History of the Rise, Glory, Decline and Fall of the Ottoman Empire - Page 2

jim panse · January 4, 2003, 06:39

you have to know that some kind of grassland must not mean huge productivity

and yes, boco, constructive critics are always welcome

tanelorn · January 4, 2003, 06:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Heresson
I don't like the map.

I'm cruel, I know, but it gives You a chance to correct it.

Hey didn't you say you 'd be lacking an internet connection today? What are the mistakes on that other map you didn't like? I promise I'll haunt you till I get an answer

Seriously now, you have to answer me

Heresson · January 4, 2003, 09:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Boco
Umm...Maybe some constructive criticisim, Heresson the Cruel

. Is it the appearance, the scale, the distribution of terrain, or something else? My first gut reaction is that there may be too much 'nice' terrain - I think Macedonia-to-Anatolia is pretty rugged (but then I've been reading about the Salonika debacle in WWI, lately). Then again, maybe other parts of @UNITS and @TERRAIN already reflect this.

Oh, the general shape of the landmass, the placement of rivers... It's just bad. Look at it and compare it to a geographical map to get what I mean. The map is sort of too
(forgive me the word) quickly made, with absolutely no thought to not only details, but also general shape.
Sorry that I'm complaining about it, but I consider map a very very important thing in a scenario. Don't worry.
i had many critical thoughts about a map used by Bernd Brosing in his first C&C for example.

Heresson · January 4, 2003, 09:39

Quote:

Originally posted by tanelorn

Hey didn't you say you 'd be lacking an internet connection today? What are the mistakes on that other map you didn't like? I promise I'll haunt you till I get an answer

Seriously now, you have to answer me

I will.

------

One important thing; I don't want to discourage anyone from making a scenario or making a map. Just make some effort, and I'm sure it will be better, and it will be better every next time You try.

jim panse · January 4, 2003, 12:02

heresson, you know that some kind of rolling areas or highlands are difficult to draw. also you know that rivers can´t be painted diagonal.

that´s enough of it. i´m making a proposal to you: i´ll post the map as a .zip file here and you may have an eye on the whole map. and i also mentioned that it´s only a first try of the map.

Heresson · January 4, 2003, 16:16

You can send it if You want.
I will see it. I know that giving a moderately good shape to the rivers is hard. I made some maps. I just claim You need to work more. Be more precise. lmake a general shape
of the landmass, all in one terrain, the one You'll use the most, and later start working with details of the coast.
If You'll, by the time You're doing that, notice that the general shape is wrong, do not hesitate to "move it"
in the right direction, no matter how hard it may seem at the start. Only when You are done with the coast, and are sure it is perfect, start with the rivers. As it is annoying to correct them, try to use some other terrain at the start to draw them. Look at your work from defferent views to make sure it is ok. Only when You're done with rivers
and coastline, start terrains.

Jay Bee · January 4, 2003, 16:33

Private Messages

Heresson · January 4, 2003, 16:38

Couldn't You mail me, then?
OK anyway. I deleted all PMs.

jim panse · January 5, 2003, 07:12

if i would know your email address i could send it to you ....

let me see, send me a pm or something like that.

i´m currently working on something completely different i´m going to release on, let me see, let´s say thursday or friday. more then.

also i´ve got a big exam at university this thursday, so don´t expect me to do too much till thursday evening.

down there is a zip file containing the map. have fun

Valuk · January 5, 2003, 17:12

The map really SHOULD be corrected. i believe that Herreson has some maps, since his scenarios have some pretty good ones.

master on high · January 6, 2003, 02:52

What you should do, is instead of created great swathes of a particular terrain (the plains leap to mind), you should place 3 or 4 terrains within a type of real climate. Say you want to make those carpathians, there are plenty of peaks and valleys, so break it up with some Mountain, Hill, and Grassland/Plain squares. Then, there are also lots of trees, so you can throw in Forest squares (only one or two every here and there). If anyone still has my Gigamap of Europe around, that's a pretty good example of what I mean.

Other climates to simulate:
Plains - Plains, Hills, Forests, and Grasslands.
Forests - Forests, Plains, Grasslands, and Hills

Desert and Tundra may be used in higher altitudes (VERY high altitudes), or warm and cool areas. Rainy forests would have jungles or swamps in them as well.

*shrugs* just some suggestions.

Heresson · January 7, 2003, 06:08

Quote:

Originally posted by jim panse
if i would know your email address i could send it to you ....

I am not able to get it now anyay

jim panse · January 7, 2003, 06:27

ok, i´ll make a proposal now: on late thursday evening i will sit down in front of my computer and redraw the map.

* why thursday? - the most important exam at university takes place on thursday, after it i will have some training. after training i will meet some friends of mine but than i promise to redraw the map. you may admire it friday morning.

Valuk · January 9, 2003, 08:08

One thing you should also include are the FORTS. Yes, you haven't misread. In reality, the balkan states of Bulgaria and Serbia(not to mention the emerging Wallachia) were sort of barbaric and actually had no real cities apart from those remnants from the Byzantine times that were respected as religious sites but were little more than villages. The real power lay inside the feudal lord's keep. Such keeps and castles sprang all over Serbia during the reign of and especially following the death of Dusan the Strong in 1355.
Also, the slavic balkan states had no real merchant class and depended on the Venetians, who had trading posts all over the land.
And so the monarch had only as much power as he had prestige, and that's why the petty lords fell one by one following the battle of the Strumitza river.
But the major points of resistance in the 14./15. centuries were:
Bulgaria: Rila Monastery
Founded by a Serbian prince in the 1330's in a valley due south of Sofia(and north of Kiustendil), the monastery quickly became the centre of Bulgarian resistance vs. the Turks, retaining autonomy and finally, breeding the first generation of bulgarian intellectuals, who greatly contributed to independance in 1878.

Serbia: Smederevo
Erected by the hate-filled despot of Serbia(I don't know which, George Brankovic perhaps) for defence against his feudal overlord, the Sultan in 1428, it was raised by Mehmed Chelebi in the 1460's.

Prilep
The macedonian castle was home to the legend of Marko Kraljevic, the embodyment of Serbic greatness and over-bloated nationalism

Byzantium: Athos
The monastery subdued to the Turks in the 1430's, following the conquest of Thessalonice, but remained a free spot for all of the Balkan nations(they also have a Srb and Bulgarian monastery up there)

Isthmus of Corinthus
The masive fortifications bulit by the imperial cadets of the Morea in the 1420's, then devastated by the Turks, then rebuilt, until it could be rebuilt no more.

Marmaran Islands
The towers there held their own until the Turks finally built a fleet and subdued them in 1453.

Enos
The curious little town kept itself free up until the 1470's, thought only by deceit and hommage to the current Sultan.

Philadelphia
It took the combined might of the ottoman army and the vassal Christian armies to scale the walls of the last imperial possession in Asia Minor in 1380. Sad story there.

Latins: Athens
The heavily fortified Acropolis held out against the assault of the young Constantine Palaiologos in 1430, its' Florentian duke Nero calling for help until the Turks came.
The mighty fort fell to Mehmet in 1459.

Perhaps I should have included Wallachia's Saxon castles and Belgrade nad of course the monastery at Kilia, but hey.
It would be an interesting concept if included, since it would show the stiff resistance that the Turks faced during their century-long trip through the Balkans.

jim panse · January 13, 2003, 05:35

ok, to keep things and discussion going, here´s a screenshot of the map i´m creating. i just finished the coastlines moretheless and i turn now to the rivers.

jim panse · January 13, 2003, 05:38

i´m not content with the north turkish coast, still working on it.

btw, i want to impede troops crossing rivers to make it even more realistic. (1) what do you think and (2) is it enough to lay another terrain type on the sqares where a river flows?

Palaiologos · January 15, 2003, 12:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Valuk
Philadelphia
It took the combined might of the ottoman army and the vassal Christian armies to scale the walls of the last imperial possession in Asia Minor in 1380. Sad story there.

And among them an Imperial army of 2.000.

Sad story indeed......

jim panse · January 15, 2003, 12:49

i just finished the map. wanna risk an eye?

Heresson · January 16, 2003, 08:20

Yes

Arthedain · January 16, 2003, 09:28

indeed.. let's see

jim panse · January 16, 2003, 10:59

Ok, it took me much longer than expected but here is the v0.6 of the map i will use.

This is the overview:

jim panse · January 16, 2003, 11:01

And some details ....

(the italian peninsula, as you may have guessed; don´t mind the units)

jim panse · January 16, 2003, 11:04

some more details ....

(feat. the Aegean Sea, Greece, the south-eastern part of the Balkans and the west coast of Minor Asia)

jim panse · January 16, 2003, 11:06

The weird area between the mountains and the hills should be some kind of highlands. This terrain type at least will be improved.

Valuk · January 16, 2003, 13:45

You should just probably borrow a map, Jim...Italy look alright in the north, but sort of corrupts near the south(Bari and Otranto), and that coast of Asia Minor looks horrid, sort of.
But at least if the map is large the final effect will be a good one.
I've seen worse maps before, especially the Cross & Crescent one which is well...a crime against good geography.

jim panse · January 16, 2003, 17:05

thanks for your nice words ...

i know that it´s not optimal and the map needs improving. i told you all before that it´s about v0.6 version. and you know really that diagonal lines can´t be drawn ....

whatever you think i will stick to that map. it took me nearly a week and i think the map isn´t that back you say. anyway, your opinion, my opinion. any opinions else? for good or ill are welcome

Valuk · January 21, 2003, 15:20

So, Jim, still working on it?

conmcb25 · January 23, 2003, 09:26

If Poland isn't on the Map, how are the Poles going to save Western Civilization at the Battle of Vienna?

Heresson · January 23, 2003, 12:22

Quote:

Originally posted by conmcb25
If Poland isn't on the Map, how are the Poles going to save Western Civilization at the Battle of Vienna?

Indeed, true! Only little part of Poland (Ukraine) is on the map...
Send it to Mercator/Jorrit Vermeiren, he will surely make it a bit bigger to fit more Poland in.

The map isn't perfect, but it's bearable.
I won't complain.
Not that I'm nice. Just that I'm making a map myself now and as I experience difficulties operating touchpad,
it won't be as perfectionist as it should be.

jim panse · January 24, 2003, 06:29

[quote]
The map isn't perfect, but it's bearable.
I won't complain.
Not that I'm nice. Just that I'm making a map myself now and as I experience difficulties operating touchpad,
it won't be as perfectionist as it should be.
[quote]

i see you know the problems.

i´ve got a lot of work still to do for my university studies. i´m sorry to leave you waiting but i´m currently a little bit short of time