Singleplayer/Multiplayer thoughts... - Page 2

Phil_de_geezer · January 2, 2003, 20:36

Total annihilation is IMHO a fairly poor multiplyer game... the fact that games require "no commander rush" (no com rush) illustrates that it is severely unbalanced.

Some games are suited to multiplayer and others are not. In creating a single player game the programmers can make it highly unbalanced and still produce a fun sp game. However when humans play it they are obviously going to use those unbalanced units.

My point is that to have fun in multiplayer you need to play a balanced game and it is helpful to play with people you know. I personaly play Starcraft online, which i have found to be excellently balanced, although the transition from sp to mp is tough, you just need to stick with it.

CapitanGarlic · January 3, 2003, 01:44

Favorite MP game thus far: Team Fortress Classic. Anyone else like it?

Sarxis · January 3, 2003, 05:25

MP games and online forums are the extent of my social relations.

DrSpike · January 3, 2003, 07:23

Quote:

Originally posted by CapitanGarlic
Favorite MP game thus far: Team Fortress Classic. Anyone else like it?

In my undergrad days we used to play this on our hall LAN with like 12 players or sometimes even more. It was awesome......only FPS I have enjoyed more MP is Quake 3, which I now play online as I have dsl.

pg · January 3, 2003, 14:24

qwtf is my all time favorite class based team mod. it requires so much teamwork at the higher lvls of play as each person plays a very specialized class yet in public servers it's great fun. a skilled individual can make a huge difference though too which is great because games where you are required to work as a team to win are lame.

people still play qwtf! there are a few servers over in north america(which are almost always full of players) and probably a few down under(australia), and i think the eu qwtf community is still going strong but i'm not sure. if you were really a hardcore qwtfer you could probably get in a eu clan if your connection was good enough i know more than a few usa players who ping 80-150 to uk/northern europe(the only reason i mention this is because 80-150 is actually still competitive in qw unlike in newer games like q3/ut2k3). the only downside to north america is clanning is pretty much dead, so you can't play matches w/ a clan here. playing on public servers is still fun though. i could paste the the qwtf server ips here along with other info(i think i know where you might be able to dl q1

).

DrSpike · January 3, 2003, 14:42

Hehe for FPS I am hardcore Quake3, either vanilla or some promode when the mood takes me. I get a constant 40 ping on good UK servers like Jolt, Claranet, and Demon.

But the Team Fortress days are very fondly remembered. The reason it worked so well is that it is much more fun when you sneak up behind the annoying sniper and take him out when he is a good mate of yours.

Of course, some people think playing with AI is far more rewarding.

pg · January 3, 2003, 14:47

ahh, you play cpma too?

with all the nifty physics on, etc? q3 cpma is my 2nd fav after qw(which is where cpma stole bunny hopping from!).

DrSpike · January 3, 2003, 14:52

Yeah for a while there was talk about promode being the basis for a quake4........I just love the amount of control you have with the nifty physics......some truly mind-blowing feats are possible. Haven't heard any rumours about Quake4 for ages now, but I guess it doesn't matter that much with Quake3 still going strong.

Sava · January 4, 2003, 10:52

I used to play a lot of Counter-Strike... I was involved in clans and stuff. Even played in CAL-I... anyways, I'm not big on MP for strategy games unless there's a service, like battle.net.

DrSpike · January 4, 2003, 10:56

I think Counterstrike is only fun if you have a clan....because general games are too chaotic and cooperation is critical for a team to function well.

pg · January 4, 2003, 10:57

i wish they based q4 off something like cpma. frankly, i think the community can make a better fps than most companies. not because we are better designers/etc but the players have gameplay as their #1 priority and thus don't have to dilute gameplay for other things. fps gaming peaked at q1 imo(if you weren't playing online at that time it'll be hard to understand, it was like a golden age compared to today). q2 is a decent game, and q3 is even better, then with q3 cpma things are about getting near parity with qw(if not surpassing it).

it doesn't really matter what happens in the future though, if better fps games aren't released i'll still play qw/cpma/doom(better co-op than serious sam!). qw is like 6yrs old and there is a big lan going on in sweden right now. games never die only the players do(case in point is that you can still play doom online vs ppl).

sorry to go off but i do that whenever someone on poly actually is more than clueless on fps stuff which is my main thing, not civ.

DrSpike · January 4, 2003, 11:05

Hehe don't worry I understand passion about quake.

We used to play quake1 on the huge LAN in my halls of residence when I was an undergrad (this was before TF)......though I never played it online. I have to say I don't see why people play quake1 today.......quake3 has all the gameplay of quake1 and other advantages besides.

pg · January 4, 2003, 11:47

have you seen anyone play qw recently(
dl the ~21mb fde movie to seen how qw is today, or high quality fde2! )? you probably know all of this but in case you don't... there is a big difference between netquake(which is probably what you played), and qw. netquake is the original out of the box q1 with shitty netcode and bad physics. qw is the tweaked up online version with netcode better than q3(it runs at 72 server fps compared to q3's 20, 1sec / 20 = 50ms of inherent lag compared to qw's 13ms), and some other minor differences. however, these changes make a big impact on the game itself, i'd say the gameplay is much better because of them. i know i sound like a fanatic, and i am but i've played tons of fps games intensely and the one i always come back and never get bored with is qw.

of course the best part about qw is it's open sourced now by id unlike q3. there several new clients, and servers in development along with mods still under active development. sort of boggles the mind considering how old qw is. even osp for q3 isn't going strong anymore but qw's competition mod is. to me, and everyone else who still plays qw - it's all about the gameplay - we think it's the best and accept nothing less.

of course i still play others good games like q3 cpma and anything else that is good but i'm picky.

cs is mainly based on q1/qw with some lines of q2's code btw. which is really a big reason for it's popularity, it'll run on a slow pc and a modem and still be fun. try that with q3/ut2k3.

q1 propoganda follows...

don't remember it looking quite like this?

how can you beat a game with a built in mp3 player?

dm3, the abandoned base!

e1m2, castle of the damned!

dm6, the dark zone!

dm2, claustrophobolis

dm4, the bad place

more screenshots

DrSpike · January 4, 2003, 11:53

Ah the Bad Place......brings back memories.

I have played a little qw, and my impression was that q3 was better. However I accept the open source argument......and I know a lot of people that are qw fanatics even now.

Back to promode being a template for Quake4. Have you kept up with the rumours recently? It must be almost a year ago there was a lot of talk about this......I guess it was all just speculation.

pg · January 4, 2003, 12:45

yeah, i think it was all rumor. i am hopeful though that they might try some more radical gameplay ideas(eg bunny hopping, no railgun!). remember promode is based on a john carmack quote as follows...

"If there were a small set of professional rules that I agree with in theory but have chosen not to pursue because they conflict with more common play, then an official "pro mode" might make sense. Any other suggestions along those lines?"

he even understands us, the hardcore gamers! yet, he readily admits there are conflicts between casual/hardcore. even more amazing is the new id animator fredo who is in a quake clan, and you can talk to him on irc once in a blue moon(old id members used to be in clans/use irc but only fredo does this now). fredo is also responsible for the pro-id map remakes like pro-q3dm6/etc which he made with help from "progamers" like makaveli, c3, etc. there is hope for id to revivatilize and reinvent deathmatch gameplay!

q3 was supposed to the ultimate multiplayer game, but it's really not. many things were sacrificed for commercial viability which is not wrong but obviously something i'm not going to be 100% satisifed with. so i have qw/q3 cpma instead. i still have to dl the cpma v 1.0 update. if id would have accomplished everything they wanted to with q3 it would have been much better. carmack was originally suppoed to write the bot ai! can you imagine that? heh, if you look in the q3 code it's quite nasty because it was rushed at the last second. again, there is something hopeful here, there are bits of code that showed they were going to try to make the bots bunny hop among other advanced and non-newbie things. they also skimped on the netcode which is worse than q2/q3 overall but is great for broadband/lan with 50ms or lower.

DrSpike · January 4, 2003, 13:10

I don't dislike vanilla as much as some, though if pushed I would admit I think promode is the superior game. But vanilla is a good compromise........it is very easy to just pick up and play but still hard to play well.

I agree it seems unlikely now that id will release a variant of promode as quake4, because it is aimed at experienced players. Having said that there is a huge wealth of present quake players that would be able to adapt very easily......so perhaps it wouldn't be a complete bust.

DrSpike · January 4, 2003, 13:13

Hey since you are quakehead tell me how long it takes you to recover after a break. I always recover quickly after a weekend away, or a couple of days with no play due to work. However I didn't play for 2 weeks over Christmas and now I have played painfully badly for 4 days straight, even though I am playing more than I would usually have time for.

pg · January 5, 2003, 12:47

i haven't played seriously online since i was handicapped with my modem. it's not that modems are all bad but my phone lines here die out at 26.4k.

the bad ping(250ms is my lowest) coupled with a 2.8k rate really kills gaming. if i had a decent sub-200ms 56k connection i'd be fine.

about your question - i'm a very serious gamer(i used to play 4hrs+ a day for 3 yrs). i still play once in a while online with 250-350 ping. i usually get frustrated though and give up because i know i'm losing due to my connection. the only reason i keep coming back is it's so fun to actually beat lpbs(especially duel) with this ping then see then go psycho.

i recover in a few hours of continual playing(with over 200ms). over the years i've had lots of different connections. i've spent a majority of my time hpb(hpb is over 120ms in qw), but i've had a few months playing as lpb, and lan. i've also had experience with the old netcode(netquake/doom style), and new netcode(q3/qw style). my recovery rate depends on my connection/ping, and style of netcode. my brain needs time to adjust to my lag mostly, but i do recover faster on new style netcode simply because it's so much easier. on lan i'm good in 5mins regardless of netcode type but not at my peak. to reach my real peak i need a few weeks of continual play at a consistant ping - then i can do what i call live the game(read: zen like playing state, the subconscious takes over!). i define my peak as hitting every shot that can be expected and hitting all the trick jumping the first try, and every try. when i'm at a lan or have a lpb connection quaking is my life and religion.

when i first started i synched up to my ping almost instantly. as time went by and i had to adjust to different styles of netcode, played different games, had different connections my recovery time has gone up gradually. maybe it's just because i'm getting older though.

DrSpike · January 5, 2003, 13:21

Hehe, well things picked up a bit today (day 5)....but not to the level I would have hoped. Work starts tomorrow so I wanted to be back on form by tonight.

I understand the Zen comment......when all is well the human mind can do amazing things......and hit shots without even knowing where the opposing player is. Interestingly scientists have 'identified' for physical sportspeople what being in the zone means for neurological activity, and it turns out good quake players exhibit the same neurological symtpoms.

But when it goes badly it's like golf........try all you want, when you play badly there sod all you can do about it.