Atrocities! (Why does nobody like me?)

Alinestra Covelia · August 16, 2000, 17:03

I'm playing SMAX and I've successfully repealed the Atrocity prohibition. It couldn't have come at a better time, as I've just finished my Cloning Vats SP and nerve staplings are on the house! (And the only way I can really keep order.)

However, nearly all the other factions have terminated pacts with me and one even went so far as to declare outright vendetta with me. What's going on? Are they protesting the atrocities despite the lifting of the ban, or are they just naturally jealous now that my MightGraph rating has gone orbital?

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Machines: outthinkable YES outfightable NO.
Men: outfightable YES outthinkable NO.
Allie Cove: outfallable INEVITABLY

Homepage http://www.enixine.dabsol.co.uk (Shared)

Jasonian · August 16, 2000, 17:53

Probably just because of the power graph. The AI factions tend to go nuts when a faction has a definite lead over them.

If the Charter is repealed, I wouldn't be suprised if they are stapling their own citizens as well! Hey, why not?

Kinjiru · August 16, 2000, 18:58

I like you Alinestra...

Fitz · August 16, 2000, 19:23

I love you! *bats eyes at Allie*

I didn't know you played D&D.

Um, to stay on topic, did you use any atrocities against any other factions, or were they all internal?
[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited August 16, 2000).]

Adam_Smith · August 16, 2000, 20:10

It's your power.

Alinestra Covelia · August 17, 2000, 13:58

Come to think of it, I think I might have then nerve stapled some citizens in bases that didn't look like my faction's but were mine.

If that doesn't make sense, then here's the situation. I captured a few enemy bases, and they remained in the style of the (for argument's sake) Burbblechuff faction, not my faction.

After a while (I think it's about 50 years or so) that changes and the bases become mine in looks as well as allegiance. Also I noticed that that means that in the "Psyche" window for the base, the "captured base -1" penalty doesn't appear.

However, if I nerve staple a captured base AND THE ATROCITIES ARE LEGAL, then does this still make the original owner hate me?

Anyhow, this question is all a bit academic now, because I've just built the Telepathic Matrix. Now *there's* a psychotically powerful Secret Project if ever I've seen one!

Fitz: D&D, eh? Where did you hear about that?

If you're interested, there's an entire chunk of webpage about my D&D world. It's right here.

Kinjiru and Fitz: Who says dictators can't be lovers? Eh? Eh? Ha!

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Machines: outthinkable YES outfightable NO.
Men: outfightable YES outthinkable NO.
Allie Cove: outfallable INEVITABLY

Homepage http://www.enixine.dabsol.co.uk (Shared)

Tau Ceti · August 17, 2000, 15:39

Your latest theory is correct. Nerve Stapling a captured base makes the original owner hate you forever, regardless of UN Charter status. Actually, so does committing any other atrocity on them; it only means your standing with other factions is not damaged.

Simpson II · August 17, 2000, 17:26

It sounds like a combination of the two problems mentioned.

If you nerve-staple a captured base, the former owner will inevitably declare Vendetta - even if they are a submissive.

Also, the diplomacy works so that while the two top factions are relatively even in power, people tend to pact with one or the other, forming big power blocks. However, when one player becomes twice as powerful as anyone else, everyone gangs up on them, while trying to form pacts with number 2.

I guess that you had both problems at once, with various people.

by the way; D&D WtF?!?! Where do you go mushroom picking? I want to drop by there some time.

Alinestra Covelia · August 18, 2000, 03:22

Thanks all for clearing this up. You might (?) be happy to know that I solved the DataTech problem by gassing them too.

So that's nice.

SimpsonII: for my mushroom patch, check out this page!

Neptunus · August 19, 2000, 18:49

Allie Cove... Keep on nerve-stapling. If you're ahead, why bother if nobody likes you (in the game of course)

Even if you never do any atrocities and stay noble until the end, sooner or later all will turn against you...

By the way... which faction are you playing in SMAX (if not the Hive again) ?

Alinestra Covelia · August 20, 2000, 04:29

Neptunus: Well, I'm going to have to be very boring and say that I am, indeed, playing as Everybody's Favorite Chairman again. All the enemy factions are SMAX factions, though, and my own faction replaces the Pirates.

If it's of interest to anybody, the faction I found to put up the most fight (even despite my generous outlay of Nerve Gas Pods) were the Manifold Caretakers.

Annoyingly, in the end, it was the Cybernetic Consciousness who took the credit for their demise. I had driven the Caretakers to found a desperate last base over on "Dragon Continent" (westernmost continent on normal map of Planet) and the Consciousness just flattened them.

In retaliation, I probed the Caretaker leader H'minee back out of Alpha Prime base, and lo and behold, Aka Zeta1 declared vendetta on me. Not only that, but H'minee herself told me I would burn for all my atrocities against her people. This, when she had NO bases to call her own!

The very next turn, without me having to do anything, H'minee was eradicated.

Evidently, there are faction leaders whose hatred of me will go farther than logic (or self-preservation) dictates...

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Machines: outthinkable YES outfightable NO.
Men: outfightable YES outthinkable NO.
Allie Cove: outfallable INEVITABLY

Homepage http://www.enixine.dabsol.co.uk (Shared)

Neptunus · August 20, 2000, 04:51

It's good to see some people have really steady values

I just wonder... if you probe free a captured leader then ONE base is automatically created somewhere in the map for his/her faction. Strange that H'minee was eradicated having no bases...

In my case the greatest satisfaction in the game is when you leave your opponent so exhausted after a blitzkrieg that is forced to surrender and then you ask for ALL of his/her bases and he/she gives them to you. Of course that faction is eradicated the next turn. This happens quite often and in most cases two or three faction are eradicated this way.

By the way, for me, the most hatred faction is the Usurpers...

Adam_Smith · August 20, 2000, 10:34

Is this in SMACX or SMAC. I tried to get a base from one of my subs in SMACX and she didn't give it to me. I don't know if I'd want to take them all anyway. I'm usually trying to keep my subs alive.

Neptunus · August 20, 2000, 16:14

Adam_Smith it happens to both SMAC and SMAX. And it's easier than you may thing. For example Deirdre is left with three bases. I ask for all three of them, one after the other, which she gives. This is also very easy for Morgan, Roze, Aki and Lal. It also happened with Miriam (with her 4 last bases), Yang and Santiago. But the way it happens looks more rather a bug of the game than a free decision from a surrendered (and exhausted) opponent...

However, after a long peaceful game, with just a few fierce years of fighting (usually against all factions), I enjoy leaving just ONE base from ONE opponent (usually the most tough to beat during the game) as eternal punishment. Then I may transcend in peace...

Alinestra Covelia · August 20, 2000, 17:04

I have never had a situation arise where, upon freeing a captured faction leader, a base is instantaneously created and/or handed over to that leader.

In each case, I've had to give a base to that leader. In this particular case, Caretaker Guardian H'minee declared vendetta on me the moment I set her free, so she never got any bases and was presumably very quickly dealt with by the Probe Team I sent out to her.

Bloody squid-heads... can't tell when a monkey-evolved biped is being nice to them.

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Machines: outthinkable YES outfightable NO.
Men: outfightable YES outthinkable NO.
Allie Cove: outfallable INEVITABLY

Homepage http://www.enixine.dabsol.co.uk (Shared)

Mars_Col_44 · August 23, 2000, 10:43

Alinestra,
I also noticed that these atrocities have lasting effects.
When I gassed Santiago's troops, it was a desperate situation (they had fusion when I did not). At the same time, I slapped some virus on Morgan since he kept invading. Now, they won't forget, won't surrender, even tho they will eventually lose. And these atrocities occurred so many years ago!
Geez. And Santiago was the one who suggested that we drop UN sanctions! Now we have reinstated the charter, and they won't forget. Man!

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Service means Citizenship. I'm doing my part!

Adam_Smith · August 23, 2000, 10:52

I tried to get some free bases from my subs in SMACX v.2, because of the discussion here. I was Cha Dawn, and I forced submission from both Lal and Morgan early in the game. Neither one of them would give me any bases for free even after I threatened them. Lal sold me a newly founded base for 36 ec. I bought it, because it was a good deal. It was closer to my HQ than it was to his. Morgan wanted 200+ for his base. It was closer to his HQ than mine. I didn't buy it.

At any rate, I never tried to get bases from my subs before. Even if you can't get them for free it's a good idea to get some strategic bases for cheap. Thanx to bringing it to my attention.

Alinestra Covelia · August 23, 2000, 17:56

Alternatively, you could just do what I sometimes do (usually to factions I trust and don't intend to betray):

Trade a reasonably nice sea or land base on the fringes of your empire, for a rival base near a trouble spot (either present, or planned

). Pile on the defences in that base, then launch an all out attack from there.

The enemy factions don't seem to count strategic locations as a major factor in a trade, so giving them a series of easily-isolatable bases can prove helpful. At the first sign of insurrection, recapturing those bases can be very easy indeed.

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Machines: outthinkable YES outfightable NO.
Men: outfightable YES outthinkable NO.
Allie Cove: outfallable INEVITABLY

Homepage http://www.enixine.dabsol.co.uk (Shared)

Helium Pond · August 24, 2000, 14:04

Re: freeing leaders. In my current SMAX game, I freed Domai from Roze. I'd been reading this thread, so I looked around the map, searching for a new Drone city somewhere. I didn't see one.

So I gave him a base, and as soon as I did, I noticed a small Drone base way up near the north pole, in an area I hadn't explored before. It seems probable that his base had been there all along, but since I hadn't contacted him over the comm, he hadn't shared his map data with me, so I couldn't see it.

So, just some more data for the puzzle. By the way, I later Pacted with Roze, but was unable to get Domai to call off his own Vendetta against her. Seems like freed leaders have an unbreakable Vendetta against the faction that eradicated them. Can anyone else confirm this?

Sinapus · August 24, 2000, 22:14

When you free a faction leader, they get a pod or two and some units and get set up somewhere on the map. Sometimes it takes them a few turns to find a spot they like and set up a new base.

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|"Anything I can do to help?" "Um. Short of dying? No, can't think of a |
| thing." -Morden, Vir. 'Interludes and Examinations' -Babylon 5

Alinestra Covelia · August 26, 2000, 17:18

It is possible (this just struck me) that in my game, H'minee's base materialized somewhere near the Cybernetic Consciousness, who then crushed them the next turn.

Maybe I just never got to see it.

This is strange, because I thought that satellites revealed all bases to you anyway...

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Machines: outthinkable YES outfightable NO.
Men: outfightable YES outthinkable NO.
Allie Cove: outfallable INEVITABLY

Homepage http://www.enixine.dabsol.co.uk (Shared)

Qualicide · September 2, 2000, 14:38

no PBs? we all know thats the REAL reason for repealing the charter dont we?

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http://thangorodrim.angband.org/angband.html (alright meybe i didnt make it)

Alinestra Covelia · September 7, 2000, 02:48

Actually, I think PBs still make people hate you more. They just don't automatically all vendetta on you if the UN Charter is revoked. Certainly the factino you nuke hates you forever, and Planet seems to go berserk on you.

Anybody prove this either way?

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Machines: outthinkable YES outfightable NO.
Men: outfightable YES outthinkable NO.
Allie Cove: outfallable INEVITABLY

Homepage http://www.enixine.dabsol.co.uk (Shared)

Adam_Smith · September 7, 2000, 10:09

I've only nuked a faction without repealing the UN Charter for fun. That is, I didn't think I had a chance in the game anymore so I just nuked someone and quit. I too would be interested to know if anyone has done this and won. I'm not talking about when you already have everything set to win, but at a time when the other factions are still contenders.

stuntman19 · September 7, 2000, 10:55

In one of my first games of regular smac I was the Hive and Lal was about twice as strong as i was. I had the PK's infiltrated and he was about to throw up a bunch of ODP's so I launched a wave of 4 PB's at all his major cities on the same turn. It was pretty fun as I had a treaty with PK's and several pacts with others and U.N. Charter was still in place so my integrity went to wicked,everyone turned on me and natives went berzurk. I ended up winning by conquest some years later, launching several more PB's. The biggest problem was handling the natives as eco-damage and global warming went crazy. Sorry to say I didn't save any of the files. Sorta wish I was as new to the game again as the AI never gets a big lead anymore.

Qualicide · September 7, 2000, 15:01

i just nuke people for the fun of it...

Fitz · September 7, 2000, 18:20

I bet you do Qual.

I've nuked factions several times and gone on to win the game, but usually it's a conquest of the few remaining enemy bases the turn after the nukes fly.

There's nothing quite like nuking 50 bases in one turn.

Neptunus · September 8, 2000, 16:11

All this conversation makes me think about a Wonder in that (silly) CtP that eliminates all nukes in the world. That's the only point that CtP is better than SMAC. (And I was wondering all this time ... in what aspect may CtP be better than SMAC)...

Alinestra Covelia · September 9, 2000, 01:50

Eh?

The Nanite Defuser?

No way! It had a stupid power, had absolutely $hite plotline behind it, and was quite obviously the designers sticking something in for the effect and not with due regard to the consequences!

If you have nanite technology, there must be many more things you can think of doing for the good of mankind than just targeting a few specific weapons. What about Jesuslike miracles of turning rocks into bread, or dust into water? How about things like cutting all mineral costs in half?

CtP's programmers weren't interested in making a realistic game, and it shows. They were just interested in making a game for players and not for thinkers. In the end, I am happy that finally people realize what a con CtP is and how lowbrow its gameplay. I was personally scandalized when I saw that Alpha Centauri was considered a mere "copy" of Civ, yet CtP was hailed as a "masterpiece of innovation".

An exercise in name-milking is what it really is.

Innovation, my arse.

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Machines: outthinkable YES outfightable NO.
Men: outfightable YES outthinkable NO.
Allie Cove: outfallable INEVITABLY

Homepage http://www.enixine.dabsol.co.uk (Shared)

Neptunus · September 13, 2000, 18:41

AliCove Correct ! But you don't seem to get my point. Well, my copy of CtP is gathering dust somewhere in my PC room, with the most probable conclusion to become a really nice and practical tray for my coffee mug at the office, ... but my point was actually that I wished there were NO PBs in SMAC.

Using them just for the "cool" animation isn't something to be taken seriously (the animation itself makes me shiver).

Using it to wipe out a big and strong enemy base ... well ... what's more exhilarating than attacking the base with a dozen choppers and just walk in adding one more chunky base to your empire (what a waste if this was gone once and for all).

Using them to demoralize your enemy and force him to surrender... no way, you get all others turn against you...

Using it to put an end to the game... again that's no reason to use them. One can just quit...

So what's so thrilling using PBs ????????