Unofficial- What should be done with Aggie?

[zeit]

AS you know, there was a crisis regarding the illegal MPP's being signed last turnchat and the chat not stopped despite Rome declaring war on us. the president, Aggie was the one running the chat, what do you think is to be done with his violation of the orders?

Please read before voting: http://www.apolyton.com/forums/showt...0&pagenumber=1

The option are:

1)Aggie is to resign from the Demogame.

2)Aggie is to be punished in another way- to be decided by the senate.

3)Aggie's apology is sufficent- no futher punishment is required.

Please note: this poll is unofficial- and is not obligatory, if anyone wants to, he can propose a bill regarding this issue, and demand Aggie to be punished. This is merely a "street poll" to check where the winds blows...

[Aggie]

Like I said elsewhere. I apologize for the action, it was done with the interest of the Demogame in mind and was not done with ill intentions. However, it was wrong and I ask your forgiveness. I also offer to resign if that is what the people want.
Aggie

[Panag]

hi ,

we should wait a bit first , then we should see at all the options and vote , ......

have a nice day

[Hot Mustard]

I am embarrassed that we feel the need to ask this. Aggie has served Apolytonia nobly as SMC and now as President. Yes, the situation could have been handled better. We have recognized that and Aggie has apoligized (I don't even really believe such a formal apology should be necessary.).

Game on!

[Meshelic]

We have a monument standing at the top of this forum, in Aggie's name! Having him REsIGN from the demo game would be totally, totally bad bad bad.

I accept his apology, and I think all of us should do the same.

The greatest hero in the history of our nation need not have his career end in shame!

Meshelic

[GhengisFarb™]

Off with his head.

Can we do that? Can we actually cut off somebody's head?

[E_T]

I think that the first option was supposed to be for him to resign his office, not from the game

E_T

[E_T]

This is copied from the other thread, just so that it's available for quick reading in this one.

Originally posted by Aggie
Sorry I took so long to respond, but I was gone for a day. Now some setting the record straight. I had read the bill and did realize that the Mpp's were not approved. However, considering the declining numbers and interest in the demogame I made a decision to proceed with the necessary MPP, since it was obvious they were needed and would be approved. The only other alternative was to call the chat after less than turn played. This was unacceptable. So I decided to enter the MPP's that were mentioned. At the time I assumed everyone knew the nations mentioned on the MPP bill and these were not them. I apologize to all in the chat who I did not mention it too, ET and Togas particularly. I was wrong in this and should have mentioned it to all. Basically I did not feel the game should be stopped for something whose resolution was common sense and believed all in the chat were of the same mind. So I took the action I did and feel that this is much adou about nothing. For a matter of fact I feel there was no reason to stop the game as early as we did and would have preferred that we completed the 5 turns. However, I do realize many might oppose that decision and aknowledge that it is "technically" illegal what I did. However, though this action did no harm to our nation, I do offer to resign if this action is so horrible(I all fairness the stupidity of assuming we all knew the mpp weren't authorized is my great crime). If the people want me to resign I will, if not we will have a chat on the 18th.
Aggie

I beleave that Aggie should not resign, but that we give him some form of punishment, because he did violate the CoL and the trust of the Senate and his fellow ministers.

His own admission in chat tonight was that he didn't know that both Togas & I hadn't fully read the bill. Also, he had expressed his dismay at the loss of interest in the game and was hopeful that this would help stimulate participation in the game, so didn't let Togas or myself know that we were entering Illegal territory.

His heart is in the right place, but his methods are curcumspect.

Should he Resign for this, no. Should this become a case for the Courts, no. Should he be punished for this, and how, is up to the Senate to decide as it was partly your trust that he had violated. But he had done it in your interest, too.

But remember, too. What is done here, will have a long term effect on this Demo Game. If no action is brought about, then what will happen with the next incident, sometime in the future, with someone else? If punishment is required, how do we go about doing it and make it fair, equitable and such that it has an impression on any perpatrator. And without making it to where the person leaves, either.

These are the questions that you should ask yourselves while debating this issue and expressing your opinions.

E_T

[Aro]

No punishment. This don't make any sense, IMHO.

[MrWhereItsAt]

I refuse to vote in this poll where two of the options are utterly disgraceful and the third should be rather blindly obvious.

Apology accepted: let's get on with it.

[Kloreep]

I was leaning toward a court case (which you haven't made an option, BTW), but MWIA's argument in another thread convinced me we should simply accept aggie's apology and move on. Yes, he was a little overzealous, but he didn't intend harm, and precedent HAS been set for quick in-chat decisions, if not on this scale of illegality.

Forgive, move on.

[Hot_Enamel]

Bureaucracy gone mad !!

I vote he be made president again. We need a strong leader who can make tough decisions when needed.
Stuff the rules and constitution…Lets play the game !!

[GhengisFarb™]

I think what's done is done and there is no reason to kick him out of hte game.

[Aro]

Originally posted by Hot_Enamel
Bureaucracy gone mad !!

True.

[Togas]

As one of the drafters of the New Con I feel horrible that that we included this into the document. Frankly, I was (and still am) thinking of just offering an amendement to take a few of the "checks" out of the document to keep this sort of mistake from happening in the future.

The decision was made with the support of those in attendance. We are all at fault. It was a wise decision and one that I'm sure he'd make again if he was put to the test.

All controversy aside, I'm sure this poll will reflect that the people accept the apology of the President and wish for the game to move on.

--Togas

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by Hot_Enamel
Bureaucracy gone mad !!

I vote he be made president again. We need a strong leader who can make tough decisions when needed.
Stuff the rules and constitution…Lets play the game !!

um...

I'm going to side with DAVOUT on this one rather than Hot_Enamel. This is a democracy game, meaning that the input of the populace is fundamentally important to the "playing of the game". The constitution exists to ensure that the cabinet doesn't get carried away with itself and forget to consult the broader populace in the democracy game.

While I agree that the limitation on the cabinet having the power to sign MPPs and military alliances has been frustrating as the Foreign Affairs Minister, I also understand why it's there - to ensure that I (or the President in my place) doesn't just play the game by themselves w/o consulting the broader populace on important issues.

As for Aggie, the Senate could vote here to ask Aggie to resign and the Senate can always pass a resolution officially censuring Aggie's action (a legal slap on the wrist), but the Senate does not have the power to pass out actual punishments (that power is reserved for the Court).

I already stated that I think this should NOT be taken to the Court for the purpose of punishing Aggie, so understandably I'm against the Senate illegally doing so in the Court's place

Although I'm not in favor of it, I can't do anything to stop any member of the Senate from starting a Court action on their own to do something to affect Aggie or the illegal orders made. No-one has started such a court case ( ), but there's nothing stopping them.

Afterall, there's little point in having rules if we don't follow them. That goes for both the cabinet and the Senate. Call that excessive bureaucracy if you want, but I agree with DAVOUT that it's the only thing that's keeping this a "democracy" game in anything but name only right about now.

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by Togas
As one of the drafters of the New Con I feel horrible that that we included this into the document. Frankly, I was (and still am) thinking of just offering an amendement to take a few of the "checks" out of the document to keep this sort of mistake from happening in the future.

The decision was made with the support of those in attendance. We are all at fault. It was a wise decision and one that I'm sure he'd make again if he was put to the test.

All controversy aside, I'm sure this poll will reflect that the people accept the apology of the President and wish for the game to move on.

--Togas

Don't feel so bad about it concerning the NewCon. ANY set of rules which have been created and not yet tested on actual, fallible, human beings is going to have growing pains and need adjustment to account for things that were unanticipated. This is entirely natural.

That said, growing pains we are certainly having with thew NewCon and some ammendments seem necessary.

I think the following ammendments should at least be proposed:

1. Allow members of the cabinet to propose bills. The lines in the NewCon giving the FAM exclusive ability to propose Alliances and MPPs are currently problematic, because he can't propose his own senate bill to seek approval (also necessary) for that same proposal. This was the problem I ran into as FAM when proposing the legal MPPs signed during the chat (never mind the illegal ones...).
2. Make the check on the FAM for signing MPPs and alliances during times of war considerably more lax than during times of peace. When in times of peace, allowing the FAM to sign MPPs and alliances willy-nilly would probably drag the country into war against the wishes of the Senate. During wartime, we're ALREADY at war and the FAM needs considerably more power to sign such agreements on short notice w/o having to take the 3 days to get Senate bills passed.
3. Some ammendment to handle the issue of tied elections.

That should, I would think, resolve this.

We'll tackle additional growing pains as we experience them. This is entirely natural and we shouldn't be dumping on the people who wrote the constitution (Togas, notyoueither, Apocalypse, and adaMada) for it.

[ManicStarSeed]

What to do, how about ..

Voting for Yea for the new senate bill pardoning the administartion.

Vote here

Mss

[WhiteBandit]

I have not voted in this poll and also have no intention of doing so.

Aggie rocks. Enough said.

[ManicStarSeed]

Originally posted by WhiteBandit
I have not voted in this poll and also have no intention of doing so.

Aggie rocks. Enough said.

I agree.

Please vote for the new senate bill that I hope will put this all to rest.

Thanks;
Mss

[notyoueither]

Don't go, Aggie.

Please.

[Meshelic]

Aggie must not resign from the game!

If Aggie goes, then I go!

[Arnelos]

Aggie isn't going anywhere... was I the only person who paid any attention to Aggie's statement on the issue regarding his intentions behind this?

[Meshelic]

Originally posted by Arnelos
Aggie isn't going anywhere... was I the only person who paid any attention to Aggie's statement on the issue regarding his intentions behind this?

No you weren't but the poll suggested otherwise, that if Aggie resigned that he'd leave the game. Although I understand that he will not leave the game, I still stand by my previous statement that if Aggie leaves, then I leave, for he has been one of my foremost supporters and sources of encouragement throughout this game, not to mention the fact that he is regarded as a hero and savior of the Apolytonian race by many of our citizens....

[Panag]

hi ,

if every person who made a mistake where to resign , well there would be no-one left in our civilzation , however we could write something down somewhere on a piece of paper so that next time around we wont have to decide wheter or not some actions are wrong or not

afterall Aggie is so honest as to admit it and it sounds allright if we where to put ourselfs in his shoes , .......

have a nice day

[Meshelic]

I'll tell you what Aggie needs to do. He needs to join the Labor Party. (I'm shameless, I know....)

[jdjdjd]

I edited, yes I admit it .

Forget it. His term is up.

[Arnelos]

I'm of the opinion that we just let this die now. We've put up enough of a stink already. My rant has been heard out, so I'm done at least.

[Meshelic]

Yes let this thread fade away...

[UnOrthOdOx]

Im totally lost here...so I wont vote