What do you want for your techs?

Viriato · August 29, 2000, 18:47

The thing that makes me hesitate the most in MP games is deciding thechs exchange, in particular exchanging techs for credits. For instance 25 credits (what the AI normally gives us in return) may be a lot of money in the first turns but it's a bargain in the middle game.
How do you decide what to ask for a particular tech? What things do you take in consideration (income/turn, turns/tech, ...)? And what are you willing to offer?
And when exchanging tech per tech, do you always exchange techs of the same level?
[This message has been edited by Viriato (edited August 29, 2000).]

August 29, 2000, 19:59

techs that wont hurt you

Simpson II · August 30, 2000, 19:25

What I would ask depends mainly on my current tech cost. However, I never sell techs for the 25-50 the AI offers - that's a pitiful amount. I gain more by forcing the AIs to do it the hard way. On the upside, the AI will sell very cheaply. 100 ec for a tech it would cost me 800 RP to do myself - yes, please!

I have very little experience of contact with humans beyond a 1v1 game - where, unsurprisingly, I have not traded techs with the other player. However, as Qualiciide says, I wouldn't trade good military techs like Doc AP to a potential enemy. Only if we were pacted and going for a coop victory would that sort of thing emerge. As to what I recieve, it would be a matter of what I wanted at the time. I wouldn't trade for a tech I didn't need, but I will certainly trade down if it suits my purposes.

That assumes blind research is off. With blind on, I would be looking more at the level of the tech, since that's an accurate representation of the difficulty of reaching it.
[This message has been edited by Simpson II (edited August 30, 2000).]

Beör · August 31, 2000, 04:05

quote:

Originally posted by Simpson II on 08-30-2000 07:25 PM
With blind on, I would be looking more at the level of the tech, since that's an accurate representation of the difficulty of reaching it.
[This message has been edited by Simpson II (edited August 30, 2000).]

Aaaaah SII, but:

The cost in RP to get a tech is not dependent on the level of the tech, only on the number of techs you have researched so far. Therefore, if you by difficulty mean RP cost, you are wrong

.

On the other hand there are other considerations. The offered tech might be unavailable to you the hard way at the present time, because you lack the prerequisites. It could also be a lacking prerequisite for an important tech with an odd placing in the tech tree compared to where you are right now. This could be crucial.

I don't think you can avoid having almost all of the lower level techs, but you might be able to postpone certain techs till after you have reached some of the important techs like Ind Aut, restriction lifting ones and tree farms. Trading for the proper techs might assist you in this.

Simpson II · August 31, 2000, 13:25

Beör,

True, the tech level doesn't affect the cost directly. However, although I almost never do blind research, I understood that you had to research all level 1 techs before you start getting level 2 ones. I could easily be wrong, but if not then it is a rough guide. Anyone know more about what you will get from blind research?

Simpson II · August 31, 2000, 15:20

Er, after reading the thread in the General forum I realize that I was indeed completely off the mark. So strike everything I've said relating to blind research!

Viriato · August 31, 2000, 17:53

Thanks for the answers.

I'm going to be more specific:
I have a game where I traded a level 2 tech for a level 3 tech to a pactmate. Now he wants to buy another tech from me for a price I find unnaceptable. The year is around 2170 and what he offers is less than what he makes in 2 turns. OTOH I'm at 20+ turns/tech at the moment. In your opinion is this a fair deal? I think not. The problem here is that he's either bluffing or I'll loose a pact brother

.

Beör · September 1, 2000, 04:29

SII

I refuse to strike everything you said about blind research, since it actually makes sense - sort off

. It is important how 'difficult' it is to get a tech - RPs just don't necessarily have much to do with it.

Viriato

As I tried to point out above the level of the tech is really not important. And 'Fair deal' doesn't come in to the equation either. What's is important is: Does this trade serve your needs? Who cares about fair - this is politics

.
You have to evaluate the pros and cons, and since the immediate benefits you stand to gain are just a few energy credits, you must evaluate your diplomatic, strategic and tactical position as regards your pact mate: Who and where is your pact mate. How powerful is he? Are there significant trade benefits? Is he likely to be of any assistance to you against a common enemy? Are you just pacted with him to get him of your back and reap some trade untill you can strike at him with a vengeance? What tech does he want? Is he at war? Are you at war? Do you need his vote in council?

In a recent game I played the Spartans and had a decent corner on the smaller part of a largish continent consisting of two parts connected by an isthmus. Around the isthmus Yang was lurking - I hate it when he does that - but we had a pact and had traded some minor techs. It was around 2170, and Yang had been fighting Deirdre on the larger part of the continent for the last 30-40 years, coming up with the upper hand, mainly because he had a small tech lead from the techs I had been feeding him. The fighting had slowed his expansion somewhat, but now they had a truce and the fighting seemed to stop since Deirdre were now involved with some scirmishes with Zach. Meanwhile I had ICSed my part of the continent and done some decent development and prototyping.
And along comes Yang asking for plasma armor actually offering another decent tech. What to do?
I reasoned something like this: Yang is at peace, seems to have cornered Deirdre and has ample room for expansion, Although almost at par technologically, he is behind in development, and still suffering from the onslaughts of Deirdres creeping MWs (which she actually used with some success it seems). I have a slight technological edge and a small but hardcore army (4 elite 4-3-2 rovers as i recall it). I lack the room for further expansion, and the seas are not an option for me at the moment. This leaves two avenues of advance: I can fight Deirdre or Yang. Yang can actually be a truthful pactmate (beleive it or not), and it is common knowledge that Deirdre is treacherous (I actually once had her go from pact to vendetta in 15-20 years, eventhough I was running Green and kept bribing her. She even pacted with Morgan running FM

). On the other hand I figured that I would have to fight them both at some point, so I opted for turning Yang down, attacked him and captured two bases the same turn. 5 years later he surrendered. In the process I had pacted Deirdre. I kept expanding and at some point Deirdre turned on me as I had expected. I swept her of board in an alliance with Zach whom I had been bribing with the occasional tech and a few of Yangs former bases. I could go on, it was actually a rather interesting game, with lots of diplomatic activity, but I have to get some work done now.

So you see - 'fair' is not an option!

DilithiumDad · September 1, 2000, 11:34

In single-player I'm happy to sell each of my techs for 25 EC. I can sell the same tech 6 times to all the other factions and get not 25 but 150 EC! I can even sell techs I got in trade from other factions. Giving a tech as a gift is economic because it keeps the faction in a good enough mood to buy ore techs in the future.

In multi-player it's more coplicated. Expecially with 7 players, I usually find that the turn after I have sold my latest tech it is now in the hands of all the other factions. So unless the trading partner is willing to offer you some form of "patent protection" (not trading or giving the tech to other factions for 10 years, say) then the price should be stiff --atleast 100 credits and maybe 200. Then there is the question of secret projects. Sometimes I will offer a pledge not to build a secret project to lower the price of a tech. In one game I sold Presentient Algorhythms to a University pactmate for 200 EC (he could afford it). But the tech trade was made with the understading that I would not build the HSA and that I would not give the tech to any other faction. So with a virtual gaurantee of getting the HSA as University in game with 7 human players, I think 200 EC was pretty cheap (my pactmate didn't see it that way).

------------------
Creator of the Ultimate Builder Map, based on the Huge Map of Planet

Viriato · September 1, 2000, 18:50

Beör,
I have to admit that I tend to neglect diplomacy in SP games. Sometimes I even try to get them at vendetta all at the same time. Maybe that's why I have problems like this in MP: lack of practice

. Anyway, thanks for the lesson.

DDad,
You have reached the point I wanted to focus.
The game I refered is a 7 players game and I'm late in infrastructure so I need credits to hurry build. To make it worst I'm playing the spartans with their industry penalty.
The problem is that people prefer to offer techs instead of credits. I need credits more than techs and the more techs I get the more RP I need to get another discover. So I try to negotiate. The next turn I find that the other guy has bought the tech somewhere else and I get no credits and no techs

.

JAMiAM · September 2, 2000, 18:54

Sounds like a familiar scenario, Viriato. Is that our game?

Viriato · September 3, 2000, 09:28

I was wondering whether and when you'd showed up

.
Do you have any suggestions for me? I know this is a bit awkward but I'll take it in consideration for future situations.

JAMiAM · September 3, 2000, 13:55

Oh, I've been lurking since your first post.

In early years, among pact mates, the prices that I offered you (50ec per tech level) are considered fair prices. Particularly, for non top shelf weaponry techs. I've conducted many a trade in pbem games at that rate.

Simpson II · September 3, 2000, 19:09

Hmmm... 50ec per level? For level one, and some level two techs, that is a great deal. As the tech cost increases, though, that's pretty pathetic by the time you get to level 6 or 7. By this time, even bee-lining, your research cost is huge by comparison to the cash.. what sort of techs were you guys talking about?

JAMiAM · September 4, 2000, 00:23

S2,

I agree. When you get to level 6 techs, the stakes are generally much higher. Tech trading at that level is generally, in pbem games, performed only by pacted players, who have trust in each other (at least for the next few decades

)

IIRC, I had traded a level 3 tech for his level 2 tech, on a previous turn. Then he offered to sell me a level two tech. I offered 50 ec, reasoning that it was fair as he was a tech level "in debt" from the previous trade. I believe that he was trying to sell me Polymorphic Software.

Viriato · September 4, 2000, 17:16

Yes it was PS.
I don't have many experience in techs exchange in MP. That's why I posted this thread. I'll remember your advice in future deals.

I still think that the price you offered was a much better deal for you than for me, but, considering that we were pact brothers and I was 'in debt' from the previous trade I might have been a bit greedy. After all, 50 credits is better than nothing and, as I did find out soon, I wasn't the only salesman in business.