When do you build SPs?

[Simpson II]

I'm in a MP game right now where one player (who shall go nameless) chose to start the Weather Paradigm around 2110. He was Morgan, so it's just conceivable that he had rushed both tanks and a commons, but I doubt very much that he had a former. He will, almost without a doubt, get the SP. On the other hand his early expansion must be virtually crippled!

There must be a point at which the damage to your early game development ouweighs the avantage of builing one, and I suppose that in MP the idea would be to start shortly after that, forcing opponents to either loose it or damage themselves. But when does this come?

With a tech faction, I tend to wait until I have crawlers. My expansion is well under way, and I can boost my mineral poduction so that it doesn't take too long. Plus crawler upgrades, if house rules allow.
With Hive, Miriam etc. I would want 6, preferably 8 bases before one starts a SP. Otherwise I'm seriously hampering my ICS phase.

So when do you build Secret Projects?

[Beör]

Simpson II

As you I try to get my core bases established, preferably with tanks, commons and a former a piece, before I consider building an SP (usually WP - I love terraforming!). As quickly as possible I ICS till the number of bases just before the first inefficiency warning. There is little time for garrisons and techwise I aim for Ind Aut.

Actually I probably wait a little too long, since I almost never get to build the first SP. UoP usually builds VW as the first SP in my games (strictly singleplayer). Frequently I don't even get HGP, but since I have mostly been playing the Spartans these drone control SPs are not very significant, except as part of a denial strategy.

HOWEVER, if you have a little luck Pod Popping, you might have procured 2-3 Alien Artefacts. As we have discussed in another thread this might be a perfect time to have the AAs contribute to an SP contributing 100-150 mins, rather than linking them to nodes that you don't even have at the moment. Having the WP very early - say 30 turns earlier than usual - could give you immense terraforming advantage, in the late early game.

But still 2110 is very early!

[WhiteElephants]

I used to wait until I had rec. commons and a recycling tank in my cities before I built any SP's, but now it depends more on how well I can control drones as opposed to building the rec. commons. If I can have a city that will grow to size three without problems I will start a project there especially if I can manage to have a mineral special resource close. I say size three because I generally takes a while to move from size three to four which gives me time to finish the project. I generally finish a project in the early to mid 2160's. If I find a few AA's laying around I might be tempted to cash them in to speed up the project depending on which project it is and if someone else is trying to build it. With the first city I have I usually build a former (if I need it) or a scout to search for AA's, then a pod, then start the project. I guess I don't feel that using one city for a project hampers my ICS'ing too much since the first city and second will have pods out shortly to build more pods. I suppose you could also build two pods in the first city and then turn to the SP's.

[Beör]

WE

This is certainly earlier than I do it (commence SPs I mean).

What faction do you play, and what is your favourite SP?

[Googlie]

I'm a believer in WP'ing at the earliest possible moment. The small setback of tying up a base for its production is hugely offset by the terraforming speed gained, to say nothing of the ability to borehole, condense and echelon before the tech arrives (altho the fruit isn't available until the requisite tech, the infrastructure is in place)

And as Morgan, why not? He'll likely have Ind Auto first, meaning crawlers, and of all the factions he can afford to hurry build - heck I'll even sell base facilities to finance its building. As Morgan I think it beats even the ME for early value (altho later, if you get the lab-enhancing techs SPs in the same base, it will rival the extremely valuable PEG).

One mistake I did make in a recent IP game (as Spartans) was to have five inland bases and one coastal, and started the Command Nexus about turn fifteen or so in the coastal base. Still is just 90% built (in 2160) and finally got a second coastal base built and produced a foil - way behind in ocean pod popping, and in tech as a result.

Googlie

[Googlie]

WE:

As soon as I have Cent Ec I'll build a former first thing at any new base - it's the cheapest unit available to rush build (at transcend level it's 25 credits, and a base usually has at least 2 mins, making a 21 credit cost for the former, and it's cheaper for the lower difficulty settings) - place the initial scout patrol in the build queue.

If I can, I've trekked a scout with the colony pod anyway, but if not, the only exception I make is if I know there is a mindworm lurking or another faction - then I let the initial scout be built first.

It's all about turn advantage again - get that former working for the four or five turns it would take otherwise (it's not 25 credits to rush build if you've already built a scout in that base)

Then if you have the WP...............



Googlie

[WhiteElephants]

Lately all I've been playing is the Gaians. I've been playing my games to win by transcend on a standard map so I haven't got a chance to play too many other factions. I usually go for the Weather Paradigm mainly because it allows me to terraform up and down and put condensors on squares with nutrient specials with a farm to really boost up my population.

In my limited experience with multiplayer games I've noticed that in 2 out of the 3 games people have started the Command Nexus first. Anyone else notice this trend? I would think the Weather Paradigm or Human Genome might be first, but I suppose things can get pretty fast and furious in multiplayer at the drop of a hat.

I agree with Googlie about the former build first, but circumstances make the biggest difference for me. If the bases is close to other factions or lots of fungus then the scout comes first. Some bases don't require a former until later stages if the land is rainy enough. In this case I build a scout or two and change to a facility like rec. commons or more likely recycling tanks.

[Simpson II]

Googlie,
Do you play blind research? In that case I can see an argument for starting a project very early with Morgan.. playing directed as Zakharov or Morgan, I've nothing against finishing a project in the mid 60's, if you have real competition for it.. but you can do that after the base has built 2 colony pods, rec tanks and commons!
I'm very surprised that people will start SPs before they have rushed tanks in a base! Especially as Morgan, who can afford to do it straight off the bat, if he researches Biogenetics before Centauri Ecology. That way you can still have a project underway by 2112 or whenever, but you have massively enhanced production - +1/3 at the start (you are using forests here?), and you get the second population faster.
Consider a base which begins a SP in 2110, and finishes in 2160. It took 50 turns. A production 8 base (tanks, commons, size 3) will do it in 25. Add in a crawler or two, and you will finish it in under 20 turns. In a real game as Zak, and putting my back to it, I would hope to have a base approaching 20 minerals/turn in the 50's.
As Miriam or the Hive you don't have these options, of course, so unless you think you can probe away Ind. Auto it might make sense to start early. I'm doubtful, though.. the whole point of momentum is that someone else does the building, and you take what you want. Perhaps for a Miriam-as-builder strategy.

On the question of what to build first, I do things slightly differently. My first 2 bases build scouts, then formers after Cent Eco is done, then do pods. The formers do 2 squares worth of improvement, then move off to my next base site. If there isn't much fungus and the land is fairly flat, I build a road to speed the Colony Pod. Otherwise I will build a sensor where I intend to have the base. Human structures 'scare' (ahem, Firaxis' term) away MWs, so there is less danger of fried CPs (in one of my MP games, someone lost his first 3 to worms! It wasn't even a very fungusy planet.) When the pod arrives, the former is rehomed to the new base. The base builds it's scout with the bonus minerals, before beginning work on a CP. The base it came from begins a new former (rushed when 1/2 done, if I have the energy.) Finally it does the second CP, and the process repeats.
So, while no base is undefended for more than 1 turn, I always have a former working for any base which has more citizens than improved squares. Plus, I get a couple of turns 'free' per base that I get a road built to. The sensor-under-base thing is fairly sweet in it's own way, perhaps I'll be glad of it in MP.
What do you think?

[Googlie]

I agree with the sensor strategy - if I have the time I'll plant a forest before the basebuild, even delaying a turn or two if necessary to accomplish this.

Rarely build roads until I have five or six bases to link, then I'll put all my formers on to linking in a few turns - I'd rather have them foresting in the early turns, or prepping sites for bases.

And yes, I prefer double blind in SP games - keeps the freshness alive (and with random personalities and agendas leads to some abrupt breaking of stereotypical thinking). No pod distribution, and often tech stag - the AI seems to fare better with tech stag for some reason (AI cheats maybe? - or maybe it is better at exploring than me and meets and trades more quickly)

LOL in a recent IP game that was randomized my buddy was Yang and was "Solicitous" as a character trait.

Googlie

[Simpson II]

Double blind, tech stag?? Ugh... only ever as the Gaians. I love my formers too much!

I do think there is a strong argument for roads ASAP in the right places. Pumping out pods quickly means that your bases are size 1-2 for quite a while, and I find my terraforming is still far enough ahead to cope with crawlers and a pop-boom (at least when I do all-forests.) That's on directed research, on blind you must stay way ahead in terraforming.
Roads clock up turn advantage amazingly quickly - two base-turns for every three squares of road. I'm very happy to start a forest 3-4 turns later if it means the base gets built 3-4 turns faster! Not useful for rocky terrain, but absolutely great on flat.

Of course, you can't quantify the advantage from sensors under a base. Personally I'd rather build 5-6 around a base in the mid game than one in the early game, though. You can take those away, but you will have to give some warning before attacking.

As to the AI 'exploring' better, you could say this. While using the scenario editor (testing factions) I've often see the AI load a couple of units onto a foil and send it directly to another factions HQ - the orders on the square to move to actually given the turn it leaves port.
So yes, it can 'explore' rather more effectively than most humans!
[This message has been edited by Simpson II (edited August 31, 2000).]

[WhiteElephants]

Well to throw in my two cents...

Simpson -- I'd be impressed, to say the least, if you can get a base up to 20 minerals in fifty turns. Ya know? I've never played the University so don't know if this is an average thing or not. I guess maybe it's my cautious nature that stops me from going straight through the tech tree to lift the restrictions. Usually something, I should say someone, pops up that needs to be held in check preventing my from beelining up the tech tree.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

WE,

As Zak it isn't that difficult as long as you are left unmolested by other factions. By mid 2130's or at worst early 2140's Industrial auto is yours. Two tech later and min restriction are lifted so say by mid to late 2140's you are free and clear to bring in untold mins.

My only comment is 20 mins this early in the game usually causes me eco damage (as I tend to be using FM/wealth somewhere around this point). I tend to settle for mins in the range 16 with usually 8 coming from mines. This allows crawler production at least one every other turn as the bases kick into crawler productions until all bases are at the 16 level. 20 mins doesn't seem to get me too much more just my preference tho'.

[Simpson II]

WE,

I said the '50's rather than turn 50, but yes, it can be done with Zak. A number of other factions can do it sometime in the '50's. I just sat down and played the start of a game as your favourite faction, the Gaians. I have a base producing 22 mins/turn in 2158, and I can finish the WP in 2167 even without help from the surrounding bases. (boastful sod, aren't I?)
This was literally the first game I sat down and did as an example for here, and the start is pretty indifferent. It's on a huge map, so on a standard one you could certainly knock off some turns. For the record I think I have 8 bases, all roaded together. Contact with Morgan, Santiago and Lal, and Vendetta with all 3 at some point. I bought them off to save time (though I do have 2 laser infantry.) I'll send you the .sav if you don't believe me!
Try it, I thought it sounded impossible when I read Vel posting on the subject, but it's actually quite easy.

Ogie,

Agreed, you will get some eco-damage. 3 in the game I describe above. Usually I don't go quite to 20 either (I did say approaching ), I max out at 17 or 18, but I will tolerate a little damage for the greater good. I know some people aren't at all careful, though - I'm in one PBEM where my opponent is happily running ecodamage scores in and approaching double figures. I can't criticize, he's waaay ahead of me .

[WhiteElephants]

I typically (always) play on a standard size map and make contact with someone usually on the same continent within the first 10 to 15 turns. I suppose if I had time to lollygag around with the techs it would be a different story whether I get to 20 minerals in the 50's or not. I see you could knock turns off to get to the appropriate tech level, but starting next to Yang, Mirium, Santiago, the Aliens, however would tend to actually add turns because of the necessity for defense particularly if we are taliking about human players instead of the AI. I just think it is a little chancy to put all your eggs in one basket hoping to get the restrictions lifted as early as possible when someone can get imapct rovers with three to four techs or a couple of mindworms and run you over. I feel that in multiplayer there is a strong neccessity for defense, though I speak with little experience, especially for the builder type players which getting to 20 minerals in the 50's sounds like to me.

[Simpson II]

WE,

In the game I described I hadn't lifted the mineral restrictions; I had quite a number of crawlers supported from the base (I could have had WP or whatever built before even '58 if I'd really wanted to. )

I don't have a huge problem with defence vs the AI, even on standard maps (which I play fairly often.) A couple of recon rovers lying around seem to make it a lot more friendly.
I definitely hear what you say about defence in MP though, especially on standard maps. However, bee-lineing for high-energy chemistry and building garrisons everywhere is just not an option in my view.. you loose so much time that you are effectively out of the game before it begins, unless you intend a pure conquest strategy. Until you can build a true armed forces to project some power, you are just allowing another player to deny you productivity and tech-rate without them having to do a single thing!
This is why infltration is so important. This is something that, in my experience, people do not do enough in MP. I have taken over quite a number of games, and have one going into the second century, but I have never seen a player infiltrate another human! Knowing a nearby opponent's tech level and military readiness is vital, so that you can tailor your defences to their attack force. And, when necessary, you know where to steal some military techs to bolster your defences. And if you want to have P. Networks and Ind. base anyway for military reasons, then hey, go those two extra techs down the line for the second-best builder tech of them all (besides Centauri Eco!)

Now, by the time you get Ind Auto you have researched at least one tech other than those on the beeline. If that is applied physics (in reality you will get this from a pod almost every time, at least in my games), then HEChem and non-linear maths can come immediately after IA and you are in a position, in the 50's or 60's, to build an excellent armed force from one single base, with every unit benefiting from a single command centre. Or if you are relatively isolated then you can churn out SPs like mad, or have 10 extra formers in 10 turns, or whatever you wish to build very, very quickly. And that's the name of the early-game.

And remember that crawlers can be military units too! As Vel suggests in the strat guides, they can be upgraded to best armour/ECM or trance - this is sufficient to stop a pretty good attack force, since they are certainly getting +50% for terrain and probably +25% for a sensor - so against conventional forces they are actually more secure than units in a base, prior to Perimeter defences! Armouring formers and crawlers is definitely a good tactic, it is causing me no end of headaches when Paul is doing it against me.

All in all, I'm convinced that a good builder or hybrid beeline will include Ind. Auto very early, and much enhanced mineral production thereafter. Putting ~20 minerals of it into one base is simpler and allows a faster reaction time when the momentum people come calling, or when you decide to pay someone else a visit. There is a definite argument with the Gaians for Doc flex first, and there are sundry other important techs for each faction, but I know just how far behind I've put myself by delaying it too long in one of my MP games. Not pretty, and not a mistake I will make again (and another reason I don't like blind research ).

[WhiteElephants]

So it's not so much the restrictions lifted as it is the accumulation of a ton of crawlers, eh? I suppose you could always build the crawlers at other bases to suppliment the single high producing bases as well. I believe it is possible, but I still put other units, projects, and facilities above pumping out a bunch of crawlers for a single base particularly probe teams. I don't like other factions knowing my business. I think the reason no one has infiltrated anyone in the games you've got is because it can be difficult and you risk losing your mineral investment to a wandering scout. In the very young games I'm in just looking at the map gives me a good idea of what direction the probes are going to hit me from and I can prepare for that in advance with some of my own probes or a screen of scouts.

[Simpson II]

WE,

I realize it isn't that easy by land, but does no-one build foil probes? They're the first unit I ever designed in Smac, and still one of the most useful. Not cheap, I admit, but IMHO very worthwhile.

[WhiteElephants]

Yeah, foil probes are great, I wonder why there not automatically created in the workshop? I don't think I've ever seen the AI use them either, probably because they're not in the workshop. But anyway, like I was saying, using a probe foil is also an obvious choice as well as Marines to quickly assault a costal base or sea base which makes me shy away from them. Of course, I need a few to put out some probe foils, or whatever, of my own, but those bases will tend to be highly gaurded because of the ease with which they can be taken or probed.

I also think the idea of trying to probe someone else and losing that probe or probes makes me nervous because then I may be short on probes to defend against a counter probe. Maybe I'm too darned cautious?

[Basil]

Well, there is a problem with adding foil probes to the list of default units, and that is, what should the prerequisite tech be? You really should need both Planetary Networks and Doc: Flex, but you can only choose 1 prerequisite tech for a unit. So which do you pick?

The lowest tech which has both Planetary Networks and Doc: Flex as prerequisites is Doc: Initiative, which is the prerequisite for cruisers, which makes probe foils obsolescent. So I've added Probe Cruisers to the default units for my games, but unfortunately they come along a long time after the Probe Foils should have.

[WhiteElephants]

Basil -- I don't know what to do about other than play multiplayer.

What I really wanted to know is how you set up the default designs. I imagine it is something in the workshop that I overlooked, eh? If I don't hear from you I'll just mess with the workshop when I get home.

[Fitz]

You specify the default designs in the alphax.txt file. There is a section that includes them all. I've considered disabling them all because I hate not being able to obsolete them, but I hadn't considered what that does to the AI.

[Simpson II]

WE,

In spite of what is in the strat guide, I have seen most people build quite a few coastal bases. On many maps, consistently building a couple of squares inland will reduce the number of bases you can have drastically. I guess that people would rather loose one or two than limit themselves so much in the first place. I'll build inland if I can, but it isn't a cast-iron rule.

Basil wrote a masterful piece on how to change the basic unit designs in the creation forum. The thread is at http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum13/HTML/000263.html
Btw, do many people build probe cruisers? I've always stuck with my cheaper foil designs. Maybe the extra speed is more important in MP.

[Garth Vader]

I build probe cruisers in SP but haven't had a good naval MP game yet. Put deep radar on them and they make great scouts, since your probes get to be elite much faster than combat naval units.

[RedFred]

Leaping into the debate very late, I'd like to add that you should not depend on a rigid formula for early base development and SP production.

With enough AAs or cash, 2110 or earlier is not unreasonable for starting that all important SP. As long as you are able to complete it by 2120, 2125 at the latest, my belief is that the long term gain of nabbing a key SP early on is worth the developmental setback in one of your cities.

[mark13]

Also nipping into the debate very late, I would argue against the notion that a very early SP is worth the developmental setback in that city. The main reason is that there are 4 or 5 projects available in that part of the game, each of which are very useful. So as long as you do get a secret projects completed by 2140, even if you are second or third to do so, you are guaranteed a secret project, and with it the basic infrastructure to build many more.

[RedFred]

Provided that your ambition was only to nab one of the early important SPs, I'd have to agree with you, mark13. My hope is always to get at least two of the three early biggies, HGP, WP and VW. Maybe even EG as well.

Circumstances vary, however. I've had games that did not make favourable conditions to the building of an SP until after 2150. OTOH, I've had a game where I was able to complete an SP by 2117.

By 2110 you have at least two cities. I try to plant that starting colony pod by 2104, 2106 at the latest. The determining factor on my decision to go ahead with a SP that early is primarily based on anticipated speed to completion. Taking one city "offline" for a big length of time that early in the game will cause you grief.

[Simpson II]

An SP by 2117, eh? God, and I was pleased with having an impact rover in '13! Yeah, if you can do it that quickly then it's not a problem. I prefer to keep my AAs for techs, but the psychological impact of someone building WP by '20 would be worthwhile in itself. What faction did you do that with, the Gaians? The Cult?

[RedFred]

Roze. I had lots of cash and two AAs.