
900 Doin' Alright founded S of capital.
800 Temples rushbought in Take 4, Happyville.
700 Trade discovered, Take 4 switched to Caravan, Happyville building Colossus.
675 Optimism founded.
600 I run into Babylonians, gift Trade. Rogue archer attacks Doin' Alright, kills warrior, I activate 2nd warrior, attack, that one gets killed too.
575 Barbs take Doin' Alright.
525 Phalanx attacks Doin' Alright, dies.
500 For Christ's sake. Barbs kill my caravan. Retire...

[Scouse Gits]

Very hard to make constructive comments from these logs - at first glance you are suffering from a lack of offensive defence - you need a scattering of horsies to take out the interlopers before they get to attack you - once again you attacked the AI before you were ready to punish them - as a general rule (straight out of Sun Tzu) only attack when victory is certain. Could you post the odd save game - this would make commentary more accurate.

SG[1]

[Straybow]

On the swampy game, why did you quit? It is quite possible to build a winning game from that position. 720 AD is only 116 turns into the 400 turn game (Deity timeline; somewhat farther along on lower difficulties). Maybe a .sav would explain better.

On the third (fourth?) game you had only two cities, and then said, "2050 Settlers disbanded." Why disband Settlers? Either add the settlers to an existing city (using the "B" command while in the city tile) or found a new city. Again, retirement seems premature… the struggle to salvage a rotten turn of events is part of civ.

[Gravy Smoothie]

SG -- You're right, what I had learned from those two games was to put a bit more focus on defense towards the beginning.. The game i'm almost done with is going much better.

Straybow -- I'm looking at the log right now, and I can't figure out what "disbanded settlers" is, whether for some reason there was a food shortage, or I built them into a city, or what. Beats me.

Keep you all posted, thanks so much for all your help.

Gravy

[-Jrabbit]

DON'T BUILD CITY WALLS EARLY -- It's a real waste of shields unless you have a city actively exposed to a nasty opponent. All you really need to fend off barbs is a fortified 2 defender (phalanx) and a move = 2 unit (horse or chariot, preferably from hut). Diplomats are also great barb killers -- you literally buy the units you need to survive, and they don't require support.

[Gravy Smoothie]

Here it is, folks:

4000 BC Start with Alphabet, Bronze, CB, CoL.
3950 Hut = horsies, hut = Pottery.
3900 Take 5 founded (wheat).
3850 Wise men get crankin on Monarchy.
3700 NO PILLAGE (oasis) founded.
3650 Hut = NONE nomads.
3550 Hut = Advanced Tribe, renamed to Advanced Tribe. (spice)
3450 Monarchy, monarchy. Yay for Oedo years.
3300 Hut = archers.
3150 Currency.
3050 Knock on Wood founded (buffalo, coal).
2750 Trade. Barbs destroy American civilization.
2450 Hut = barb horsie, kills mine.
2250 Discover writing, start Masonry.
1950 Barb chariot attacks Take 5, dies.
1750 Two barb horsies appear right next to my settler, must be a civ to the East.
1700 Horsies kill both warriors in Advanced Tribe.
1650 Settler miraculously holds against both horsemen.
1600 Knock on Wood somehow disappeared whil I wasn't paying attention; refounded.
1550 Masonry discovered, start Mysticism.
1450 Damn Barbs founded. Temple rushed in Advanced Tribe.
975 Mysticism, start Literacy.
925 Still Alive founded (fish).
700 With the help of three caravans, Advanced Tribe builds Colossus, switches production oders to Settlers. Take 5 builds Temple, switches to City Walls, we discover Literacy, start researching Republic.
450 Republic (!) start on Philosophy, begin revolution for growth spurt.
425 We are a Republic! Luxuries set to 60%. Someone builds HG.
400 Damn Barbs builds Temple, Take 5, Advanced Tribe celebrate.
275 Lux to 80%.
225 Wow., Boo-Yah founded.
200 We revolt, Puberty founded.
125 Back to Monarchy.
1 AD We are flourishing. Golden Age of Philosophy begins in Take 5, we learn Math and start Astronomy. Beginning to run some internal trade routes.
100 Looks like Aztecs are gonna beat me to Copern's, oh well.
160 5:11 PM founded (2x wheat).
240 Horseback Riding, start University.
320 Hut becomes AT #2 (wheat).
360 University, starty Theory of Gravity.
380 Hut = AT #3, exploration by AT #2 reveals that both a whale and fish just out of reach, going to disband city. Aztec diplo comes, we trade techs, we refuse to give University, they declare war, bribe Still Alive.
480 We liberate Still Alive, take Seafaring. Hut = legion.
520 We pay 50 gold, sign treaty with Aztecs. Barbs take 5:11 PM.
560 We discover Theory of Gravity, start on Construction, Sprawl founded.
720 We discover Construction, start The Wheel.
740 Greeks land, we gift two techs, peace.
760 Celtic catapult liberates 5:11 PM, AT #2 disbanded.
800 Bi-Special founded (whale, fish).
860 Advanced Tribe builds University, starts Isaac Newton.
940 The Wheel, start Engineering.
1020 Advanced Tribe builds Isaac Newton.
1040 Whoa, Germans build Mike's. We get Engineering, Start Invention.
1240 Invention.
1420 Banking, start Demo.
1550 Demo, revolution.
1570 Aztecs build SoL.
1580 Democracy, Lux 80%.
1590 about 8 cities celebrating.
1600 Pop from 1.72M to 2.02M.
1620 Pop = 2.33M.
1660 Back to Monarchy, several caravans on their way. Trade techs with Greeks (gain Bridge Building, Poly, Physics.)
1710 Land in Mongol territory, sign peace treat, get maps.
1720 Three trade routes established.
1730 Wow, tons of micromanaging.
1750 Economics, start Steam Engine.
1760 Germans build Darwin's, Aztecs build Adam Smith.
1764 5 caravans, diplomat arrive at the Mongol city of Aleppo, yielding about 300 beakers, an embassy, and a neutral standing. I trade for warrior code, feudalism, chivalry and gunpowder.
1766 Currently researching medicine. Talk to Aztecs, gift 150 gold, trade for Iron Working, Sanitation, and Magnetism.
1784 Mongols want Magnetism, no: war.
1794 Celtic diplo steals Industrialization , international incident with Greeks. Steal Metallurgy as well.
1804 We steal Conscription, Leadership, Railroad as Greeks get 'em.
1808 4 Caravans arrive in Nagasaki.
1810 Explosives, start Electricity. Talk to Aztecs, Trade Explosives for Corporation, gift 250 gold, alliance, maps, get 150 gold back from them.
1824 Gift Chem to Mongols, end war, trade Explosives for Commie, begin revolution. Commie to Aztecs for Tactics, they end alliance. Two caravans arrive in Kyoto, establish embassy with Japanese.
1828 Communism. Greeks end war, we trade Tactics for Steel.
1836 Finally make contact with Germans, gift Chemistry, trade something for Mono, establish embassy.
1838 Two caravans arrive in Aztec city of Tlacopan. Embassy established.
1842 Trade Greeks for Atomic Theory, Refining.
1851 Finagle Theology from Germans, start JS.
1853 Guerilla Warfare, start Espionage. Trade Theology for Combustion to Aztecs.
1854 Steel to Aztecs for Flight. Combustion to Greeks for Amph Warfare.
1863 Knock on Wood discovers Cure for Cancer.
1864 Transport with 8 freights off to Beijing.
1865 Espionage, trade for Machine Tools, start Radio.
1870 Score Automobile, Refrigeration from Aztecs.
1877 12 caravans arrive in various cities, score about 1200 gold/beakers. Machine Tool for Mass Production to Aztecs. Revolution
1879 Democracy.
1880 14/14 cities celebrating.
1881 Population from 3.93M to 4.90M.
1882 Tacitus declares us the most advanced civilization , population from 4.90M to 5.90M. Score Mobile Warfare from Greeks.
1883 Population from 5.90M to 7.01M.
1884 Population from 7.01M to 7.79M.
1885 Population from 7.79M to 8.37M.
1886 Population from 8.37M to 8.86M.
1887 Population to 8.90M, luxuries reduced to 20%. Trade for Fundy, Labor Union, Nuclear Fission.
1891 Been building food caravans in a lot of places for a few turns (gettin ready for the advent of Space Flight.)
1893 We gift Advanced Flight to Germans. 8 Caravans arrive in German city of Cologne (500 beakers/gold) then we trade for Computers.
1894 9 Freights built, we score Miniaturization and Nuclear Power from Greeks.
1895 Advanced Tribe builds SETI Program ...Japanese develop Monarchy!
1896 Bored Engineers go on a railroading frenzy.
1901 The Laser, start Space Flight.
1902 We have 23 Freights, 10 in production.
1904 Aztecs develop Space Flight, start Apollo...hm.
1908 Germans develop Space Flight, we score it.
1909 Advanced Tribe builds Apollo program, Aztecs discover Plastics, we discover Plastics. This one's gonna be down to the wire.
1910 Aztecs build 1 Structural. We build 11 components. Taxes jacked to 80/0/20 (we'll steal Superconductor from the Aztecs.)
1912 Aztecs discover Superconductor. We give them 550 gold, enter an alliance, they give us Superconductor.
1914 Our spaceship thus far: 4/14/0/0/0.
1918 Our ship: 14/16/1/0/0. Aztecs: 9/4/1/0/0.
1921 We have 17/16/1/1/1, Aztecs can launch soon if they want, but I will catch them if they do.
1924 No Fusion Power, but our ship is 33/16/1/1/1. Aztecs Launch 15/6/1/1/1, ETA 1944. We launch, ETA at Alpha Centauri 1931
1928 We build Superhighways out of boredom. Engineers occupy their time building railroads and cleaning up pollution.
1929 Greek spies steal Plastics, Space Flight. Good for you, guys.
1930 I Win founded, non-occupied Engineers build into it.
1931 I win. I ended tied for 5th on the civilization Powergraph, with a score of 527 and a rating of 68%.

There are still a lot of things to work on with my gameplay. This includes much increased expansion (there was plenty of available land), better building and use of caravans, building more settlers, especially when I engineer WLT* days, etc. More feedback is welcome, and my final save is posted here.

Gravy Smoothie

[-Jrabbit]

Congrats, Gravy! I know and remember that feeling well!

Haven't downloaded and looked, but the thing that stood out to me was that you weren't ready for the representative governments when you switched to them. Republic is very limiting in terms of military, esp. the number out in the field. Demo is also restrictive, but is easier to control.

You need to prepare for the govt changes so that you really take advantage of them instead of falling into internal revolt. Typically, I use Republic to get most of my cities to Size 8, and once I get into Democracy (if I'm going to AC), I try to stay there.

That alone should get your score into 700-plus, around 100% area.

Oh, and learn to love Adam Smith's Trading Company, the WoW that pays for itself!!

WAY TO GO, GRAVY SMOOTHIE!!!!!!!!

[Scouse Gits]

Glad you made it Gravy Smoothie

I have had a look at your 1930 save and it is a remarkable win because you did things the hard way The only happiness wonders you built were Shake's and CfC. At Deity the Hanging Gardens is a key wonder. Unlike the Colossus it offers some benefit to every city in your empire, and is essential for early expansion.

It is difficult to sustain Republic or Demo without Mike's and/or Bach's. The purpose of these forms of government is to grow your cities to their maximum quickly.

One quote in your log caught my attention
1928 We build Superhighways out of boredom.
You should build them as soon as you can after discovering Automobile. They vastly increase your trade, enhance your freight bonuses and give better permanent routes.

Good luck with the next win!

-----------------------------

SG(2)

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Good work!

You'll find it gets easier, too. Some fine tuning is required, of course

I second SG(2)'s thought regarding wonders. You'll make your life a lot easier with HG and Michelangelo. There's a thread in the Strategy forum on favorite wonders, and HG is at the top of almost everyone's list. It lets you build a lot more small cities early in the game without unhappiness, and helps you celebrate more easily. It's not crucial... but it is a huge help.

And if you're bored... build CARAVANS