What's the formula for HURRY cost?

[Frankie]

I wandered through the Datalinks for a long time. It has formulae for everything else, but I didn't find the energy cost for hurrying production.

Some empirical testing revealed that for base facilities, the cost is 2x minerals if you're on the last 3 rows, 4x minerals if not. The cost for units is higher, but I didn't see a strict pattern.

I assume it's a function of total cost, minerals remaining, and your SE.

[Adam_Smith]

You have the factors right except for one. You have to add a % minerals remaining. Every turn you wait to rush something the more the cost decreases (exponentially). That's why you should have good minerals production as well as good SE settings (industry and economy).

[Ned]

Adam_Smith, As far as I can tell, if you go have 10 minerals for a city improvement or a unit, the cost are respectfully 2 and 3 credits to by one mineral to complete the improvement or worker. With an SP, the costs is 4 credits for one mineral after 10% of the project's minerals are in the bag.

In Civilization, there was a similar high cost for rush building units versus improvements. A familar trick was to pay for sufficient minerals while a building was selected for build - which cost less - and then switch the production to the unit.

This "bug" has somewhat been solved in SMACX by "reducing" the number of minerals to ten when one switch production, except if one switches from one SP to another.

Which brings me to my own two questions. I have in the past forced the AI to switch production away from, let us say, a PB to a sentry unit by attacking with a Copter on a long range suicide mission. To my horror, after the sentry has been produced and production swicthed back to the PB on the next turn, all the minerals lost in switching from PB return! How? Do I understand the rules here?

The second question concerns the rule against rush builds. Knowing that the first ten minerals are needed in order to reduce the costs for the balance, the game will not let you do two rush builds in one turn. However, there seems to be an exception. If one rush builds one "kind" of unit, and then switches to a different "kind" of unit, then a second rush build seems to be possible. Am I seeing things?

This would seem to permit a rush build of a scout to 10 minerals at a cost of 50, and a second rush build in the same turn of a city improvement for two credits per unit. This would seemingly permit the impermissible.

But, alas, there will be some who will point out that if you rush build the previous unit and pay more than you need to pay by 20 credits - you will buy 10 extra minerals that will carry over to the next turn. These, in turn will permit you to rush build the next improvement on the next turn at the lower 2 credit per mineral cost.

But - if the next item in the build queue is a military unit, do you still get 10 minerals if you overpay for the city improvement by 20 credits? I have never checked.

Ned

[Basil]

Re: the AI question. I don't know the answer to this; have never looked at things closely enough to even notice the issue. *But* it's likely that the AI simply has different rules than players, and this isn't necessarily a problem.

Consider someone building a PB at a safe base. You come along and kill the garrison. An AI, unaware of the strategic situation, cancels the PB to build a new garrison, while a player will simply move a garrison in from a neighbouring base. It would make sense, then to make the rules on changing production less harsh on the AI than on players. It's also much much easier than writing all the code needed for the AI to actually plan for the future and build appropriately now.

[Frankie]

quote: You have to add a % minerals remaining. Every turn you wait to rush something the more the cost decreases (exponentially).

Yes, but... what's the exact formula? It's odd that the game provides complete mathematical details for everything except HURRY.

[BustaMike]

You guys are making this too complicated. I'm not sure of the exact formula, but it's something like this.

If you rush build any city improvement every mineral bought costs 2 energy (I think this is the case for SP's too)

Military units cost double that, 4 energy per mineral. It may be only 3 per min, I'll have to check. Either way it's more expensive than improvements.

If you have not completed the first 10 minerals (or the first 10% of an SP) the rush build cost is double.

There is no exponential relationship at all. It is purely linear. Just make sure you have the 1st 10 minerals completed.

Also, up to 10 minerals can carry over to the next build queue. This will allow you to rush build something w/o the cost doubling every turn provided you get all ten minerals to carry over.

Here's my best guess at the exact forumla:

Cost* = (# Minerals bought)*(Mineral cost)

*Double if first 10 min aren't completed

Mineral cost = 2 for improvements, 3 or 4 (somebody check this) for units.
[This message has been edited by BustaMike (edited April 18, 2000).]

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

My understanding of rush build costs was the same as Busta Mikes.

Which brings up a good point. If you have scads of energy to burn and plan on rush buying most everything for awhile. All you really need is cities of mineral production 10. Rush build turn 1. Turn 2 10 minerals are applied to next item and rush build at cheapest cost again. Anything over 10 gets wasted or makes you have to do math to make sure you are just carrying over 10 minerals. Any city with less than 10 minerals and you have to wait a turn or tow to break the 10 mineral threshold (or alternatively partially rush build up to 10 minerals at the 4 energy/mineral cost)


[This message has been edited by Ogie Oglethorpe (edited April 18, 2000).]

[Aredhran]

For best results in "chain rush", try this (good Morgan strategy )... assuming that you already have 10 or more minerals produced at the base

As pointed above, you need bases with 10+ mineral production.

Let A be the mineral production
Let B be the cost to hurry the building
Let C be the cost of one mineral box (2 for buildings, 3 for units, 4 for projects)

Minimal cost = B - (A - 10) * C

This will ensure that you have 10 minerals carried over for the following turn's rush, with no wasted energy.

Aredhran
-Hope I did not screw up my formula up there-

[Adam_Smith]

Very interesting. Sounds like I was wrong about the formula being exponential. If it's linear that will definitly change the way I play for the better.

I suppose you guys figured this out through observation, because I couldn't find anything in the book.

One more thing. Has anyone use partial payment to get secret projects up to the 10% level then rushed the next turn?

[Helium Pond]

Here's the formula that I got from some other post on these forums:

For facilities:
Before the first ten are done: 4 per mineral.
After that: 2 per.

For units:
If you don't have the first ten done, everything is twice as expensive, but after that, the costs are:
-- the last 5 minerals are 2 per.
-- the previous 10 (ie from half-way through the second to last row to half-way through the last row) are 3 per
-- previous 10 again cost 4 each, etc.


For secret projects:
If the first ten are not done, you will pay 16 per mineral. After the first ten are done, you will pay 8 per mineral until 10% have been built. After 10% is done, you will pay 4 per mineral.

These formulas are accurate for me about 70% of the time. I would say the facilities and Secret Projects are always right, the unit costs seem to be really close but sometimes off.

[Adam_Smith]

Yeah,

Hellium Pond has it right. The units do vary some how. I have some numbers here that seem to come from a more complex formula, maybe exponential.

A cruiser fungicidal former (prototype) with less than 10 minerals so far:
90 minerals remaining
1170 hurry cost
that's 13 ec per mineral

3-res sentinal with less than 10 minerals so far:
18 minerals remaining
104 hurry cost
that's between 5 and 6 ec per mineral

I think prototype might be a factor some how. Also, the former is much more expensive that's why I think there might be exponentiality.

I'm going to get more numbers as I come across them.

[Ned]

Guys, I would still like to know if you buy the extra 10 mineral making a city improvement in turn A, and do you get 10 minerals to begin the next turn B if the next thing in the queue is a military unit or an SP? After all, the mineral costs for each are different, and if one can pay 2 credits for 10 military unit minerals, which normally cost 3, that seems like a deal.

Also, there seems to be a bug on multiple rushes in one turn. One can do more than one rush if one changes the type of thing being built. This seems to imply that one could partially rush build a city improvement at a low cost, and then switch to military unit and compete build with a second rush. A lot of the military units minerals will be purchased at the lower cost. Is this right?

[Enigma]

Adam-
*never* rush a SP!! This is incredibly inefficient. The costs per mineral are I think 4, definatley not 2. Instead build a crawler at a city and then upgrade it. In the very early game 50 minerals worth of crawler upgrades costs you $90, which isn't half bad. Remember I say 50 minerals worth of upgrades- on a 30 min inf chassis that is 80 minerals. The cost is drastically increased for rover supply units with armor.

[Adam_Smith]

Ned,

I think you are right about rushing two things at the same base in one turn. I did that once with a Special Project. I rushed a cheap military unit. Then I switched to the Special Project. Then I rushed the Project. It might have been a faculity. I dont remember for sure.

Enigma,

I have no idea what you are saying. Sorry

Here is some more numbers

Skimship supply:

1 mineral needed
2 ec to rush

missle infanty artillery:

1 mineral needed
2 ec to rush

3 res sentinal:

12 more needed out of 18
74 ec to rush
That is between 5 and 6 ec per mineral

The last one is interesting, because it was with +4 industry. The numbers for the other sentinal are very similar, but it was with +1 industry.

[Mongoose]

3-res sentinal with less than 10 minerals so far:
18 minerals remaining
104 hurry cost

First 5 mins. at 2 per is 10, next 10 mins. at 3 per is 30, last 3 mins. at 4 per is 12 more...total 52, which is doubled because the first 10 mins aren't yet completed.


12 more needed out of 18
74 ec to rush

This is odd. First 5 mins. at 2 per is 10, next 7 mins at 3 per is 21 for a total of 31 that should be (I thought) doubled to 62.

Assuming the doubling factor for having less than 10 mins. in the unit is valid, some combination of factors must yield a cost of 37 ec before doubling.

That the difference between 31 and 37 is 6, which is exactly the number of mineral boxes in a row at +4 INDUSTRY, must not be a coincidence. Seems there is a penalty of 1 ec per box for one of the rows, on top of the 5 x 2, 10 x 3, balance x 4 rubric.

No idea why it applies here and not in the prior example. In both, the unit was 1/3 complete.

Hmmmm. Curiouser and curiouser!

[ChrisShaffer]

Enigma, while it is usually optimal to upgrade an infantry-chassis Supply Crawler (by adding armour) and then cash it in towards a Secret Project (similar to Caravans in Civ), that isn't always the best solution.

First, there are times when the Supply Crawler is unavailable, either because you can't build them (pre-Industrial Automation) or because of the tactical situation.

Second, if you want to rush that last turn or two of the Secret Project - sometimes a Supply Crawler would provide too many minerals.

p.s. how often do you actually build Rover Supply Crawlers? That seems like a waste of time for a unit that will be sitting in one square most of the game.

[Adam_Smith]

quote: Originally posted by Mongoose on 04-19-2000 03:08 AM 5 x 2, 10 x 3, balance x 4 rubric.

Is this the formula? What if you need more than 25 minerals?

Here's another one. I haven't been able to record with more than 10 minerals so far.

R-Laser Penetrator
There is one bar complete. I don't know if that matters.

9/30 complete
hurry cost = 128
That is a little over 6 ec per mineral.

Trained R-Laser Penetrator
There is one bar complete.

9/36 complete
hurry cost = 180
That is also between 6 and 7 ec per mineral, but a little closer to 7.

It seems to me so far that the cost increases exponentially, but very slow. Unless you are building a prototype. Then the cost increases faster. It could be a function that is linear, but that increases faster at successive points like MOngoose's.

[Adam_Smith]

quote: Originally posted by Helium Pond on 04-18-2000 06:28 PM For units: If you don't have the first ten done, everything is twice as expensive, but after that, the costs are: -- the last 5 minerals are 2 per. -- the previous 10 (ie from half-way through the second to last row to half-way through the last row) are 3 per -- previous 10 again cost 4 each, etc. off.

This formula seems to fit with my observations except for prototype cruiser fungicidal former, and the first 3-res sentinel (and I could have made a bad record on that one).

[Mongoose]

The first one fits the model:

21 mins total, with 10 mins not yet reached-

first 5 at 2, next 10 at 3, last 6 at 4 = 64, doubled to 128.

The second one, is odd again. 27 mins. needed with 10 mins not yet reached.

Hmmm, maybe another level at 5 per...

first 5 at 2, next 10 at 3, next 10 at 4, last 2 at 5 = 90!! Doubled to 180. Could be it.

Were either of these examples at +4 INDUSTRY?

That one from above seems increasingly odd, and it was odd to begin with.

[Adam_Smith]

Mongoose,

I calculated them both the jets as fitting the formula. Also, I went and did the math for the prototype former and it also fits into the formula.

Yes, both the jets were with +4 INDUSTRY

[Frankie]

Okay, it looks like the only factor is the number of mineral boxes remaining (so your Industry SE is important). And if you've done less than 10 minerals of work so far, the cost is doubled.

quote: 3-res sentinal, less than 10 minerals so far, 18 minerals remaining = 104 hurry cost

first 5 minerals x2 = 10 cost
next 10 minerals x3 = 30 cost
last *3 minerals x4 = 12 cost
subtotal 52 doubled = 104 correct!

quote: cruiser fungicidal former (prototype), less than 10 minerals so far, 90 minerals remaining = 1170 hurry cost

first 5 x2 = 10
next 10 x3 = 30
next 10 x4 = 40
next 10 x5 = 50
next 10 x6 = 60
next 10 x7 = 70
next 10 x8 = 80
next 10 x9 = 90
next 10 x10 = 100
last 5 x11 = 55
subtotal 585 doubled = 1170 correct!

Hmm...what happens if you do a partial payment to complete 10 minerals, then hurry again? Secret savings, or does SMAC keep track?

Thanks much for the info, everyone. For the record, the Unit Hurry formula is NOT exponential, it's a polynomial algorithm with O(n^2).

[This message has been edited by Frankie (edited April 20, 2000).]

[Frankie]

Final word on the Unit Hurry Formula

Some quick fiddling with statistical software determined the following best fit curve:

H(x) = 2*x + (x^2)/20

where x is the number of minerals remaining. Remember to double the result if you're less than 10 complete.

[Adam_Smith]

x^2 is exponential

[Ned]

Is this right?

Objective: Build 300 mineral SP in one turn, no crawlers, lowest cost possible.

Start with 10 minerals. City makes 10 minerals per turn.

Pay $1120 for a city improvement. You now have 570 minerals.

Switch to SP. You now have 290 minerals. ((570-10)/2) The SP completes in the next turn.

Is this right. And is this the lowest cost?

[Adam_Smith]

quote: Originally posted by Ned on 04-19-2000 11:20 PM Pay $1120 for a city improvement. You now have 570 minerals.

Ned,

I don't think there are any city improvements that are that expensive. According to what has been said, I think the best thing to do would be to get the 10 minerals first. Then rush a faculity that will give you 20% of the minerals needed to complete your SP. Then switch to the Special Project. On the next turn rush the Project.

Of course if you are the drones just go with +4 industry and save money

[Enigma]

Most expensive facility is a Nanoreplicator- at 320 that is only 620 to rush it in.

When I say I use rover supply that is not for normal use... that is to artificially raise the mineral cost as high as possible. I prefer to keep my city queues as flexible as possible, that is one of my highest priorities when I am building an empire. To that means I build crawlers then upgrade them- meaning the incredible strain on a city's production is spread around your empire and the cost of building that SP is more evenly distributed. A rover supply costs like 60 and can be upgraded to 180 cost or something- saving that particular city 120 minerals of building time. Once you are able to get a good economy super bases that focus on industry are much less important.

[Enigma]

And exactly what are these formulas for? Frankie that formula does not come even close to fitting a recycling tanks with 30 remaining- facility hurry costs are very very simplistic. It costs 60 to complete 30 minerals in a recycling tanks after the first 10.

Somewhere in the datalinks I read SP's have a hurry cost of 4, units have a cost of 3, and facilities have a cost of 2. The unit formula seems much much more complex though..

[Adam_Smith]

Enigma,

Ok, now I understand about the rover crawlers, but what do you uprade them to. I've used that strategy before with High tech low industry factions.

Frankies formula is for units. I haven't tested it yet. Has anybody. I think someone should graph it, and the real one. Maybe I will, but I'm pretty busy.

[Ned]

Adam, You can buy as many low cost minerals as you want - Here is the trick:

Select hurry. Select partial payment. Pay any $ you want. If the number is more than the cost of the facility, it will be accepted and you get the minerals. The extra minerals will be shown in red in the production box.

You then switch production to your SP. Minerals are lost according to the fomula:

Remaing = (Minerals - 10)/2.

This means, in essence, you can buy an SP in one turn with relatively low cost minerals.

Morgan should be invincible.

Ned

[Frankie]

quote: Frankie that formula does not come even close to fitting a recycling tanks ... The unit formula seems much much more complex though..

Yes, that's why I said it was the (approximate) formula for unit hurry cost. Facilities are easy.

Adam_Smith, 2^x would be exponential. x^2 is only polynomial. There is a big difference. With an exponential function, you would have to pay about 1 billion energy for that fungicidal cruiser prototype you mentioned earlier.

Adam, I am a math teacher, so please stop. I will send an email to explain them to you.

[This message has been edited by Frankie (edited April 20, 2000).]