should I?

[MagyarCrusader]

I got a hankerin' for creating a Middle Age Europe (and some Middle East) scenario around the 11th century, intended for PBEM play and using the Giga map of Europe. Before I begin, I would like to know if there would be interest in playing the scenario when it's finished. I would prefer to not waste my time if nobody will play when it's done.

[BeBro]

I would say go for it, I think there should be more medieval scns

However, I don´t like gigamaps....

[Valuk]

Yeah, do it! I support the gigamap idea, since it paints an accurate picture of Europe then.
And be sure to include Byzantium !

[Chris 62]

I was thinking about this also Magyar, there isn't a good one for JUST Europe (Bernd's beautiful scaenario is really a crusader war game, the objectives are mosty in the holy land.)

It would be interesting to see how Europe went from the Vikings to the asent of Spain, CONCENTRATING on Europe.

I would leave out North Africa, Europe never really got there until the Portugeuse take Cueta.
I would have a very tough (but pacifist) Al Andulas (Moorish Spain, perhaps high value defenders, but low value attackers).
A similar Byzantine empire, and the other five players could be England, France, Spain, Germany and maybe either Vikings or Poland.
The Turks could be powerful barbarians.

Just tossing ideas here, but I would love to see such a scenario.

[El León]

By all means! Medieval Europe would be great. I also feel that there are not enough out there.
Gigamaps and long scenarios I've never liked per se, but if you do it right, you can get away with it.

Tell us more details!

[St Leo]

I recommend using a map smaller than the standard maximum myself.

[MagyarCrusader]

Well Chris, Europe would be the main focus, but I have to include the Crusades. They are too significant to ignore. I just wasn't plaining on making it the goal of the scenario, more so as a side quest. There would be monetary incentives and wonders to motivate the players. Primarily, the human controlled European powers would concern themselves with domestic issues: science research, trade, infrastructure, negotiation of alliances, and expansion of terrority.

I feel as if the giga map is a necessity. This isn't going to be a single player scenario (although it could be). Sicne PBEMs progress slowly, I want the players to have a lot to do during their turns so things stay interesting. None of this crap where you move 2 units, save your game and wait a week to do the same thing again.

As far as civilizations go, the human controlled nations would be England, France, Holy Roman Empire, Poland, and of course Hungary. Byzantium, the non German dominated Italian city states, and the Christian Spanish states would be lumped together into a single civ, probably called something like "Christian States." These guys could be human controlled, but they don't have to be. The 7th civ would be the Muslim world, and they would be AI controlled through events. All areas independent of these powers, such as Scotland, Bulgaria and Flanders would be barbarian cities open for conquest. Comments?

MGE would be the platform. I prefer ToT, but I fear if I created a PBEM ToT scenario nobody would play.

For art, I'm going to shamefully rip everything. Unless there are people willing to contribute to designing original pieces...

And who voted for option 3?!

[El León]

I saw a note in John Ellis' Seize the Crown about attempting to change the spaceship to the crusade...
That may be an interesting idea, especially if the graphics in the dll's are edited... First european power to get a crusade together wins the game...

[Chris 62]

I like it, but I would keep the focus on Europe.

You could handle Crusades with events as easily as having units go there, and depending on the time frame, Outremer (The Crusader holdings) really didn't last all that long.

Lumping all of those states together would create a super civ, wouldn't it?
Plus the units would be a problem, Byzantine units should not look like The forces of Spain, for example.

Maybe you could drop Poland (I know, forget dropping Hungary ), make the Byzantines seperate, and add the polish holdings to the Christian states.
Another option is to Drop the English, they are Viking controled (The Danelaw), except for a small area till 1066, then they are Norman states for a long time.
You could have Britain have a number of Barb cities, England plays little part in world affairs till the Hundred years war (Richard the First, for example, spent maybe 6 months of his ENTIRE life in Britain, and only spoke French).

How will you handle the Vikings?
Barbarians?
They were a real menace from about 700-900 AD, but their influence declines after that.

I'm sure you will figure it all out, I'm just tossing out ideas.

[techumseh]

Originally posted by MagyarCrusader
Well Chris, Europe would be the main focus, but I have to include the Crusades. They are too significant to ignore. I just wasn't plaining on making it the goal of the scenario, more so as a side quest. There would be monetary incentives and wonders to motivate the players. Primarily, the human controlled European powers would concern themselves with domestic issues: science research, trade, infrastructure, negotiation of alliances, and expansion of terrority.

I like El Leon's idea of 'Spaceship as Crusade'.

I feel as if the giga map is a necessity. This isn't going to be a single player scenario (although it could be). Sicne PBEMs progress slowly, I want the players to have a lot to do during their turns so things stay interesting. None of this crap where you move 2 units, save your game and wait a week to do the same thing again.

Gigamaps can make for MORE boring games. Be sure your cities have overlapping areas of control, at least in the more settled areas. Big spaces between cities is a drag.

As far as civilizations go, the human controlled nations would be England, France, Holy Roman Empire, Poland, and of course Hungary. Byzantium, the non German dominated Italian city states, and the Christian Spanish states would be lumped together into a single civ, probably called something like "Christian States." These guys could be human controlled, but they don't have to be. The 7th civ would be the Muslim world, and they would be AI controlled through events. All areas independent of these powers, such as Scotland, Bulgaria and Flanders would be barbarian cities open for conquest. Comments?

Sounds good.

MGE would be the platform. I prefer ToT, but I fear if I created a PBEM ToT scenario nobody would play.

I'm getting pretty good response to Roman Civil War. If we make enough good scenarios, people will play them. We just need that critical mass. Keep the faith!

For art, I'm going to shamefully rip everything. Unless there are people willing to contribute to designing original pieces...

Get everyone who contributes to use a consistent art style, eg. using Alex's units as a template.

And who voted for option 3?!

While I definitely want you to make this scenario, there are some temptations beyond any attempt at self control.

[Valuk]

No, don't use that blasted ToT thing! It's just a commercial blunder, which is best forgotten!
Do it in MGE at least!

[St Leo]

Hmm, having seen the new Roman PBEM scenario, I am warming towards ToT again. It makes terrain look a lot better.

[El León]

Originally posted by techumseh
I like El Leon's idea of 'Spaceship as Crusade'.

It's John Ellis'
If I recall correctly, there are remnants of his work in this direction in the STC scenario...

[Cyrion]

Originally posted by BeBro
I would say go for it, I think there should be more medieval scns

However, I don´t like gigamaps....

Ditto...

However, I would only play it if it's MPGE, so my opinion doesn't really count!

Not because I think TOT is crap (I've got no idea about it!), but only because I don't have it (like most of the people in the forum).

[Dr. Nick]

I want to vote yes and Hungarians suck!

[MagyarCrusader]

I'm getting pretty good response to Roman Civil War. If we make enough good scenarios, people will play them. We just need that critical mass. Keep the faith!

Maybe you're right. I really would prefer ToT... I will watch your PBEM thread and see how it goes. But Techumseh, if I do make this scenario you better jump in the PBEM game!

I saw a note in John Ellis' Seize the Crown about attempting to change the spaceship to the crusade...
That may be an interesting idea, especially if the graphics in the dll's are edited... First european power to get a crusade together wins the game...

Thanks for the suggestion, but I don't think I'll do it. The 'Crusade Race' would limit the possibilities of the scenario and everyone would have to stop after it's accomplished, even if people want to keep going. It's a good idea for single player, but not multiplayer. Besides, I wouldn't want to rip off John Ellis' idea and make him impatient with me.

I want to vote yes and Hungarians suck!

Great! When it's done you can join the game and show me how bad we really suck.

Thank you everyone for your feedback.

And why is option 3 at 5 votes now?!

[techumseh]

Originally posted by MagyarCrusader


Maybe you're right. I really would prefer ToT... I will watch your PBEM thread and see how it goes. But Techumseh, if I do make this scenario you better jump in the PBEM game!

You got it!

And why is option 3 at 5 votes now?!

'Cause I haven't figured out how to vote more than once!

[Heresson]

Maybe you could drop Poland

I'll be happy to see that scenario with Poland or without it

[DarthVeda]

I voted Hungarians suck even though I am part Hungarian

[Heresson]

I am absolutely objective here. Poland is a good choice
Though it depends on exact time. When shall your scn start and when will it end, and what shall be on the map. That are the basics the discussion can not go without.

[Valuk]

No! You should absolutely drop those barbarian Poles or Hungarians and include Byzantium.
What did Hungary have in the year 1000? Nothing!
What did Byzantium have? 2000 years of culture!
You should consider the sides objectively, you know...

[Chris 62]

It's also a matter of perspective, Poland becomes a major power at the very end of the middle ages, during the height of the period the Teutonic Knights pretty much vitimized Polish tribes for fun and profit.

The driving factor in the early middle ages is disintigration of the Roman Empire and rise of the Germanic Barbarians.
The next period is the era of the Viking raids, which reunifies many areas, followed by the rise of the Holy Roman Empire.
During this period the Byzantines were resisting the rise of Islam in the Middle east and Turkey, a battle they would slowly lose over time.

Another driving factor is Christian Spain resisting Muslim Spain, which was far more advanced.
France and Britain are really small fractured kingdoms of little importance on the world stage, they are actually quite backward.

The high middle ages are defined by first the Norman conquests, and then Crusades against Islam, that make some gains in the ME, as well as Spain, but Islam is challenged heavily (as is Eastern Europe) by the Mongol conquests (Many historians believe that western Europe was only saved by the khan dieing, which forced all Mongol leaders to return home to appoint the new leader, by Mongol tradition).

Hungary under Bela was crushed by Mongol armies, so making them a major power is questionable (but I know Magyar wants his home nationality in the game, so be it), but France, England and Poland in this period are interchangable as civ choices.

I do still believe that a Byzantine civ should be separate from any other grouping, they had different forces and motivations from the other Christian States.

Events and Barb cities could handle the Vikings, and maybe the Normans and mongols as well.

[Arthedain]

Instead of Poland you could have Lithuania which was a big country at least in the late Middle Age. In 1430 it covered an area from the Baltic to the Balck Sea. (see image, red territory) Later Poland and Lithuania formed an union and soon both countries were ruled by one king and became one kingdom, Poland.

[tanelorn]

Yeah, but since according to Magyar Crusader this is not going to be a rennaisance scenario, about Hungarians and Ottomans, but a scenario about Magyar participation in the Crusades a 1000ad map is more appropriate, I think. (11c.). The easy thing to do though, is to go straight to 1071, when the map has already been changed. Here is a map I made.

[MagyarCrusader]

Instead of Poland you could have Lithuania which was a big country at least in the late Middle Age. In 1430 it covered an area from the Baltic to the Balck Sea. (see image, red territory) Later Poland and Lithuania formed an union and soon both countries were ruled by one king and became one kingdom, Poland.

OK, I'll admit it, I'm not a buff on Polish history during the Middle Ages! But I do want to include them, if for no other reason than strategic balance for the scenario. The Holy Roman Empire will already be the most dominant human controlled civ. This is a giga map that does include a lot of Russia. If there is no Poland, there is only Hungary checking German eastward expansion against barbarian controlled cities. I am not going to make Hungary a super civ (although the thought has crossed my mind a few times ) to deal with it. Remember, diplomatic negotiations between human players will be permitted. Poland, Hungary and England will be roughly of equal strenght (ie, production and population). France will be a bit higher in both areas and the Holy Romans will be even greater. Human players should keep this in mind when they approach the foreign policy table. Cooperation is important, and if the players wanted there could be no war... but ultimately everyone is looking out for himself.

Chris, how active were the Vikings after 1000AD? Denmark is included in the map but only the southern tip of Norway and Sweden. Maybe if wouldn't be worthwhile to use events to simulate their activity if historically speaking, they were minor during this period?

Tanelorn, what year is that map? I want to start the game off after there was been a split between Rome and the German Emperor. What year should that be?

Valuk, that is a sick joke.

Heresson, clear out your pm box, i haven't been able to send you any messages.


Darth, shame on you!

Tech, you wanna help me with units? I'm not going to start working on this scenario until at least St Leo posts the Middle Age graphics thread for me to raid from.

[Chris 62]

The Vikings settled after 1000 AD, they stopped raiding, the eastern Vikings become the Novgorod Russians, as well as Kievans, and many other Russian tribes.

The Western branch become the Britons, the eastern half of England anyway, called as i mentioned, the Danelaw.
Harold Goodwinson beats them just before he losses to William the conqueror in 1066.

Over time the Vikings become peaceful, Sweden emerges from them, as well as denmark and norway.

So I think that event driven barbs is the way to go with them.

[MagyarCrusader]

Well if they are peaceful, which direction should the viking barbs be driven?

[Chris 62]

I would stop having them after 1000 AD.
They started to settle, the Normans are actually Vikings, given Normandy so they would protect France instead of attacking it.

Viking raiders were known in Italy and the byzantine world, and raided down Russian rivers all the way to the Black sea, but as empires in europe became more organized, Vikings realized that trade was more valuable then raids.

[tanelorn]

Originally posted by MagyarCrusader
Tanelorn, what year is that map? I want to start the game off after there was been a split between Rome and the German Emperor. What year should that be?

-The map is 1000 ad.

-Dates (not the fruit )

962 Pope John XII crowns Otto I Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire (Reestablishment of the Empire)

1066 Battle of Hastings: Normans conquer England

1071 Battle of Mantzikert, Armenia. Turks conquer Asia Minor

1075 Pope Gregory VII excommunicates the Emperor Henry

1077 Emperor Henry in Canosa (reconciliation with the Pope)

1096 First crusade

[MagyarCrusader]

So prehaps '75 should be the starting year?

How much of Asia Minor did the Turks take from Manzikert? Was it all the way to Bosporus?