Why English is so difficult to learn...

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by The Vagabond
ranskaldan, would you agree that English suits for computers much more than any other major language?

That's because ASCII is an US invention. If the Euros invented it, it'd be something like Unicode.

[Zero]

every language has its uniqueness... It's really hard to determine which language is superior to another.

Learning another language often helps you think in differently, thats probably why they teach second language in H.S....

anyway back on topic, english is defintely hard. Immigrants often have trouble with syntax.... hell the natives have trouble speaking good english..

[The Vagabond]

UR, you are right about this part. But what I meant was actually the possibility of incorporating the language into user-friendly applications. Simple grammatical forms on a small scale make it so much easier for English!

[Stefu]

English was definitely easier to learn that Swedish or spit-in-other-people's-faces-language they speak in that big country between Poland and Netherlands. Then again, it might have been all saturation.

[ranskaldan]

vagabond:

That's true.

But the same logic would mean that it's even SIMPLER if it were in Chinese, with close to zero grammatical endings and massive dependence on syntax.

But on the other hand, the Chinese script is hopeless. Oh well...

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by ranskaldan
But on the other hand, the Chinese script is hopeless. Oh well...

Well, you've already answered to yourself.

[ranskaldan]

Mmm... there's something wrong in your points, I'm sure.

How are these user-friendly things handled in French or German versions of Windows anyway?

Der/die/das ______ etc etc??

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by ranskaldan
How are these user-friendly things handled in French or German versions of Windows anyway?

In Windows it is relatively easy. But what about some customizable stuff, f.e. as in Civ or SMAC? You have to make an additional effort to account for all those grammar thingies. And yet you'll still end up with a lot of grammar errors.

[Drake Tungsten]

Nothing wrong with it. But it adds nothing to the richness or descriptiveness of English.

I know that I'd rather say "arachnophobia" than "fear of spiders", just like I'd rather say "schadenfreude" than "getting pleasure from the suffering of others". Less words = good. The strength of English is that it so readily incorporates foreign words that effectively express concepts not yet covered by English.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
A couple of problems with English:

1) It was written down early and then went through a major vowel shift. The pronounciation changed but the spelling didn't.

2) About the time it was reaching its final form, Britain was undergoing a series of invations. So the language is an amalgum of German, Danish, Norwegian, Norman French and a dab of Latin.

I find it interesting that there is no Gaelic in the English language. To me, an American, and there is very little difference between the accents of the Welsh, Scottish and lower-class English. They all have more similarities to each other than differences. So why is it that Gaelic has/had no influence on English?

[monolith94]

My thought is the best language for poetry.

[alva]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
A couple of problems with English:

1) It was written down early and then went through a major vowel shift. The pronounciation changed but the spelling didn't.

IMO, that's what makes is less difficult...
Here(belgium&holland) they change the whole thing every 15 years

[FrustratedPoet]

*SHOCK*

*HORROR*

oh my god, it appears that almost everyone thinks that their own native language is the best in world!

who would have thought it?

[alva]

I don't

[Sikander]

I have to disagree with Raskal's contention that English vocabulary isn't useful / doesn't add to literary richness. Having so many synonyms, many of which are known to the educated speaker means that you can add shades of meaning to sentences that have the same meaning in a literal sense. Thus a sentence can be written with words rooted in Germanic, and it will sound simple or old, while writing with words rooted in French or Latin can sound a lot more sophisticated while conveying the same information.

For poetry the extra words help English close the gap on languages which have far fewer sounds (which immensely simplifies rhyming), and additionally help one to achieve the proper meter. Highly inflected languages like Russian have one significant advantage on English in poetry, which is that they can rearrange the order of their words freely without changing the meaning of a sentence. However objects can be difficult to rhyme in general, as you are often left with few choices in endings, so this tends to even out the word order advantage somewhat.

I would rank English as the equal of many languages in poetry, and superior to most in prose for these reasons. But it can be tough to learn, with plenty of irregularites, some difficult sounds (and a lot of sounds), and some fairly complex grammar as your capabilities progress beyond simple sentences and tenses.

[MikeH]

This is tougher without context but I'll give it a go.

"As we were saying"
"While we were saying"

These two are very similar but as we were saying implies that something happened which may or may not have interrupted what we were saying, while implies that it continued throughout what they were saying, or the action that comes next was completed during what was being said.

"Although we were saying"
"Even though we were saying"

Again, very similar to each other, but different to the last two. This time something happens despite what we were saying. First implies that something happened whilst we were trying to explain something. Second implies that whatever happened was actually contrary to what we were saying.

Can't be bothered with doing all the rest.

[Jay Bee]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Spanish only has 200,000 words, 40% of English.

I do not know what sources you used to get that number, but the latest edition of the Royal Academy Dictionary of the Spanish Language lists 481,186 entries (conjugations excluded of course).

Note that the Royal Academy Dictionary is the 'official' one, it only lists words that are common in most Spanish-speaking countries. If you go to countries with strong Amerindian roots (which is to say practically all but Spain and Argentina) you'll hear literally thousands of words nowhere to be found in the Diccionario... yet.


No doubt at all that English is powerful, versatile and straightforward but, in terms of richness and complexity, under what grounds can somebody state that language A is richer than B?

[mindseye]

Sikander is spot-on, all those "extra" words allow the speaker/writer of English to much more precisely select the shade and tint of meaning intended. Fewer words mean less color. And as Mike H pointed out, many of the phrases Ranskaldan quoted do indeed have very different meanings.

For an example of English vocabulary strength, consider: big, large, huge, immense, mammoth, gargantuan, collosal, goliath, gigantic, great, enormous, vast, massive, etc.

Contrast with Chinese, where it seems you can only say big, very big, really big, extremely big, etc - or so I am told by natives who I've asked (they may have been wrong or misunderstood my question).

Of course, in either language you can also use similes, metaphors, literary references, slang, etc. to add additional flavor. However English seems to me to have the advantage in terms of sheer breadth of vocabulary.

[MikeH]

Other languages have a lot ot offer us as well. The classic example being the inuit words for different types of snow that we can't distinguish.

I really like Ja stimmt in German which is a really simple phrase that you can't really translate literally with all it's meaning 'cause it's different.

[Alex]

I don't think that the number of words or the number of synonyms could be a good indication of how strong or weak a language is.

The most important thing is how that specific language can continually absorb new words and how it can fit those new words in the daily use. English is certainly a very good language for this, and an easy one to learn, too, because its grammatical rules are, in its most basic formulation, really friendly.

mindseye: as for the example you've given, I'd say that Portuguese has the same richness... grande, enorme, gigantesco, gargântuo, homérico, imenso, vasto, colossal, monstruoso...

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Ned



I find it interesting that there is no Gaelic in the English language. To me, an American, and there is very little difference between the accents of the Welsh, Scottish and lower-class English. They all have more similarities to each other than differences. So why is it that Gaelic has/had no influence on English?

Because the Celts were kicked out or murdered by the size of the Anglo-Saxon invasion, so there was no mingling of language (or genes for that matter - modern Englishmen are nearly genetically identical to Friesans (Netherlanders, not the cows ) but English and Welsh are very distinct.

When you say accents sound similar, are you refering to their accent when speaking English or Gaelic?

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin


Because the Celts were kicked out or murdered by the size of the Anglo-Saxon invasion, so there was no mingling of language (or genes for that matter - modern Englishmen are nearly genetically identical to Friesans (Netherlanders, not the cows ) but English and Welsh are very distinct.

Yep, the few words that did make it into English from Gaelic did so almost exclusively from Scotland, and much later.

[Combat Ingrid]

If you think English is difficult, try Swedish:

-Far, får får får?
-Får får inte får, får får lamm!

[Bereta_Eder]

english is not hard to learn

they're french only simpler


more precise but lacking in nuances

still childish to greek like most languages really

[Nacht]

Originally posted by MikeH
Other languages have a lot ot offer us as well. The classic example being the inuit words for different types of snow that we can't distinguish.

This is a very stubborn myth.

see http://casino.cchs.usyd.edu.au/csd/m...ulary_hoax.htm for example.

[Bereta_Eder]

80% of "english" words come from greek

get a load of this speech, it only uses greek words (with the exception of articles and prepositions)


The First Speech:
“Kyrie,
I eulogize the archons of the Panethnic Numismatic Thesaurus and the Ecumenical Trapeza for the orthodoxy of their axioms, methods and policies, although there is an episode of cacophony of the Trapeza with Hellas.

With enthusiasm we dialogue and synagonize at the synods of our didymous Organizations in which polymorphous economic ideas and dogmas are analyzed and synthesized.

Our critical problems such as the numismatic plethora generate some agony and melancholy. This phenomenon is characteristic of our epoch. But, to my thesis, we have the dynamism to program therapeutic practices as a prophylaxis from chaos and catastrophe.

In parallel, a panethnic unhypocritical economic synergy and harmonization in ademocratic climate is basic.

I apologize for my eccentric monologue. I emphasize my eucharistia to you Kyrie, to the eugenic and generous American Ethnos and to the organizers and protagonists of this Amphictyony and the gastronomic symposia.”



The Second Speech:
"Kyrie,
It is Zeus' anathema on our epoch for the dynamism of our economies and the heresy of our economic methods and policies that we should agonise between the Scylla of numismatic plethora and the Charybdis of economic anaemia.

It is not my idiosyncrasy to be ironic or sarcastic but my diagnosis would be that politicians are rather cryptoplethorists. Although they emphatically stigmatize numismatic plethora, energize it through their tactics and practices.

Our policies have to be based more on economic and less on political criteria.

Our gnomon has to be a metron between political, strategic and philanthropic scopes. Political magic has always been antieconomic.

In an epoch characterised by monopolies, oligopolies, menopsonies, monopolistic antagonism and polymorphous inelasticities, our policies have to be more orthological. But this should not be metamorphosed into plethorophobia which is endemic among academic economists.

Numismatic symmetry should not antagonize economic acme.

A greater harmonization between the practices of the economic and numismatic archons is basic.

Parallel to this, we have to synchronize and harmonize more and more our economic and numismatic policies panethnically.

These scopes are more practical now, when the prognostics of the political and economic barometer are halcyonic.

The history of our didymous organisations in this sphere has been didactic and their gnostic practices will always be a tonic to the polyonymous and idiomorphous ethnical economics. The genesis of the programmed organisations will dynamize these policies. I sympathise, therefore, with the aposties and the hierarchy of our organisations in their zeal to programme orthodox economic and numismatic policies, although I have some logomachy with them.

I apologize for having tyrannized you with my hellenic phraseology.

In my epilogue, I emphasize my eulogy to the philoxenous autochthons of this cosmopolitan metropolis and my encomium to you, Kyrie, and the stenographers.''

[Bereta_Eder]

thats the guy who did it BTW


Prof. Xenophon Zolotas was a well-known Greek economist. The speeches that follow were given to a foreign audience, at the closing session of the International Bank for Reconstruction and Development, on September 26, 1957 and on October 2, 1959. Prof. Zolotas held the positions of the Governor of the bank of Greece and the Governor of the Funds for Greece, at that time. “I always wished to address this Assembly in Greek, but I realized that it would have been indeed Greek to all present in this room. I found out, however, that I could make my address in Greek which would still be English to everybody. With your permission, Mr. Chairman, I shall do it now, using with the exception of articles and prepositions only Greek words.'”

[MikeH]

If it's 80% of words then why is that such a ponderous speech?

[Bereta_Eder]

He showed off

[Bereta_Eder]

BTW speaking of languages here's a monumental task
(written... funily enough)

It's all Greek to him

Athanasios Anagnostopoulos is compiling the biggest-ever compendium of the Greek language, with the aim of producing a work to match the Oxford English Dictionary, writes Helena Smith

Friday March 1, 2002

In the shadow of the Acropolis, alongside the theatre where the likes of Aeschylus and Sophocles and other ancient playwrights first put on their shows, Athanasios Anagnostopoulos is hard at work.
With his erudite demeanour and wild, wavy white hair, this kindly linguist looks every bit like a modern-day Plato - a fitting resemblance for a man who has set himself the monumental task of compiling the biggest-ever compendium of the Greek language, from before Homeric times until today. In a linguistic odyssey that has taken him back over 3,000 years he has collected more than 50m words.

"Greek may be Europe's oldest continuously spoken language, and the language that gave birth to letters that signified vowels, but it is also surprisingly poorly researched," he says in his neoclassical offices at the foot of Athens' holy hill.

A surprising amount of English words - some 80% - derive from the 24-letter Greek alphabet. But, he explains, "tens of thousands of Greek words" have gone through different stages and acquired different meanings, which in part accounts for the language's supple syntax and extraordinarily rich vocabulary.

"Our goal, now, is to trace the evolution of every single Greek word from its first appearance in a written text, say in the 4th century BC, to the present."

The giant database that he has set out to create - electronically recording the entire corpus of every Greek writer on CD Rom - will not only chart the unbroken continuity of spoken and written Greek but, he says, enhance global understanding of the language's historical course.

In so doing, it will go a long way towards preserving the record of a history that helped form western civilization.

To fulfil this Herculean mission, Anagnostopoulos and his 15-strong team of linguists and philologists have spent the past five years meticulously scanning more than 3m pages of stories, newspaper articles, books and magazines.

Mr Anagnostopoulos, a former Harvard librarian, has spent decades trawling hundreds of libraries, rare book collections and antique bookshops around the country.

So far, over 20,000 works have been logged on 5m digital pages in a project that was an unexpected crowd-puller at the last Frankfurt book fair.

"This," says the eminent Greek writer Vasillis Boutos, "will undoubtedly be the Parthenon of the Greek language ... the biggest library of its kind in the world."

The Greeks' desire to understand their own language has itself fuelled heated debate. Since the creation of the modern Greek state in 1830, differences over whether to pursue a "purist" or common form of the language sparked bloody violence when thousands rioted on the streets.

But Anagnostopoulos, who has the support of the Greek state, is not mincing his words. Unlike every other attempt to catalogue the language, his team intends to chart it from its origins as a syllabic script, Linear B, to today's demotic Greek.

"Homer is considered the teacher of all Greeks, but he in fact drew on more than 600 years of highly developed language," says Anagnostopoulos.

"The distinct feature of this compendium is that we will be embracing the language in its entirety moving from ancient times through the Byzantine period to the folk tradition and modern Greek masters."

Already, Greek buffs and academics have waxed lyrical over the ability the Thesaurus has given them to cross-reference words, and phrases, throughout the ages.

Although far from finished, Anagnostopoulos says the compendium has also facilitated the teaching of modern Greek on schools. "By tapping into a computer and tracing a word language stops being such an abstract thing - in the classroom the thesaurus can be a very powerful tool."

But, more than anything, once the database is completed Anagnostopoulos says modern Greek will finally be able to acquire a comprehensive dictionary along the lines of the Oxford English Dictionary.

"Once we get to the root of our language, by tracing the course of each and every word, we will be able to get a dictionary as well."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/...660424,00.html