Singleplayer/Multiplayer thoughts...

[aaglo]

Hi!

When the civ3 came out last year, a lot of people was dissapointed/angry because there was no MP included. There were threats about "not going to pay for MP-expansion" flying all around.

The other side of the coin.

Why do those people, who don't want to play MP, allways have to pay for that feature? In this sence the general gaming industry isn't fair.

So the ranting about no-MP-in-Civ3-makes-me-mad is quite silly actually.

Now, that was my opininon, what is yours?

[MariOne]

Hey!
SQUONK!
A Trick of the Tail quote!
I thought you were younger...
(and the horses and men were the King's, not yours...)

Re the topic....
well, one thing is a game coming out with MP feature included from the start,
and a different thing is paying the average market full-game price for the SP release, and then paying again the average market full-game price for the MP expansion (along with few minor items and ripped-off-from-the-net scenarios)

If you think that a game released with MP feature from the start would have initially costed less had it been published SP only, you "might" have a point.
I would imagine tho that the initial release price of a game is *not really* influenced by the availability of MP feature, but only by mere market considerations. Just wild guessing, I can't know for sure, of course.

[FrustratedPoet]

True MariOne, when Civ3 was released it cost £35 pounds. If it had included MP it would still have cost £35.

All new releases cost almost exactly the same amount of money whether they include MP or not.

[War4ever]

i feel your pain, i dl a warez of civ3 and burned it to disk....i then had someone buy me a copy of civ3 ptw for my birthday....so i have come out ahead.....

but still, to charge us twice for such a poor games bugs me as i have posted elsewhere in the forums.....

pirating all aside, charging twice in essence for sp sucks.....like you stated...and by buying you support the corporate swine....

but pirating is illegal so i don't reccommend a career in it

[Thrawn05]

The question should be:

"Why do gaming companies use MP as an exuse for replay value, and leaving SP in the dust?"


I'm frustrated as a poet ( ) when kickin' games come out, only to have really bad SP replay value. Using scripted events to the extrem just to tell a crummy story. And relying on MP to give it some replay value.

I used to play MP, but I soon saw that it doesn't work. There are three types of online gamers:

1: The Cheaters. They cracked the game as to give them uber abilities.

2: The Bullies. Though not really Cheaters, they use their skills to pick on newbies.

3: No Brains. These guys never learn from their mistakes. Always doing the same thing, never swaying. Although I admire their determination to nail me with a Rail Gun from the same spot, it becomes very very very very boreing really really really quick.

So to this end, I still think the AI is better. So far, these games have great SP replay value.

AvP:GE (Get the Avp launcher, and play as any specie on any level, and AvP Level Tweaker to add Jetpack and Grappling hook to all SP level to play on the ALIEN levels as well.)

Quake III/Team Arena
Civ (1,2,3)
Morrowind/Tribunal
Total Annihilation/CC

[FrustratedPoet]

Originally posted by Thrawn05

1: The Cheaters. They cracked the game as to give them uber abilities.

2: The Bullies. Though not really Cheaters, they use their skills to pick on newbies.

3: No Brains. These guys never learn from their mistakes. Always doing the same thing, never swaying. Although I admire their determination to nail me with a Rail Gun from the same spot, it becomes very very very very boreing really really really quick.

I agree with that, but you missed out the most important group:

4. Your Friends. Either from other places on the 'net (e.g. Apolyton) or from real life. These are the only people worth playing IMHO. If you have a group of friends who you can play with regularly then MP is amazing.

[Thrawn05]

Originally posted by FrustratedPoet


I agree with that, but you missed out the most important group:

4. Your Friends. Either from other places on the 'net (e.g. Apolyton) or from real life. These are the only people worth playing IMHO. If you have a group of friends who you can play with regularly then MP is amazing.

Well, my prob there is that they are all consol fanatics. So I'm at a lost. Still, I get more fun from busting BOTs in Q3 then busting No Brainers on MP.

[aaglo]

Originally posted by MariOne
Hey!
SQUONK!
A Trick of the Tail quote!
I thought you were younger...
(and the horses and men were the King's, not yours...)

Hmmm... how does my age relate to my quote...

And in the end you missed the point... I am king... so... they're infact my horses... AmIOnANeverendingRoadHere?

[War4ever]

in this day and age, a game which has multiplayer aspirations, should be included in the origional release... pure and simple

[Mr. President]

I used to play WarCraft II with my best friend. I also like multi-player Nintendo games. Magic: the Gathering can also work with several people, provided they all play nice.

Other than that, multiplayer is useless and evil and I will have none of it in my house.

[DrSpike]

I'd like to come at this from a slightly different angle. Most games have MP capability, because it is expected these days........it makes another good thing to put on the box. But because companies know that the SP market dwarfs the MP market outside of a minority of games (usually FPS, some RTS) so they often leave the MP product not as polished as it might be. Now I am not just talking about civ3, though my point certainly applies there, but several others games I have bought recently.

In principle, I am with the guys who argue that there should be one release, and the expansions with MP are gimmicks to make more cash, but as someone who values MP a lot (more than the average gamer) I do begin to wonder whether paying separately might, in general, lead to better MP products. Don't ask me where civ3 fits in with that theory though.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Thrawn05

I used to play MP, but I soon saw that it doesn't work. There are three types of online gamers:

1: The Cheaters. They cracked the game as to give them uber abilities.

2: The Bullies. Though not really Cheaters, they use their skills to pick on newbies.

3: No Brains. These guys never learn from their mistakes. Always doing the same thing, never swaying. Although I admire their determination to nail me with a Rail Gun from the same spot, it becomes very very very very boreing really really really quick.

This is partly fair, but partly misleading. Due to the fact that it does contain some truth part of the cost of setting yourself up to play a MP game is in finding a circle of people to play with. This is usually possible however, and when MP works, man it kills SP on every issue.

[axi]

I never play MP. Should I get a discount?

[Urban Ranger]

I don't know why MP is expected these days. I don't get any MP with all these RPG's yet I didn't get any discounts.

I much rather they develop competent AIs that don't cheat - okay, cheat as little as possible - instead of tagging on MP.

[Thrawn05]

Originally posted by DrSpike
when MP works, man it kills SP on every issue.

"when "

That's the problem. MP NEVER works, and WILL never work. Ever.

Originally posted by DrSpike
so they often leave the MP product not as polished as it might be.

I'm hope you are actualy saying that MP is not polished while SP is? Because that is a total lie. Look at AvP2, they make a crummy SP experience, but polish up MP so as to add Replay value. And if you've read my posts, I've made mention that Replay value (via SP) is the most important to me when picking a game.

HOWEVER, that statement does hold some truth when you are dealing with total MP oriented games like Quake3. At least there the bots give me SP replay value (and GTKRadiant allows me to make my own levels ).

[Thrawn05]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
I much rather they develop competent AIs that don't cheat - okay, cheat as little as possible - instead of tagging on MP.

Unfortunatly, there is this little tiny thing called profit. Gaming companies would spend less money by taging on generic MP code and call it replay value, then to take the time to make a decent AI. Few companies have not followed this path, one being Rebellion.

After looking at the AI code in the released code of AvP GE, granted, the AI does cheat, but only when not in the same "cell" as the player (Far AI), at which point they behave a different (Local AI). For example, if I play as an AL|EN in a level filled with marines, and I pass by a few marines and go up a pipe or somplace, the marines will eventualy be in the same cell as I am. They followed me. Now they switch to Local AI and act like they can't see me because I busted all the lights.

What I worked on a little (all I did really was search for a few bugs they wanted me to look for and fix up the text and add comments when needed), was a generic AI code that documents mistakes it makes. It's not some miracle learning AI, it would... say, learn not to charge the player head on, seeing that it's odds of "living" are low. It won't the AI from trying though.

I have one of my friends applying this to the AI code in AvPGE (since it's really the only game we have that has released source code and we all have). Perhaps we can ship this over to Rebellion and let them have some fun. Fun times ahead.

[Dis]

I do like some single player games. But recently I realized what a better experience multiplayer is (if you find the right people). I found this out with Neverwinter Nights.

[Jon Miller]

I mostly want to play mulitplayer now (And only play single player when I can not get a multiplayer game going )

Jon Miller

[pg]

Originally posted by Thrawn05
That's the problem. MP NEVER works, and WILL never work. Ever.

you must have been 'owned' one too many times or something. i never have problems with the people i play with(bit more on that later). in my experience multiplayer totally obliterates single player on every level. even great single player games are 10x better when played multiplayer like serious sam, doom2, neverwinter nights, diablo2, warcraft3, etc. i seriously don't think there is a single player game that could not be made better with well designed multiplayer(which is obviously key). even games like morrowind could benefit greatly from multiplayer.

multiplayer games are fundamentally stronger in their basics for 3 reasons i can think of(i'm sure there are many more).

1. you can replace shitty ai w/ humans
2. multiplayer is a social experience, and even us schizoids appreciate some human interaction
3. much greater replay value because once you toss humans into the mix anything can happen

most single player games bore me after all the multiplayer i've done. i know most people in multiplayer games today seem like asshats, jerks and white jihadists(it really wasn't always this bad you know) but i really haven't had that many problems. if you spend the time to actually get to know people even playing with the biggest lamers can be a fun experience. personally some of my foundest memories are playing against cheaters, a-holes, or people with a personal gruge against me. you just have to find something fun to do with them! bettering cheaters without cheating, getting a-holes banned, or making the people out to get you look like total idiots to the other people playing with you are multiplayer dynamics i'd hate to do away with. multiplayer is tough at first but if you keep at it you'll never want to settle for single player ever again i promise.

[pg]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
I much rather they develop competent AIs that don't cheat - okay, cheat as little as possible - instead of tagging on MP.

do you really think that'd make the ai that much better?. as sad as this is, ai hasn't really improved that much since the early 90s? the average ai today is much better overall but but there are quite a few old games with ai just about as good as anything out today.

[Thrawn05]

PG, with all due respect, but what you said there is just garbage.

Perhaps you didn't read the three classes of MP players. It's boring! No one ever does anything new. It's always the same deal. No replay value there.

Example 1

I tried Totaly Annihilation a few times on MP, and EVERYTIME everyone played at Arm, so they can churn out Flash tanks. At least the AI tries somthing new everytime.

Example 2

I played AvPGE online quit a few times, and let me tell you, EVERYONE plays as AL|ENS. So in the end after about 2 minutes of AL|ENS v. Marines the marines leave and we are stuck with a game full of AL|ENS. I think the longest an AvP game went for me was 5 minutes.

Example 3

Jedi Knight, great game... but half of the palyers mine. As a result, everyone else camps. I rather be playing SP levels backwards.

Example 4

Quake III, most online games are just pure servers with 3 or 4 Nightmare Bots. And when I do find people, they are usualy on the other side of the world, and as a result, the lag between pressing the mouse button and the gun actualy fireing is too long to be of any use. At least the SP bots are fun.

Example 5

XvT, s****y Net code, enough said. Also, some found a bug that would hang your computer. What they did is since you can't leave the game unless everyone else does, they would just shut down their computer, causing you to be stuck, and having to restart yourself.

Example 6

Rebellion, the game takes too long to enjoy online, but not for most poeple.

Example 7

Outlaws, fun game, but everyone runs for the machine gun, and some cracked it so they can run around with it in MP.

Example 8

Force Commander, similar to TA. Everyone rushed AT-ATs with AT-ST. No fun.

As you can see, MP HAS NO REPLAY VALUE!!!! It's junk code to serve college boys that have T4 connections. (And BTW, they are usaly too stupid to be able to host games for us dial-up and cable users).

[Dis]

well those games suck.

play better games

[CapitanGarlic]

I tend to look for a good single-player experience more than anything else -- I have a crap connection, so MP is simply impossible. Not to say I don't enjoy MP, because I certainly do (for most games), I just can't get to it regularly.

[mrboo123]

I suck at MP, I got SOME wins but, I usally lose BAD! My record (from memroy) from Starcaft was 4-68-3! (W-L-D) So I look for games like civ3, sim games, or sport games for fun.

[Thrawn05]

Originally posted by Dissident
well those games suck.

play better games

Those games rock in SP.

They just happen to have MP as well.

[DrSpike]

Thrawn: It is a shame MP doesn't work for you, but the reasons you write it off puzzle me. You seem like a reasonable competent computer user so I don't see why you attempt to play FPS games on servers that are so far away that lag is inevitable. Out of the games you mentioned I have played a lot of Quake3.....and every country has some good servers you can use if you take the time to find them. I also used to play a lot of TA......what you say is hyperbole, you can always find games that ban unbalanced units. Besides as I posted before part of the solution to successful MP gaming is finding a community of players that you like and can trust. Just because you have failed thus far in this you should not conclude it is impossible.

I like a lot of SP games, but when MP works it it so much better it is untrue, in any games where SP relies on AI even more so.

[War4ever]

for tbs, SP works very well just for time constraints.....but i like it beter in mp

i think like everything, there are exceptions to all rules, and all rules are meant to be bent...

i will take human over computer everytime...

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by pg
do you really think that'd make the ai that much better?. as sad as this is, ai hasn't really improved that much since the early 90s? the average ai today is much better overall but but there are quite a few old games with ai just about as good as anything out today.

That's because they keep reinventing the wheel for every new game. All the AI's I have seen run on some kind of expert (rule-based) system. That means if the programmer sucks at the game, he can't devise good rules, resulting in sucky AI. What they need are heuristic algorithms.

[War4ever]

or good programming

[pg]

Originally posted by Thrawn05
PG, with all due respect, but what you said there is just garbage.

Perhaps you didn't read the three classes of MP players. It's boring! No one ever does anything new. It's always the same deal. No replay value there.

you must be joking when you say multi is repetitive and boring compared to single player! ai is much more limited in it's actions than even the worst human players.

just gonna to reply to a few of these but they are basically bad games or problems that are easily solved.

Example 2

I played AvPGE online quit a few times, and let me tell you, EVERYONE plays as AL|ENS. So in the end after about 2 minutes of AL|ENS v. Marines the marines leave and we are stuck with a game full of AL|ENS. I think the longest an AvP game went for me was 5 minutes.

this game is notorious for being unbalanced. the aliens are really the only race worth playing if you want to have the best chance at winning. why couldn't you just play aliens too?

Example 4

Quake III, most online games are just pure servers with 3 or 4 Nightmare Bots. And when I do find people, they are usualy on the other side of the world, and as a result, the lag between pressing the mouse button and the gun actualy fireing is too long to be of any use. At least the SP bots are fun.

this makes me think you can't handle losing or just clueless when it comes to multiplayer. there are probably 20 servers at minimum within 100ms(aka 100 ping) of you as long as you are in europe/north america(which i assume you are). you have to find a server good players frequent to really have the most fun in q3(it shouldn't be too hard to do that).

heh, lag isn't really that bad as long as you are under 200ms. i used to play doom/q1 with 400ms on the old style netcode where you ice skated(both movement and aim was lagged unlike today where only aim is lagged) because there was no client prediction unlike the current games(q3, ut2k3, cs). up to a few months ago i was playing games online via 26.4k modem and doing fine. skill makes up for ping.

again you boggle my mind... bots more fun than humans? who are you playing against? you should try actually looking for some decent servers with a nice community of regulars. osp or cpma servers are usually some of the better ones.

As you can see, MP HAS NO REPLAY VALUE!!!! It's junk code to serve college boys that have T4 connections. (And BTW, they are usaly too stupid to be able to host games for us dial-up and cable users).

cable/dsl is usually on par or better than most college connections, and you wouldn't want 'college boys' hosting anyways because it's not as good as a real server for them or other players. again, i really hope you aren't serious about multi having no replay value as this is obviously false!

this is really all i wanted to say though - i must be a bully to actually like multi...

2: The Bullies. Though not really Cheaters, they use their skills to pick on newbies.

...which makes you a no brain. what do you really dislike about multiplayer games? and please tell the truth this time!