Turn update

[Beör]

The sequence of events during turn update eludes me. I think that some kind of more or less detailed flowchart could be helpful.

Does anybody know if this has been dicussed in aprevious thread?

If not, should we try to compile something of this sort in this thread?

[Riv/\ /\En]

Okay, I don't have access to SMACX right now to verify, but I believe the sequence goes something like this-
START
-If this is MP, you get the combat Report
-If this is MP, any diplomacy offers pop up
-You are notified of any complete productions at your bases.
-The game cycles through all of your units. The pattern seems to be left to right, top to bottom.
-At any time during all this, the AI factions may call you.
-If you discover a tech that turn, it usually pops up when you click on a base, but not always, so not sure about that
-I think that's it. You click end turn
-Planet and the AI take their turn. You see any action that is near you. The AI units cycle through in the same manner as yours do.
-Repeat cycle.

Okay, that's what I've got. Now, before you all chew my head off keep in mind that I'm just trying to think of this off the top of my head.

------------------
I got my troubles
An' my troubles they got me
Ain't easy bein' an object
In a game called ZZT
-The Jazz Man

[Simpson II]

Answers to your questions posted in the other thread;

1. Will I loose the nuts in the last row even if the base would have grown, had the CP not been built? The sequence suggested by Simpson II indicates that this is the case.

Yes, I checked that one.

2. I think that during the turn update checking of drone riots are done after any production. Is this correct?

Yes. I often time Rec. Commons to be built the same turn that a base grows.

3. What happens to the nut tanks when a population limit stops the growth of base? I seem to recall from experience that half the nuts are eliminated.

Really? I thought that the tank just stayed full until the restriction was lifted. Could easily be wrong.

I, too, would be quite interested if anyone really knows the full mechanics of the thing. They might e-mail a report to the people who designed the AI!

[RedFred]

Some thoughts on the mechanics of the turn. While I agree with Simpson II that Rec Commons will be build prior to the drone riot calculation, I am not so sure that other improvements - even psych enhancing ones like treefarms - operate the same way. Can anyone confirm this?

The cost calculation is also slightly screwy. You can have a positive income and still have a base improvement sold off on you as if you ended the turn with a deficit. The reason is that the program will evaluate city by city if you have an energy deficit. A good reason not to spend all your energy or at least to make sure that the first few cities you found run a nice surplus.

[Beör]

Riv/\/\En

I was not clear: Actually thinking more in line with the posts from Simpson and RedFred: What happens after you hit 'End turn', and before you are presented with an active unit.

I agree with Simpson that production will be finished prior to the evaluation of drone riots. But RedFred might have a point: maybe the calculation of psych benefits takes place prior to production, so that the bonus from a newly produced facility isn't effective untill the next turn.

Logically this would also apply to research bonus (e.g. network nodes) and energy credit bonus (e.g. energy banks) - but who ever claimed that SMAC was logical?

And what about Recycling tanks - do you get the 1n-1m-1e the turn they are built or the following turn? My guess is the latter.

So the flow would be something like the following (version 0.01) (this could of course be very wrong, this is tentative stuff!):

1 First check status (golden ages, riots, help me out with the details here)

2.1 Calculate the production from all citizens in base (taking into acount the effect of SE, terraforming etc).

2.1.1 Add 1-1-1 if recycling tanks exist.

2.1.2 Add production from orbital facilities.

2.1.3 Add energy from trade

2.2 Split the energy between credit, psych and research

2.3 Apply bonus from production enhancing facilities (nodes, banks, tree farms etc)

2.4 Add production from specialists

2.5 Subtract support costs for supported units

2.6 Subtract maintenance costs for existing facilities

2.7 Add/subtract loan payments

2.8 If you now have a negative cash balance, sell a random facility.

2.9 If the resulting mins are negative, disband a random unit supported by the base, skip the next step

3.1 Add produced mins to the production box. If box is full, finish production of item.

3.1.1 If the item produced is a colony pod, decrease base size by 1, nutrients stay in the nut tanks regardlessly.

4.1 If nut tanks are full, increase base size by one, excess nuts are lost.

4.2 Add produced nuts to the nut tanks.

4.2.1 If produced nuts are negative (hunger) and base size has increased this turn, do nothing.

4.2.2 If produced nuts are negative (hunger), base size has not increased this turn, and the subtraction of the nut deficit would take the base into the negative: decrease population, withdrawing specialist before citizen. Nut tanks are left full

5 Evaluate drone riots:
1st turn: Non-vital base activity suspended (what does that mean?)
2nd turn: Random facility destroyed
3rd turn: ?

6.1 Add produced research to the research production tank. If tank is full, finish research, carry over excess research credits.

6.1.1 If playing directed research, prompt player to select the next research goal from a limited list (how is this list produced?)

6.1.2 If playing blind research, from time to time (how often?) prompt player for overall research goals.

It seems like this sequence is performed for each base one at a time, in ascending order of foundation year. As RedFred states this could mean the selling of a base facility in one of the earlier evaluated bases, even if you are running an overall positive income. (As I recall it this was even true as far back as Civ).

What about pop boom?

Special projects:

Some SPs do not have any influence during the turn update (Weather Paradigm, Empath Guild, Citizens Defense Force, Neural Amplifier, terraforming part of Xenoempathy Dome, movement part of Maritime Control Center, Planetary Datalinks, Hunter Seeker Algorithm, combat part of Pholus Mutagen, Dream Twister, Universal Translator, Nano Factory, vote part of Clinical Immortality, drop pod part of Space Elevator, ascent part of Voice of PLanet).
Conceivably the WP could decrease the time taken to finish an ongoing terraforming task, however, I believe that the completion of terraforming is checked during the player turn (making instant roads possible), not during the turn update. This is why I placed WP here. Same goes for the terraforming part of XD

If you produce an SP that works in this base only (Merchant Exchange, Supercollider, FM part of Longevity Vaccine, Theory of Everything, research-commerce part of Network Backbone, Economy part of SE, probe team part of Telepathic Matrix) I think it works just like a base facility: e.g. the added energy from ME will not take effect until next turn.

But what happens if you produce a special project that has influence in all of your bases? SPs affecting drone control (Human Genome Project, Virtual World, Planetary Transit System?, non-FM part of LV?) seems to work immediately in all bases. Actually I am not quite sure about VW: numbers of drones in a city with Network node is reduced by 2, but is psych increased by 50% ? What happens if the network node is produced this turn? I never build PTS - so what do you say to this one?

And what about Command Nexus - if you finish CN this turn, will units produced this turn at another base get a morale upgrade? Same thing for the lifecycle part of XD, PM or VOP, for the naval yard part of MCC, and for Cyborg Factory.

Ascetic Virtues? Pop limit part, Police part? Anyone? (This could really help os pinpoint the correct flow chart sequence)

Ecology part of PM?

Research-Network node part of NB?

SocEng part of NB?

Living Refinery?

Pop-boom part of Cloning Vats?

SocEng part of CV?

Maintenance part of Selfaware Colony?

Police part of SC?

Talent part of CI?

Mineral part of SE?

Aerospace Complex part of SE?

Singularity Inductor?

Bulk Matter Transmitter?

Drone part of TM?

I realise that most of these effects of SPs - particularly the later ones - will probably not be investigated as the effect on gameplay is negligable at this point. However, I sincerely doubt that the mechanism for the effects of SPs is very complicated. If we could place it propperly in the flow chart sequence, it should be possible to predict the behaviour of the game.

[Simpson II]

Beör, you wrote;

"6.1 Add produced research to the research production tank. If tank is full, finish research, carry over excess research credits."

which is not quite how it happens. Excess research points are not carried over. So e.g. you have a base producing 15000 RP/turn and the tech you are researching costs 5000, you loose 10000 RP (or more, if it isn't the first base in the list.)

Possibly the idea was to put a limit on the 'super-base' strategy, though it seems a pity.

[RedFred]

Yes, Simpson II is right. Beor's statement is correct about carryover provided that no one city is over a tech a turn. Then just the high tech cities' research would be truncated at one tech. All the other cities' research would carry over in the normal way.

Yeeesh! Not sure if I am clarifying or adding confusion.

In any case, Beor has come up with several interesting questions regarding the game mechanics. Once we can agree on the turn order I will definately add the results of this discussion to my notes. Important info to know.

[Beör]

I now realise that the draft of the turn update I posted yesterday is anything but correct.
Here is a new suggestion. I have renumbered the chart to make it more logical

Please comment! The growth phase particularly seems a bit unlogical. As written here a base with full nut tanks will increase in size even if they have negative nut production.

0 Global
- pair bases with the bases of other factions for determination of trade benefits
- determine global Social Factors (Faction Characteristics, SocEng choices, Special Projects (Ascetic Virtues: +1 Police, Living Refinery: +2 Support)
- add/subtract outstanding loans payment to global energy reserves
***
I don't have a clue as to whether the loans are payed at this time.
It could make a difference if you are running very low on cash, and the first couple of cities are running a deficit. As a deficit is checked for every city (step 5.2) this could force (if you have to pay another faction) or prevent (if another faction has to pay you) the sale of a facility (see prevoius post by RedFred).
***

For each base in ascending order of foundation year

1 Basespecific modification of Social factors
- Was this base in Golden Ages last turn (+2 growth, +1 econ)
- Base facilities (Childrens Creche: +2 growth, +2 efficiency)
- Determine size of nut tanks (base size, social factors), production tanks (item under production, social factors) and 'research tanks' (number of researched techs, social factors)
- Determine which SPs influence the base at during step 2 through 7.2

2 Basespecific production

2.1 Calculate the production from each square being worked (taking into account, in order: basic terrain, terraforming, facilities (tree farm +1 nut forrest square, hybrid forest +1 nut +1 energy forrest square), Merchant Exchange, Economy >= +2, nme-restrictions, resource bonus)

2.2
- add 1e if headquarters
- add 1n-1m-1e if Recycling Tank and/or Pressure Dome.
- add production from orbital facilities (Nessus Mining Station, Orbital Power Transmitter, Sky Hydroponics Lab).
- add energy from trade
- subtract energy lost to inefficiency

2.3 Split the energy between Econ, Psych and Labs

2.4 Apply bonus from production enhancing facilities (Energy Bank: +50% Econ; Fusion Lab: +50% Econ, +50% Labs; Genejack Factory: +50% mins; Hologram Theatre: +50% Psych; Hybrid Forest: +50% Psych, + 50% Econ; Nanohospital: +25% Psych, +50% Labs; Nanoreplicator: +50% mins; Network Node: +50% Labs; Punishment Sphere: -50% Labs; Quantum Converter: +50% mins; Quantum Lab: +50% Econ, +50% Labs; Research Hospital: +25% Psych, +50% Labs; Robotic Assembly Plant: + 50% mins; Tree Farm: +50% Psych, +50% Econ)

2.5
- add Econ, Psych, Labs production from specialists
- add 2 labs if BioLab
- subtract 2 nuts for each citizen
- subtract mineral costs for existing units supported by this base
- subtract maintenance costs for existing facilities at this base (halved if Self-Aware Colony)

2.6 Apply bonus from Special Projects
- add 2 mins if Bulk Matter Transmitter
- add x labs if Network Backbone
- 2*Econ if Space Elevator at this base
- 2*Labs if Supercollider at this base
- 2*Labs if Theory of Everything at this base
***
Actually I am not certain if these are placed correctly
***

2.7 If base is rioting set mins to 0 and labs to 0
***
what happens if mins are negative
***

2.8 This gives the basespecific result of the five items of production: nuts, mins, Econ, Psych, Labs

Next Base

For each base in ascending order of production year

3 Production

3.1 If the resulting mins are negative, disband a random unit supported by the base, goto 4

3.2 If Stockpiling Energy, add 0.5*mins to energy reserves goto 4

3.3 Add produced mins to the production box (2*mins if Space Elevator and producing orbital facility).

3.4.1 If box is full, produce item. Upto 10 excess mins are retained. Excess mins above 10 are
lost

3.4.2 If the item produced is a colony pod, decrease base size by 1, resize nut tanks, nutrients up to nut tank size are retained.

4 Growth

4.1 If +6 Growth in this base and nuts>=+2 then increase base size by one, retain nuts, goto 5

4.2 If nut tanks are full, increase base size by one, excess nuts are lost.

4.3 Add produced nuts to the nut tanks.

4.3.1 If produced nuts are negative (hunger) and base size has increased this turn, do nothing.

4.3.2 If produced nuts are negative (hunger), base size has not increased this turn, and the subtraction of the nut deficit would take the base into the negative: decrease population, withdrawing specialist before citizen. Nut tanks are left full

5 Energy reserves

5.1 Add produced Econ to global energy reserves

5.2 If you have a negative global cash balance at this point, sell a random facility from this base

6 Research

6.1 Add produced Labs to the research production tank.

6.2 If tank is full, finish research, excess Labs are lost. Select new research goal

7 Keep them happy

7.1 Convert produced Psych to talents: 2 Psych yields one talent

7.2 If Punishment Sphere in this base, drones=0, talents=0

Next base

***
Looping through all bases prior to checking for drone riots allows any drone reduction to take effect the same turn the SP is produced. SPs that increase energy production/Psych, will not have effect this turn, since the calculation of Psych for each base is finished at this point.
***

For each base in ascending order of construction year

8 Drone riots

8.1 Adjust numbers of drones/talents due to Special Projects which are present at this time

8.2 If number of drones exceed number of talents base is rioting

8.2.1 First turn of rioting: mins and labs wil be 0 for next turn (step 2.7)

8.2.2 Second consecutive turn of rioting: 8.2.1 + random facility is destroyed

8.2.3 At least third consecutive turn of rioting: 8.2.2 + base might defect

Next Base

***
Actually the steps up to and including step 2.8 are performed in the active phase as they are subject to immediate changes during the active game phase (from moving workers around, creating specialists, changing SocEng, terraforming etc). The numbers from step 2.8 can be acquired from the Resource Collection Readout and the Energy Allocation Readout.
***


PLEASE COMMENT!
[This message has been edited by Beör (edited August 17, 2000).]

[big_canuk]

From experience, and from other posts that I have read, I think that energy and labs from specialists and facilities(2.5) happen before multiplicative effects in 2.4.

Wow, this would be helpful if we could ever figure it out. In practice, you might only have to evaluate small parts of the flow chart, and only in critical situations. Neat!

[big_canuk]

From experience, and from other posts that I have read, I think that energy and labs from specialists and facilities(2.5) happen before multiplicative effects in 2.4.

Wow, this would be helpful if we could ever figure it out. In practice, you might only have to evaluate small parts of the flow chart, and only in critical situations. Neat!

[Beör]

quote: Originally posted by big_canuk on 08-17-2000 02:17 PM From experience, and from other posts that I have read, I think that energy and labs from specialists and facilities(2.5) happen before multiplicative effects in 2.4.

Big_c

Are you sure? I always thought it was the other way around. I should test it of course - and would if I didn't have an unfortunate hardware failure at my end (yikes - no SMAC for almost a week )

Anyway, as I stated in the last few lines of my post, it might not even be that important, since steps 2 through 2.8 are performed during the active unit phase. This means that you actually don't have to calculate them but can get the figures from the readouts. That is, unless you want to check if the calculations are correct.

Of course, from a base management point of view, it might be very important exactly how much bang you you get for your proverbial buck when creating a citizen. However, I suspect that most players do like I do: Compare the readouts before and after the creation of a specialist. This is probably the reason that I never wondered much whether specialists are subject to the multiplicative effects in question. (To be completely honest: For a long while I hardly used specialist, except when in a pinch dronewise )
[This message has been edited by Beör (edited August 17, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Beör (edited August 17, 2000).]

[Simpson II]

"6.2 If tank is full, finish research, excess Labs are lost. Select new research goal"

The tech is added when the box overflows, not when it is full. I've just had an annoying '0 turns to complete tech' message in my labs screen!

And I agree that labs from specialists goes through nodes, SPs etc., otherwise certain of my games would have gone very much worse for me. Haven't bothered to check, though. Certainly it worked this way in CivII.

[DilithiumDad]

I think that production is later. For example, if a base is growing and will go into drone riots, I can prevent it by rushing a Rec Commons so that it reads "0 turns". But if it would build normally, then the base goes into drone riots. So it seems that there is double-check of builds: once before the current turn minerals are added and once afterward. Drone riots are checked in between. (This gets stranger and stranger!)

------------------
Creator of the Ultimate Builder Map, based on the Huge Map of Planet

[RedFred]

So, there is a difference between zero and one turn away from completion? I've always wondered about that.

Beor's comments about specialists mirror my own experience. In Civ you had instantaneous feedback on the effect of a science enhancing specialist because the city's science production was right inside the city screen. IMHO it is a design flaw that you have to go to a separate screen to figure out the research and financial impact of your decisions.

I also used to underbuild energy banks for the same reason.

[RedFred]

It is also my belief that there is some special 'magic' with rec commons that make it not a good example. I know that you can rush build them even if your city is in unrest. That doesn't work with anything else. Also I believe that they will be completed and become functional before the unrest calc if you are 1 or 0 turns from completion.

I guess that this comment is somewhat at odds with Dilithium Dad's. But I regularly calculate the minimum amount of energy to rush build to get to "one turn" away on rec commons so I am fairly confident about this.

[Beör]

DilDad

Are you sure about that?

If I were a programmer doublechecking production would be very cumbersome.

I am quite certain that if you partially hurry a unit so that it will be finished next turn, it will indeed be produced, thereby potentially increasing police and preventing riots.

I am still experiencing some hardware problems, but as soon as that is fixed, I will do some exploration into this and the multiplication of specialists thing.

[Simpson II]

DilithiumDad, which version of Smac do you have?

I just tested part-hurrying to fix a drone problem with rec. commons, holo theatre, research hospital, paradise garden, punishment sphere and The Telepathic Matrix. In all cases the facility was built, and the base did not revolt.

[big_canuk]

On the question of building to 1 or 0 turns to completion, they are the same (whatever it is gets produced, and up to 10 mins get carried forward to the next build item). This is if there are no drone riots at the base in question.

Rec Commons, or Hol theaters maybe, and probably other drone reducing facilities are a special case, because they can be hurried even during drone riots. During drone riots it is important that you hurry to zero turns, cause no minerals will be added to your production the following turn.

Again, this is from experience, and not testing, so anyone with other info, please chime in.

[Beör]

If I understand SimpsonII correctly, I agree with him/her

It is possible to partial hurry a facility or unit in order to prevent the beginning of riots. The base adds the necessary mins (since it is not yet in rioting status: step 3 occurs prior to step 8) and finishes building the item in the production box. If this alters talent/drone balance sufficiently, riots will not begin (step 8).

If, however, the base is already rioting (the turn update prior to the second turn of rioting) no mins will be added (step 2.7), and as Big_Canuk stated it is necessary to hurry all necessary mins.

I don't think that there are special cases, be it rec commoms, holo theatres or otherwise. If you spend the necessary energy to hurry any facility, it will be produced, regardless of riots.

[Didymus]

I have two comments to make on this thread.

As far as unit morale goes, I did some experimenting (with SE choices), and my recollection was that the morale modifiers at the time the unit BEGAN production were what mattered. Presumably, the same would hold for base facilities which modify morale.

As far as rushing during drone riots, I was under the impression that Facilities could be rushed, but units could not. So that, for example, you could rush tree farms for the extra nutrients and then convert some citizens to Doctors/Empaths/Transcendi without losing pop to starvation. (This would be especially important in FM, since pacifism drones occur after facilities -- i.e., no amount of base facilities will eliminate pacifism drones, you need talents to counterbalance them.)