Can a 13 year old girl be a lesbian- and if so, should she go to gym class?

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Asher
I guess I should be proud that I have a backbone, then. Most of my friends wouldn't have sex with someone they didn't want to, regardless of peer pressure.

Maybe things are different in Canada, where people have backbone and integrity when it comes to personal choices.

love is more important to me than sex

but I would not want to (and there would probably be a good chance that my love for the girl would not withstand that occasion)

if you offered me a million dollars to to have sex with a guy, I would not (no matter how much money you offered)

if I had to have sex with a guy to save a life, I would

if I had to have sex with a guy to save my life, I probably wouldn't

it is all about what is important to you

Jon Miller

[Drake Tungsten]

Originally posted by Asher
Jesus Christ, Drake, what's your problem?

I never said "absolutely no gay ones do". I said no ones I know do, and I also said "most gays" do not.

And I do think "virtually everyone" can include the vast majority of people in the country. I don't see why you think virtually everyone is synonymous with everyone.

Maybe this scale will help you out.

None = No one.

Virtually none = Damn close to none. A few holdouts, usually in the South or Montana.

A few = More supporters than "virtually none", but still a small number.

Some = More than a few.

Many = A lot of supporters, but not yet a majority.

Majority = Greater than 50%

Vast Majority = Significantly more than 50%. I believe this is the term you were looking for.

Virtually Everyone = Damn close to everyone. A few holdouts, again in the South or Montana. If a significant portion of the population (like homosexuals) is against something, then this term is inappropriate.

Everyone - Every single person.

You can print this out and put it on your wall if you want. It might help you in debates. Not as much as ego reduction surgery would, but it'll help a little.

[Asher]

Who died and made you dictator of quantification?

Virtually everyone, to me, means >90%.
I clarified what I've meant several times now but you're still on this for god-knows-what-reason.

Vast majority works too, next time I'll try to be more sensitive for the idiots who like to spend half a dozen posts picking apart trivial phrase choices.

[Drake Tungsten]

I clarified what I've meant several times now but you're still on this for god-knows-what-reason.

I'm still on it because you won't admit that you used an unfortunately vague term, but then criticized Jon Miller for doing the exact same thing. As usual, you are always right and anyone who disagrees with you is a "weirdo" or an "idiot".

Just face facts, Ashie. You're Fez with a better understand of the English language. Get some class, you ****ing *****.

[Shi Huangdi]

Well, this thread started at the top of toilet bowl, it appears to now have been flushed all the way down.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
I'm still on it because you won't admit that you used an unfortunately vague term, but then criticized Jon Miller for doing the exact same thing.

"Virtually everyone" is not a vague term. The general idea of it was the vast majority of the people use the word "gay" as a derrogatory term. Yes, "vast majority" would have been a better word, but it DOESN'T MATTER.

It still doesn't change a damn thing. You knew what I meant, since it was painfully obvious. You tried no less than two times after you use strawmen and twist my words around to try to make a point, and failed, and now you're still whining about me using "virtually everyone".

Jon Miller's word choice is a totally different matter. There is a HUGE difference between "be bisexual" and "claim to be bisexual", and there is next to no difference between "virtually everyone" and "vast majority" -- in fact the latter are so conceptually similar that it doesn't change the point being made.

As usual, you are always right and anyone who disagrees with you is a "weirdo" or an "idiot".

No, if you'll notice I never called Jon Miller nor Monkspider a weirdo or an idiot and I disagree with them. I call the girls in the midwest who have gay sex because of peer pressure weirdos, and I call you an idiot because you keep trying to pick stupid little arguments with no basis.

[Dis]

I must say this is a slight threadjack

[Dis]

for the record

I would have sex with a guy for 1 million dollars

I just thought you guys would like to know that

[Drake Tungsten]

You're so funny, Asher.

And I'd sleep with a guy for a million dollars too. Not because I need the money, but because I'm so open-minded and liberated. Yeah, that's the reason...

[Giancarlo]

I would have sex with a guy if I had a relationship with him. I wouldn´t take money at all to have sex, I am no whore!

[Zero]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
You're so funny, Asher.

And I'd sleep with a guy for a million dollars too. Not because I need the money, but because I'm so open-minded and liberated. Yeah, that's the reason...

well for million dollar or whatever, I have no problem 'giving it' to him.. but i dunno about 'taking it'... i guess its just matter of dominance...

[Boris Godunov]

Ok, let's weight the following:

Peer Pressure to be bi/gay:

It's cool in the movies
It will turn on your sexual partner
It will make other cool bi people like you.

Peer Pressure not to be bi/gay:

You will be ridiculed as a fag/**** by peers
You will be ostracized by your peers
You will get the **** kicked out of you by your peers
You will break the hearts of your parents.
You will never be considered "normal" or lead a "normal" life.

Gee, I can't help but think one side is pretty heavily tilted...

[Asher]

The "grandkids" complaint from the parents is surprisingly weighty, too.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Asher
The "grandkids" complaint from the parents is surprisingly weighty, too.

The potential rejection by family/friends is the most excruciating of them all. I wasn't nearly as worried about being beaten as much as I was being disowned.

[Asher]

I'm wondering if I should tell my parents now, because they might be even more hurt if I wait even longer.

But it's not something that's easy to do, and the potential consequences of it are anything but glamorous...

I suppose this is the reason why all of the gay/bi posters scoff at the people who pretend to be gay/bi to be hip...

[Boris Godunov]

Easy? Telling my parents is to this day the hardest thing I've ever done in my life.

[Shi Huangdi]

You will be ridiculed as a fag/**** by peers
You will be ostracized by your peers
You will get the **** kicked out of you by your peers
You will break the hearts of your parents.
You will never be considered "normal" or lead a "normal" life.

has this all happened to yuo?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
has this all happened to yuo?

Nope, thankfully, but the fear was there it would happen to me, as it has certainly happened to others. That was the important thing in terms of pressure.

[Jon Miller]

among the circles I have seen, that does not happen

probably still does in areas of the south

Jon Miller

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
among the circles I have seen, that does not happen

probably still does in areas of the south

Jon Miller

Incidents of homophobic behavior against high school students, whether their orientation was actually known or perceived, are documented in every part of the country in pretty much every socio-economic environment.

[Jon Miller]

I guess you are right, most circles I see do not do so, but some people do

as far as I could tell, the people socially 'out' were by and large put down far more (for being allegedly gay) than those who actually engaged in homosexual activities (and more popular, and female)

I should have said that there are groups everywhere, who do not do those things (and so you would not be an outcast, you just may not be accepted into a couple of groups (in fact, guys would find a much harder time being accepted (As far as I have seen) than girls))

Jon Miller

[Shi Huangdi]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


Incidents of homophobic behavior against high school students, whether their orientation was actually known or perceived, are documented in every part of the country in pretty much every socio-economic environment.

Right, I did a paper on peer harrasment in school for sociology. The types of harrasment homosexuals can face in schools can be particularly brutal, and can even include malicious violence and gang-raping. The harassment against homosexuals is documented to occur against gays and lesbians alike.

Here is one of the webpages I used in my research:

http://www.safeschoolscoalition.org/stories-all.html

[Jon Miller]

as far as I have seen, in many places the harrassment against lesbians no longer exists

(as in they are the popular and in girls)

Jon Miller
it was true in my school.. (and in the schools nearby)

[Asher]

I think it's safe to say that your school/region is far from normal. In fact it's almost reverse discrimination, where everyone WANTS to be a lesbian.

Something's in the air over there...

[Boris Godunov]

A guy I went to college with was gang-raped by a group of his highschool boys. They assumed he would secretly enjoy it. He was still having nightmares about it many many years later.

[Giancarlo]

In the schools I have been to I was called a fag even though nobody knew that I really was bi. So discrimination was prevalent. Even when I was in San Diego some time ago I was harassed because people thought I looked gay.

I just ignore it.

[Jon Miller]

I was called a fag in highschool to (despite not being one)

it started changing when I was a junior, and was fairly changed when I was a senior and in the 4 years since than (I have siblings in the school and still hang out with my younger siblings, so..)

but than the class below me had thier senior class president be kicked out of office for prostitution so yah, my highschool might be a bit weird (I actually hope so)

my college I have been led to beleive is not, however

and that is horrid Boris, I think in many places that would not happen today (but were not all those who gang raped him being homosexual too? that is something I don't understand)

and Asher, I didn't say that everyone wants to be a lesbian, just that everyone was pressured (I would actually have to re-ask my younger siblings what the precentages are)

Jon Miller

[Asher]

I can't recall ever being called a fag/gay/whatever in high school, but lots of people I know were continually called it.

They were all straight though.

Ah, high school is fun.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
and that is horrid Boris, I think in many places that would not happen today (but were not all those who gang raped him being homosexual too? that is something I don't understand)

It happens more often than you think, I bet. However, usually it's boys raping lesbians.

And they just forced him to fellate them. It's kinda like the Mexican machismo thing. As long as they were the servicees rather than the servicers, I'm sure they could rationalize it away as not impugning their sexuality. Besides, they were first and foremost humiliating the fag.

And maybe one or more of them was a closeted homosexual. The ones who are most repressed often really do express the most virulently homophobic tendencies.

[Jon Miller]

ugh

what is really popular (at least among men) is for the girl to be Bi, not Lez (even though they will say Lez)

Jon Miller