Builder priorities - Techs after Auto Industry

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Ok,

A question for those builders and closet builder out there.

The patented builder approach (ala Vel's compendium) is normally beeline through IA then onto techs that remove restrictions. Suppose for a sec tho' that we look to deviate from the tried and true approach. I've been experimenting with some success in beelining upto ecological engineering and then pausing to move onto other techs namely beelining bioengineering for clean.

In doing so I've set my sights to bootstrap my industrial might via crawlering a few choice rocky-roaded mines (target 2 per base site). Hopefully I've also managed to gain the WP. In doing so I immediately look to condensor farm approximately 2 squares per base site as well (better yet a nutrient special). Now I am in position to crank out clean formers and begin pop booms earlier (at least in my estimation) than having to wait for tree farms to aid nutrient output. Further it gets me a little better rounded out in the tech tree to allow for MMI a little sooner.

Tree farms do come along a little later but are not the end all be all to allow huge base populations. Later on after planetary transit (SP) I target all new base site to have preformed 1 condensor farm and two boreholes this allows an immediate base site set up of 13 mins/13 energy therby giving the base a huge leg up on making these base site prime for quick development.

So question to those of you out there. Is it appropriate to beeline all the way through tree farms or better to detour to clean reactors (thereby allowing infinite former builds)?

[WhiteElephants]

I've always went for tree farms first not neccessarily because I want to build tree farms, but because it lifts the energy restricions and thereby allows me to crank out some energy from solar collectors/echelon mirrors and ultimately rush build more stuff with the extra energy. Also, if you don't have the tech for tree farms you won't be getting that +6 energy from your boreholes either. Of course, I've never tried to go clean reactors first so I can't tell if that would give you the boost your looking for. Are you talking about adding more clean formers or just upgrading your current formers to clean or both?

[Misotu]

Must admit that although I'm hopeless at following careful strategies (too tactical, unfortunately ), I always do end up heading for tree farms just to get the energy restrictions lifted. The extra forest nutrients are good, but since I tend to build round the coast, I'm not so bothered about that - a combination of forest minerals and ocean nutrient/energy always seems to work pretty well for me in the early game.

I'm a big fan of clean formers though - but I usually seem to get there just after the super ability arrives. Your approach sounds interesting Ogie - I'm always too mean on formers, never build enough. How long does it take to get going though? Condensors/mines take a heck of a time to build in those critical early turns. Before you get to clean, how many formers per base do you need to make this viable?

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

WE and Mis,

First of all I look at energy restrictions as a temporary loss. If one follows the tree farm approach to gain most energy you realy aren't taking advantage of >2 energy per square. Boreholes, tidal harnessses and energy parks aside the bulk of energy in these pre tree farm and iommediate post tree farm era-days still comes from base square as well as trade. (Not too many boreholes should be drilled yet and as I indicated you do plan to get back to the tech as soon as you can.) Tree farms don't aid the raw energy harvest but do aid in the econ/psych multiplier. The gain in my estimation comes from an earlier and sustainable momentum build to pop boom ASAP (prebuilding condensor farms 2/base as soon as WP is built) but more importantly then have extra clean former resources to continue using as you wish through your midgame. I often considered abandoning even going after gene splice in favor of this approach to pop boom even sooner but find the min restriction lifting a pretty serious drawback.

As for required former time a condensor farm takes minimum of 11 normal former turns with WP sp (8 for condensor which you always build first in order to raise inherent raininess for any other squares and then 3 for the farm) I normally proceed with former teams of no less than 3 in order to complete said project in less than 4 turns (and normally allowing a road build as well)

Lastly the appraoch to upgrade your formers to clean or start from scratch is really your preference, but assuming you haven't already overloaded your base sites with a lot of supported fomers your probably jsut better off leavingthe existing alone and using the energy for some better use like rush building some creches or the like.

Finally on a different tangent I have been trying some different approaches with beginning tech that look quite promising using UoP as a model.

Free tech - Industrial Base - B1
1st tech - Industrial Econ - B2
2nd tech - Planetary Networks - D2
3rd tech - INDUSTRIAL AUTOMATION - B3 (Crawlers by MY2110-1!!!)
4th tech - Centauri Ecology -E1 (formers by MY2114ish and in time for 3rd colony placement)

All this time I have been adamant about having Centauri Ecology as a starting tech for early former builds but 5 times out of 10 you start by popping the nearby pods and bingo you have a monolith which lessens your immediate need for a former. So started playing with the idea of how fast could I get to IA and the above allows for the soonest appraoch sans free techs from pod popping.

[mark13]

Whatever starting place I have I do tend to go straight for EnvEco:

- Arid starting place, lots of forests, straight for EnvEco and get Tree Farms up

- Rainy starting place, lots of solar collectors/echelon mirrors, straight for EnvEco for energy restrictions.

I think the very early techs have to depend on the starting places - if you have a lot of rainy terrain, the need for Formers straight away is reduced.
Monoliths are also good for this purpose. However, if you don't get a monolith nearby, and you neglect CentEco, you will be severly hampered in your expansion efforts.

OTOH, a lot of the techs on the way to IndAuto have very useful units/facilities attached to them:

- IndBase, Synthmetal Armor, an absolute must if you come across Santiago early on

- PlanNet, Probe Teams, soooo useful as clean scouts

- IndEcon, FM model, critical for early/mid game tech, although this is probably not so critical.

Regarding types of Formers, I am a huge fan of Clean Formers, even better SuperClean Formers, which I tend to churn out if I have sufficient production (30-ish). I will normally send several of them a few turns away to build a borehole or three, along with a few crawlers. In this way you can quite easily get 6 minerals and 14 energy/turn (assuming you have +2 Econ SE).

[UnityScoutChopper]

quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe on 10-03-2000 05:05 PM Ok, I've been experimenting with some success in beelining upto ecological engineering and then pausing to move onto other techs namely beelining bioengineering for clean...... . In doing so I immediately look to condensor farm approximately 2 squares per base site as well (better yet a nutrient special). Now I am in position to crank out clean formers and begin pop booms earlier (at least in my estimation) than having to wait for tree farms to aid nutrient output.

Your strategy sounds intriguing and, considering that you have tried it and I have not, I cannot criticize it. But there are some things that I do not understand, could you please elaborate?

1. Clean formers are much more expensive than ordinary formers. Where do you get the extra minerals to build them -- or do you upgrade to them?

2. Condensor farms are much more polluting than ordinary farms, and you are building pollution-reducing Tree Farms later than "usual" in the pop-boom cycle. What is your pollution situation? I usually get problems in the mid-teens of production (on Transcend).

3. Condensors occupy the slot that normally goes to solar collectors. How do you make up for the missing energy?

4. Is there a point where you plant forests over the farms and build hybrid forests?

quote: Later on after planetary transit (SP) I target all new base site to have preformed 1 condensor farm and two boreholes this allows an immediate base site set up of 13 mins/13 energy therby giving the base a huge leg up on making these base site prime for quick development.

I can't imagine getting my formers out that far. I play huge-map games, and I am glad when I manage merely to radiate police infantry to my new sites, let alone formers beforehand. (I also use a lot of overseas and island colonization, and tend to still be founding a base a turn on average in the early 2200's.)

Erik P

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

USC (by the by love the acronym for your name, "Go Trojans!", actually I'm a Penn State Grad but thats neither here nor there)

Anyhoo,

Regarding your points made.

1. Cost of clean vs normal formers. Clean infantry former is base 30 vs. Normal of 20 mins. True it is more expensive, but if you target having base min production of 15, then a clean former every other turn is so sweet. But think about this. Every 10 turns that clean former exists the expense has beeen paid for.

2. Regarding pollution. Eco damage is an issue. Excess mineral production is a prob and needs to be curtalied. Boreholes are not preferable until later on. Min. production of 15 ish is still normally OK. Perhaps some minor 3-6 eco damage results but it isn't too big of an issue. Later on when I go for the condensor farm/2 borehole scenario techs are usually discovered that allow some relief on tolerance to eco damage (ie. more mins are allowed before eco damage occurrs)

3. Regarding energy. Population is energy. If you have the nutrients to keep the pop boom going and are hamstrung by energy always, always, always look to specialize you population into econ or science producing specialists.

4. Replacing farms with forests, almost never. In fact I often replace my forests with condensor farms/soil enrichers (especially after hybrid forests facility is built to prevent ecodamge for radical t-forming)and put in boreholes to allow mins and energy. See thread on specialist bases.

Key is formers and tons of them hence the need for clean reactors. I tend however not to ICS too much and perhaps that is where we differ, I usually end up with 30 ish bases not counting conquered bases.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

A little bit more on Beeline strategies when considering directed research. Although this is not considered new information by any stretch of the imagination, it does bear repeating. Beelines as establsihed take this into consideration, but for those of you like me who play without a guide sitting in front of you.

Consider Industial Auto as your targeted tech.

The game will not allow you to choose successive techs of the same type (most of the time at least) and as a result you must alternate between tech types in order to beeline as quickly as possible.

For the IA example above (the shortest beeline then becomes)

Prereqs are:
1st tech to discover Industrial Base -(B1 Prereq for Industrial Econ B2)

Tech avaialable to choose then becomes (as B2 is not shown)

2nd tech Net Nodes - D1 prereq for Planetary Networks D2

3rd tech Industrial Econ (Planetary Networks not available) - B2

4th tech Planetary networks - D2

5th tech Industrial Automation - B3

Notice the pattern B1,D1,B2,D2,B3. You don't see a B1,B2 or a B2,B3 combination as the game doens't offer the successive build tech normally as an option.

If anyone has any info to the contrary I would be most interested, but all my play experience indicates this is the case. As a result, the beeline to IA then for a few select factions should be:

Gaians: Start tech Centauri Ecology E1
Beeline to IA is as above namely B1 (industrial base),D1(net nodes),B2(industrial econ),D2(planetary networks),B3 (IA)

Lal: start tech is Biogenetics
Same as above

Morgan & Domai: Start tech is Industrial Base
1st -Beeline is d1 net node
2nd - B2 Industrial Econs
3rd - D2 planetary networks
4th - B3 IA

Data Angels - Start tech is net nodes and planetary networks
1st tech Beelines is B1 Industrial Base
2nd Any other tech other than build (suggest Centauri Ecology E1)
3rd tech B2 - Industrial Econ
4th tech (any other tech other than Build)
5th tech B3 IA

Uop - Start tech is Net nodes
Free tech is Industrial Base
1st tech is B2 Industrial Econ
2nd tech is D2 Planetary Networks
3rd tech is B3 IA.

Note: For the first 3 or so tech UoP researchs at rates of 3-4 turns/tech so in doing the above UoP can get to IA by no later than 2113.

You don't necessarily need to have a beeline mapping out the techs in front of you just remember to plan your discoveries of prereqs accordingly such that the last prereq discovered is not of the same type as your desired target tech else you'll be delayed by having to discover another tech before your allowed to have the target tech as a valid choice.