France better than Germany?

[brianshapiro]

akka de vil.
dont be rude.
myself, i would say my comments say nothing that i would need more situations in life to know about.
[except where i was being obviously sloppy]/

[Heresson]

This can be greatly attributed to the obsolete airforces of Poland and Russia

First of all, not Russia but SU.
Secondly, Polish airforces weren't all that bad. They were just little. Ask someone about "los" bomber. It was the best in its class. All was taken by Romanians later (who gracefully oferred us to buy it from them after the war - Polish communists refused as they preferred to buy Soviet wooden airplanes...). Still, Poland had well-trained pilots, who scored 1/8 German losses in battle of England.

[TheStinger]

The Polish and Czech pilots were very important in the BOB

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by Heresson


First of all, not Russia but SU.

Gee Heresson, sometimes in the OT we aren't so quick to point that out....So when did Russia suddenly become the Soviet Union?

When its convinent for you?

(This is useful for so many situations)

ACK!

[Heresson]

After the revolution perhaps?

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by Heresson
After the revolution perhaps?

More than once you've made sure that its RUSSIA whos to blame, not the Soviet Union.

Have we forgotten these things?

[bobbo008]

Russia...Soviet Union...either way it wasn't exactly the will of the people...

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Tassadar5000


More than once you've made sure that its RUSSIA whos to blame, not the Soviet Union.

Have we forgotten these things?

Russians created SU...
But I never blamed them for what SU did. At least I do not recall it. Give me an example of such behaviour of mine.

[Boris Godunov]

How did this go from France vs Germany to Poland vs Russia?

[planetfall]

Boris,

Simple Americans don't know history. At most they know a few snippets. Don't want to post a long reply, but could help notice gaps:

1. ME110
Used as bomber because of Hitler. Hitler wanted to destroy, destory and had no experience with fighters. The only way the Luftwaffe could get fighters was to pretend they were bombers.

2. Hitler
Not listed as a great leader. Typical American bias. Stalin is listed as great leader and yet he killed more than twice as many as Hitler.

3. German culture
Where are the great religious figures:
Luther, Melanthon, Boehnhoeffer

4. German religion
Yes it used to be important but fell to the wayside with arrogant humanism replacing monotheism, i.e, Homo-monotheism replacing Deus-monotheism. Also shared by civ3 developers: Cermonial burial -> Mysticism -> polytheism -> monotheism -> theology -> evolution.

What should Germany's traits be?

Expansion- no, Lebensraum is not the same as American Manifest Destiny. Hitler only propagated the idea to shift focus from the pain inside Germany to any place else. Not much different than Clinton using war to help himself politically.

Military-- obviously. Very good army in WW1 and WW2 or it would not have taken a group of nations to stop them.

Cultural-- sorry no operas, but this is possible. Luther, a german, started the Reformation. Bach, Mendleson, Stauss are still admired today. Germany has more cathedrals than Egypt has pyramids.

Industrial-- possible, Germans sometimes tend to miss the big picture but even with modern socialism there is still a strong work ethic.

Commercial-- possible. Definitely more than spain or Russia or England in modern times, but less than England at the time of their empire.

Scientific-- possible. Van Braun, Einstein were Germans.

Religious-- possible. Did institute a state religion. Unfortunately the state religion killed the religious value system.

Ok, so not Expansion and yes military.
If had to choose one of the remaining 4 as being most characteristic of the Germans, a case could be made for any of the 4 remaining traits.

I choose not commerical because even though Germany has been an exporter of high quality machinery, they are not competitive in computers/electronics/mass production of goods.

I choose not industrial because even though there is a strong work ethic in many Germans, Germans also take 6 weeks of vacation.

I choose not religious because even though Luther lead the Reformation, modern Germans are making more of a religion of non-religious humanism than any theism or monotheism.

Thus I am left with:
military
scientific.

Again a valid case can be made for any trait except expansion. There is a big difference between a few leaders saying it would be nice to expand and actually expanding. Note Japan is not expansive.

Weird aside, just noticed Rome is not expansive civ even though the great expansive civs were: British, Americans, and Romans.

== PF

[planetfall]

Forget to add, a major reason Germany was defeated in WWII was Hitler's bias vs fighters. He blocked almost all R&D on the me262, a early jet fighter.

B17's were no match, it was only the lack of commitment to first R&D and then production that allowed Ike to carry on with the daily air bombardment. Personally good for me as father was a B17 bombardier, but was bad for German expansion.

== PF

[MiloMilo]

Originally posted by planetfall
Not much different than Clinton using war to help himself politically.

Excuse me? Don't you think Clinton helped himself most by focusing on domestic issues rather than foreign affairs? Have you seen the news lately? Shrub is getting his own little war for christmas, just like the one his daddy had.

As far as your analysis of the German traits, your is a good explanation of why they properly are as they are, and I agree. Personally, I think the traits given to America are more questionable: I think you could make as good or better arguments for religious, commercial, and even scientific as for expansionist.

[planetfall]

Originally posted by MiloMilo


Excuse me? Don't you think Clinton helped himself most by focusing on domestic issues rather than foreign affairs?

Yeah, Monica was a great help.

As far as your analysis of the German traits, your is a good explanation of why they properly are as they are, and I agree.

Interesting, I did not check to see what their traits were. I just started with all six and started subtracting.

Personally, I think the traits given to America are more questionable: I think you could make as good or better arguments for religious, commercial, and even scientific as for expansionist.

Again, expansive civs are: England, Rome, America, Russia, and China.

I think commercial trait would be more accurately applied to US than industrial simply because WWII was won and stayed won by huge commerical production developed. Don't think used by civ3 as commerical trait as commerce is weaker than industrial and developers liked to play as america.

Industrial only makes sense as it was the hard work that build up a "new country" from 1776 to 1900's.

America is not religious, unless you consider Culture Religion or Humanism a religious trait.

Argument could easily be made for scientific trait for america.

Thus,
Expansive- yes
Relgious- no
Industrial- possible
commerical- possible
scientific- possible
military- possible

Would not include military as America's use of military in recent history {1900's} has been in response to outside aggression.

Industrial/commerical/scientific-- pick any one.

Industrial was probably picked as civ3 liked fast american workers and needed a few more industrial traits to balance traits of all civs.

== PF

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by planetfall
Boris,

Simple Americans don't know history. At most they know a few snippets. Don't want to post a long reply, but could help notice gaps:

I don't think, speaking as an American, that Americans are any less qualified to speak of history than Europeans. I could point out a lot of errors in your own post.

Hitler:
Not listed as a great leader. Typical American bias. Stalin is listed as great leader and yet he killed more than twice as many as Hitler.

I don't think the Germans, French, British or any other country would necessarily have listed him, either. It isn't about American bias, it's about Hitler being a very sensitive subject worldwide. I frankly think Germans would be more upset than anyone at having Hitler listed as a great leader for them.

4. German religion
Yes it used to be important but fell to the wayside with arrogant humanism replacing monotheism, i.e, Homo-monotheism replacing Deus-monotheism. Also shared by civ3 developers: Cermonial burial -> Mysticism -> polytheism -> monotheism -> theology -> evolution.

None of this negates Germany's dramatic influence on the world vis-a-vis religion. The Reformation gave rise to Prostetantism, and Marxism gave rise to humanism. Two massively important things.

Expansion- no, Lebensraum is not the same as American Manifest Destiny. Hitler only propagated the idea to shift focus from the pain inside Germany to any place else. Not much different than Clinton using war to help himself politically.

While I object to the Clinton statement, I agree Germany shouldn't be considered expansionist. Having one period that spanned a dozen years where they aggressively expanded doesn't make them an expansionist civilization. Lebensraum is a weak justification, yes.

Military-- obviously. Very good army in WW1 and WW2 or it would not have taken a group of nations to stop them.

Even before that. In the 18th century, Prussia was regarded as having the best-trained army in Europe. The skill of German soldiers was always highly-regarded, which is why German mercenaries often made up as much as 40% of European armies.

Cultural-- sorry no operas, but this is possible. Luther, a german, started the Reformation. Bach, Mendleson, Stauss are still admired today. Germany has more cathedrals than Egypt has pyramids.

Huh? First, there is no plain "cultural" trait in the game, so not sure what this means. But there are TONS of German opera. Mozart and Wagner alone account for a great deal of the most-loved operas in the world. It is the most prolific opera culture after Italy. And as my list earlier showed, there are probably more German musical giants than in any other culture.

Industrial-- possible, Germans sometimes tend to miss the big picture but even with modern socialism there is still a strong work ethic.

Well, we could quibble about what the Industrial trait really means, but Germany has always been in the forefront of industrial nations since unification. As I mentioned, by the end of the 19th century it was outstripping all other countries in many areas of industrial production and had the world's best railroad network. Today is among the industrial giants of the world. This trait fits them well.

Commercial-- possible. Definitely more than spain or Russia or England in modern times, but less than England at the time of their empire.

While Germany is the third largest economy today, I agree that commericalism isn't a trait I would give to the Germans. They didn't build a worldwide trading empire like the English or Dutch did. But why should the French have commercial? Doesn't make sense to me.

Scientific-- possible. Van Braun, Einstein were Germans.

Here I think you're severely understating German scientific achievement. Since the turn of the century, Germans have been considered to be at the forefront of scientific research. The list of great German scientists is prolific. I would say they deserve the scientific trait as much as any other.

Religious-- possible. Did institute a state religion. Unfortunately the state religion killed the religious value system.

The Reformation gives the Germans a distinct impact on religion, but I don't think the trait applies. I don't see Germany has having had a particularly religious culture as opposed to their European contemporaries.

I choose not commerical because even though Germany has been an exporter of high quality machinery, they are not competitive in computers/electronics/mass production of goods.

Apparently you haven't heard of Siemens. Germany has several top-notch technology firms. You're also forgeting the field of banking. Deutschbanke alone is an example of their huge influence in commercial banking.

I choose not industrial because even though there is a strong work ethic in many Germans, Germans also take 6 weeks of vacation.

I don't think this has any bearing on the Industrious trait. German engineering is the most highly-regarded in the world, and their work ethic is equally as admired. The culture revolves around such a work ethic.

Overall, I think the Germans should be Industrious and Scientific. I think the militaristic trait is based more on stereotype than anything else. While Germany had a great army, yes, I don't think the entire history of the Germans bears out a particularly militant culture.

[planetfall]

Got to run, but

1. Ok, military is stereotype in spite of Husseins, WW1 and WW2.

2. Industrious and scientific seem best traits for Germany.

3. There is no FrankBank, why is France commerical? It makes more sense for France to be Military and Religious. France brought the crusades and Inquisition. Definitely religious about the use of the french language. Commerical, not if Infrogrames is a prime example.

Later.

== PF

[Boris Godunov]

I would give the French Scientific and Religious.

What they need is an Artistic trait that enhances a civ's culture rating and makes cultural improvements cheaper to build. There are several civs I would qualify as Artistic over the other traits.

[planetfall]

Boris,

I like that for France. Thus France = Babylon traits. We already have Carths with CI, so switching France to SR should not effect game balance.

== PF

[MiloMilo]

Originally posted by planetfall

America is not religious, unless you consider Culture Religion or Humanism a religious trait.

I don't mean to harp, but which America are you talking about? We're a nation of puritans. The (purportedly) elitist, (genrally) left-wing, humanists who (also generally) live on the coasts are very much in the minority--though you might not know it if you tend to read the NYTimes.

Plus, I think the way civ3 meshes the religious with the cultural suggests it might be a good trait for America, given our penchant for cultural imperialism. Of course, as you mentioned, scientific could work well also, in both regards.

I'm not sure why they used expansionist. They seized on the manifest destiny bit, but that was fairly limited in the grand scope of things. (Not that America's historical scope is so grand--to be perfectly honest America probably shouldn't be in the game. Americans are really nothing but glorified ex-Brits.) Scientific (how many accredited colleges are there here?), industrious, and religious all seem more appropriate. Any combination of those three would work for me.

[planetfall]

Originally posted by MiloMilo


I don't mean to harp, but which America are you talking about? We're a nation of puritans.

You and who else kemo sabe? Not any of the Americans I know.

The (purportedly) elitist, (genrally) left-wing, humanists who (also generally) live on the coasts are very much in the minority--though you might not know it if you tend to read the NYTimes.

Are you sure? Nation was established by Deitists who integrated belief in God with nationalism. National media always are proponents of Humanist religion. Recently the phrase 'in God' was challenged and removal was accepted without effective contest.

Webster defines religion as:

"a belief in a divine or superhuman power or powers to be obeyed and worshiped as creator(s) and ruler(s) of the universe."

Not only does this definition fail to be applied as a label to the national media most Americans simply do not live lives that reflect a belief in an outside themselves power to be obeyed. Even most 'religious' or 'protestant' self labelers have mini strokes at the concept of OBEYing. When was the last time you saw a "religious American" trying to live in harmony with the Creator? Forget Sundays/Saturdays. What about the Monday to Friday grind. No not convinced current America is religious.

Plus, I think the way civ3 meshes the religious with the cultural suggests it might be a good trait for America, given our penchant for cultural imperialism. Of course, as you mentioned, scientific could work well also, in both regards.

If you call American Religion the religion of spreading materialism and polytheistic-humanistic values everywhere, then I would agree you could call America religious. But this is a whole different meaning to the word religious.

Americans are really nothing but glorified ex-Brits.)

No sale. Most common label is "anglo-saxon",i.e., French-English. Brits have never melted other cultures and national peoples into one culture.

Scientific (how many accredited colleges are there here?), industrious, and religious all seem more appropriate. Any combination of those three would work for me.

Use the editor and you can be all 3. Might help that emperor game.

== PF

[Kingof the Apes]

Originally posted by MiloMilo
(Not that America's historical scope is so grand--to be perfectly honest America probably shouldn't be in the game. Americans are really nothing but glorified ex-Brits.)

Just because we are glorified ex-Brits we should be in the game. The Revolution kicked off the Age of Political Revolution.

[Cyclotron]

Planetfall, I disagree with almost all of your reasons that America is not religious. I think the people are very much a religious people... but that's not the point. "Religious" seems to be used by Civ3 to mean something like "thocratic," and America's separation of church and state is about the furthest you get from a theocracy without banning religion altogether. So, people yes, nation no. We may be religious, but most of us have secular values that are distinctly different from the values of most so-called "religious cultures."

Not much different than Clinton using war to help himself politically.

Don't you mean Bush?

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
How did this go from France vs Germany to Poland vs Russia?

It got heresserbified.

[bobbo008]

"possible, Germans sometimes tend to miss the big picture but even with modern socialism there is still a strong work ethic."

Sorry, a point I must address. How could the Ossies have thought they'd have an economic miracle like West Germany had after WWII? That miracle was based on hardwork and determination. The East gets amazing amounts of money (over $100 billion so far), the West has a "solidarity tax" of 5.5% that goes to the East, and some still wine about it (yes, I know West Germany got money from the U.S., but come on).

"Van Braun"

VON Braun, he wasn't freaky deaky dutch.

"I choose not commerical because even though Germany has been an exporter of high quality machinery, they are not competitive in computers/electronics/mass production of goods."

Germany is the 2nd largest exporter in the world, and has the highest trade balance in the world, even surpassing Japan. They also have the 2nd highest number of robots working in factories, misc. fact, I know, but I thought I'd state it. Also 3rd largest producer of cars. I'm basically challenging the whole statement.

"I choose not industrial because even though there is a strong work ethic in many Germans, Germans also take 6 weeks of vacation."

And why not? With unemployment as it is... (I would definitely say they are industrious)

"He blocked almost all R&D on the me262, a early jet fighter."

One could argue they lacked sufficient resources and production methods to build them, but one could also argue against that.

"Industrial only makes sense as it was the hard work that build up a "new country" from 1776 to 1900's."

That sounds like almost every industrialized (past-tense) country in the world

"I don't think, speaking as an American, that Americans are any less qualified to speak of history than Europeans. I could point out a lot of errors in your own post."

As an American, I say, for f*ck's sake these people are stupid. I live in Wisconsin and over 1/3 of the kids in my class could not find any of the following states: Minnesota, Michigan, Iowa, and Illonois, all of the states that we border.

"I don't think the Germans, French, British or any other country would necessarily have listed him, either. It isn't about American bias, it's about Hitler being a very sensitive subject worldwide. I frankly think Germans would be more upset than anyone at having Hitler listed as a great leader for them."

Oddly enough, many Russian and ex-Soviet citizens wouldn't mind Stalin as a Great Leader. Where I can see Hitler as not being a GL, I question Stalin, as well.

"I would say they deserve the scientific trait as much as any other."

I feel Germany should have it more than another other nation, except maybe ancient China. Keep in mind it was the German teams brought over after WWII that build our space program. Some people have heard of a certain person named Einstein. And, if we include mathematics, Calculus was discovered independantly at nearly the exact same time as Isaac Newton (god what was the German guys name again?).

"Apparently you haven't heard of Siemens. Germany has several top-notch technology firms. You're also forgeting the field of banking. Deutschbanke alone is an example of their huge influence in commercial banking."

You can't even touch German banking if you include Luxembourg, Switzerland and Austria.

"Americans are really nothing but glorified ex-Brits"

Not many Brits here, actually. Over 50 million people claim German and Irish nationality each. There are also each 30 million of africans and hispanics. Starting to narrow down? However, instead of America, how about we combine it with Canada and Australia to make a super defunct-british colony nation?

"left-wing"

Conservatives in Europe are more liberal than liberals in the U.S.

"anglo-saxon",i.e., French-English"

Anglo-saxon means English. Technically, those are two German tribes. The Angles even gave England its name (Angl-land).

"Age of Political Revolution."

No, the French Revolution did. Of course, they made Napolean the Emperor soon after... Then they made him Emperor again... then they did the same with his nephew Louis-Napolean III... Then they tried to make Charles de Gaulle a near-dictator... and now they're on their, what, their FIFTH French Republic?

[Big Fish]

Also in WWI you France declaring war on Germany was not because they thougt that Germany was a threat like in WWII. France declared war because they where acting on a MMP with god knows what country, after whats his face was assasinated all hell broke loose and I forgot who was allied with who. And in both occasions France just beat Germany to the signings.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by bobbo008
The East gets amazing amounts of money (over $100 billion so far), ...

You forgot to say "per year".

...the West has a "solidarity tax" of 5.5% that goes to the East, and some still wine about it (yes, I know West Germany got money from the U.S., but come on).

The "solidarity tax" is paid by the Eastern workers as well.

[bobbo008]

"And in both occasions France just beat Germany to the signings."

Because God knows the U.S., Britain and Russia would go either way.

"The "solidarity tax" is paid by the Eastern workers as well."

They live in the East...and they must give money that goes...to the East...

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by bobbo008
And, if we include mathematics, Calculus was discovered independantly at nearly the exact same time as Isaac Newton (god what was the German guys name again?).

Leibniz. He's on my list.

Actually, there is a lot of debate over who was actually first, and there is some evidence that Newton stole from Leibniz in order to get the credit, and that it is Leibniz who should be remembered as the true father of calculus. So some say...

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Big Fish
Also in WWI you France declaring war on Germany was not because they thougt that Germany was a threat like in WWII. France declared war because they where acting on a MMP with god knows what country, after whats his face was assasinated all hell broke loose and I forgot who was allied with who. And in both occasions France just beat Germany to the signings.

France didn't go to war just because they happened to have an alliance with Russia. They could have disregarded it they had wanted--Italy did theirs with Germany and Austria-Hungary.

France wanted the war, and except for the French Socialists greeted it with cheer. They had been very bitter about the humiliation of the Franco-Prussian war and were itching for payback. They allied with Russia and stuck their noses into the Balkans for this reason in the first place. They felt with England and Russia's aid, they would take down Germany in a few months. Well, they didn't expect Germany to turn around and attack them as fast they did. Their mistake.

I for one don't think Germany would have declared war on France first. While the Kaiser was under a lot of pressure from the war hawks, Germany quite forcefully tried to secure an assurance of neutrality from France prior to their declaring war on Russia in defense of Austria. France wouldn't budge, though.

[bobbo008]

(in response to above posts)

Leibniz, thank you.

I agree, war with France was not exactly a high priority at the time. The war roughly 40 years ago got them all that they really had set out to get.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by bobbo008
(in response to above posts)

Leibniz, thank you.

I agree, war with France was not exactly a high priority at the time. The war roughly 40 years ago got them all that they really had set out to get.

Well, I wouldn't say that either. Germany had provoked the Entente Cordiale by being unreasonably aggressive over Morocco toward France. Germany was looking for it's "place in the sun," so to speak in terms of overseas colonies. They certainly weren't innocent of exacerbating tensions in Europe. France was all too ready to up the ante, however, by sticking its nose into the Balkans.

England was, in fact, considering allying with Germany at the turn of the century, until the Kaiser began to aggressively increase the size of the German navy. Britain, being the queen of the seas, could only take this as a threat to her own naval power, and she consequently drifted back towards France, which was trying eagerly to isolate Germany politically.

It was all Russia's fault, anyway.