Guerillas, They're Great ! - Page 2

Willem · December 30, 2002, 23:09

Quote:

Originally posted by cassembler
I had a unit that was 1/1/1 (all as roads) that was colorless, but I had some issues.

-First of all, it was unique, so I don't know how the AI would use them.
-They were attacked on sight by any unit nearby, regardless of anything
-If I stacked them with one of my colored units under a right of passage agreement, I could pillage an entire countryside with no downside.

Other than that, they were pretty cool, but, for the process of pillaging and capturing, I thing the human will always have a huge advantage.

Multiplayer might be unique though...

Yes, I never thought of the stack/pillaging thing.

I find having them in my game that I definitely need to use some discretion. As you say, the human player can certainly use them more effectively, which can be a real advantage. So I try not to be to aggressive with them. I use them primarily to capture Workers, and to keep my borders clear of interlopers.

They're great for that! I find if I have one or two in the area, that an escorted Settler will just turn tail and head the other way. Quite often I don't even need to attack them, they just leave.

Mad Bomber · January 3, 2003, 08:00

I modded Gureillas to 8.8.1 all terrain as roads, and ignoring Mountains and Jungle. Next, I think that I will mke them 'invisible' and see how that works. BTW Infantry are modded to 8.10.1 , Marines and Parra's are modded as well.

I expect that making them colorless will make this unit a great harrassing unit, great for pillaging, and distracting an enemy, keeping them off balance. Should be great fun.

Thoth · January 3, 2003, 14:35

I haven't had much opportunity to play with this unit, but making them a 6/6/1, all terrain as roads, and radar should be a fairly balanced, usefull unit. The radar ability allows them to see 2 through all terrain simulating guerilla's ability to infilitrate the countryside gathering information. (I've also added this abilty to the Mongol Keshiks..........I'm not looking forward to going up against them)

zulu9812 · January 3, 2003, 14:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Mad Bomber
I all terrain as roads, and ignoring Mountains and Jungle.

no point having both

Mad Bomber · January 4, 2003, 03:10

Zulu:

I have parras also flagged with the all terrain as roads so that they can have a use chasing down other guerillas, would be a good way to initiate a "low intensity" conflict like in Vietnam, cambodia, nicaragua ect. The Guerilla is made unique in that it ignores mountains and jungle, but the parras are given a higher defense than guerillas. Marines are given a higher attack than infantry, making a niche for all of the modern foot units.

Stuie · January 6, 2003, 10:17

I think the point is, if you're treating "all terrain as roads" you are already ignoring the effects of mountain and jungle. Flagging both does not provide any additional functionality to the unit.

planetfall · January 6, 2003, 12:47

Wild use of guerrillas
Wow you all are making guerrillas more powerful than infantry. Interesting variation but not my prefence.

Guerrilla ideal

I am still trying to find the ideal values for guerrilla's. This is what I am trying to accomplish:

1. AI build ratio at least 5 inf to 1 guerrilla, or higher.

2. Guerrilla ability to attack and retreat in same turn

3. Guerrilla invisible

4. Guerrilla weaker in offense than infantry

5. Guerrilla weaker in defense than cavalry.

Guerrilla problems
This is with settings:

80:5.1.2 invisible, mt/hill/jungle no terrain movement penalty

1. AI build ratio is reversed, 5+ guerrillas to 1 infanty
Planned adjustment: change to 70:4.1.2

2. works, but AI doesn't use this strategy:
a. move next unit to attack NEXT turn
b. wait for next turn
c. attach with 1st movement
d. retreat with 2nd movement

Disappointed but no adjustment known.

3. works great, only visible by:
a. guerrillas
b. infantry
c. mechs
Stops tank/MA only attacks

4. Bummer, guerrilla is stronger than infantry. The offense of 5 for guerrilla is much strongeer than 6 for infantry. It will take 2-3 infantry to take out an enemy infantry. but guerrilla's are about even with infantry. 1-2 guerrila's will take out enemy infantry.

5. Bummer, guerrilla defense of 2 is stronger than 3 defense rating of cavs. Defense of 1 is about like cavs.

Present state of testing of guerrilla's values:

Current: 80:5.1.2 doesn't work.

Next to try:
70:4.1.2; and then
70:3.1.2; and if that fails, then
60:2.1.2; and if that fails, then
70:1.1.2.

== PF

Mad Bomber · January 6, 2003, 15:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Stuie
I think the point is, if you're treating "all terrain as roads" you are already ignoring the effects of mountain and jungle. Flagging both does not provide any additional functionality to the unit.

No actually it is different, ignoring a terrain means exactly that; the unit spends 0 MP moving from that terrain, with all terrain as roads, they would spend 1/3 of a mp, it is a huge difference. The guerilla gains a huge advantage in areas where their is a large tracts of jungle and mountains nearby, but they are maginal in flat lands, which is my goal.

Planetfall:

Even if a tank or MA cant see the guerilla it does not mean that they cannot attack them (unless the tanks are wheeled and the guerilla is in jungle or mountains)

Willem · January 6, 2003, 16:35

Quote:

Originally posted by Mad Bomber

No actually it is different, ignoring a terrain means exactly that; the unit spends 0 MP moving from that terrain, with all terrain as roads, they would spend 1/3 of a mp, it is a huge difference. The guerilla gains a huge advantage in areas where their is a large tracts of jungle and mountains nearby, but they are maginal in flat lands, which is my goal.

It doesn't make any difference! Once you add the all terrain as roads flag, all the other movement options don't apply. If a unit has 1 move all terrain as roads, it's going to be able to move three squares, regardless of what terrain it's on. You're confusing yourself!

planetfall · January 6, 2003, 16:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Mad Bomber

Planetfall:

Even if a tank or MA cant see the guerilla it does not mean that they cannot attack them (unless the tanks are wheeled and the guerilla is in jungle or mountains)

Right that is my goal. If tank/MA can find guerrilla, they can attack but key is moving guerrilla where tanks don't think they are.

Wheeled or not, the biggest advantage would be a guerrilla attack and then "disappearing" into one of three jungle tiles. 2 tanks could find and attack the guerrilla, but one would only have a 2/3 chance of finding guerrilla.

Thus guerrilla should either escape 1/3th of the time or redirect 2 units away from the main battlelines. Sounds like good guerrilla action to me.

-- PF

ruslankv · January 6, 2003, 18:22

it's very useful unit in the sense of modenisation Medivial Infuntry, and what wold your do, if you would not have a rubber? But, i don't know, why Firaxis made thear prise the same as infantry? It's FOOLISHLY!!! Could they do it less? for instanse, at 15?

ruslankv · January 6, 2003, 18:23

it's very useful unit in the sense of modenisation Medivial Infuntry, and what wold your do, if you would not have a rubber? But, i don't know, why Firaxis made thear prise the same as infantry? It's FOOLISHLY!!! Could they do it less? for instanse, at 15%?

planetfall · January 6, 2003, 18:46

15% isn't possible. Price has to be in multiples of whole numbers. Look at your editor. The cost of guerrilla is 9, which gets multiplied by 10 and becomes 90. The same as infantry. The basic problem is too many units are close to each other in cost:

Cost == 60
~~~~~~~~~~
musketman 2.4.1 salt
musketeer 3.4.1 salt
ansar warrior 4.2.3 horse,Fe
keshik 4.2.2 horse

Cost == 70
~~~~~~~~~~
conquistador 3.2.2 horse
berserk 6.2.1 none
knight 4.3.2 horse,Fe
rider 4.3.3 horse,Fe
war elephant 4.3.2 none
samarai 4.4.2 Fe

cost == 80
~~~~~~~~~~
cavalry 6.3.3 horse,salt
cossack 6.4.3 horse,salt
rifleman 4.6.1 none

Cost == 90
~~~~~~~~~~
guerrilla 6.6.1 none
infantry 6.10.1 rubber

Cost == 100
~~~~~~~~~~~
sipahi 8.3.3 horse,salt
paratrooper 6.8.1 oil,rubber
marine 8.6.1 rubber
tank 16.8.2 oil,rubber
panzer 16.8.3 oil, rubber

So where does guerrilla fit?

offense? cav is cheaper and moves further
defense? rifleman is cheaper if no rubber, infantry is stronger for same price if have rubber.

Maybe the solution is to knock rifleman down to cost 70 and guerrilla to 80. After all the guerrilla should be a better unit than at 1700's rifleman.

== PF

Mad Bomber · January 7, 2003, 03:11

Quote:

Originally posted by planetfall

Right that is my goal. If tank/MA can find guerrilla, they can attack but key is moving guerrilla where tanks don't think they are.

Wheeled or not, the biggest advantage would be a guerrilla attack and then "disappearing" into one of three jungle tiles. 2 tanks could find and attack the guerrilla, but one would only have a 2/3 chance of finding guerrilla.

Thus guerrilla should either escape 1/3th of the time or redirect 2 units away from the main battlelines. Sounds like good guerrilla action to me.

-- PF

Or you could use a guerilla as a scout to find the guerilla, and finish him off with the tank or MA, if it can move into the tile.

Willem:

Haven't gotten a chance to play with the mod yet, I will let you know wether the changes work or not. I suspect that it will ignore movement costs in jungle and mountains even with the all terrain as roads flag, but I will check on that and report my findings.

player1 · January 7, 2003, 07:37

But ignore movemnt cost doesn't mean 0 movment cost.
It means cost of 1 movmet point (like in grassland).

Mad Bomber · January 9, 2003, 01:39

Player:

Thanx for the info, I havent tested out this yet

A real bummer if you a right (and I assume you are)

Ok, If that is the case, I'll give the Guerilla the "all roads flag" and the Parras ignoring mountains and jungles as I want the guerillas faster than the parras.

zulu9812 · January 11, 2003, 06:28

move 1 + all roads flag means that the unit will move all 3 tiles over all terrain; move 2 + ignore movement w/all terrain types means that the unit will move 2 tiles over all terrain.

Mad Bomber · January 11, 2003, 07:11

Quote:

move 2 + ignore movement w/all terrain types means that the unit will move 2 tiles over all terrain.

Me thinks Zulu has a winner with this mod.....

planetfall · January 14, 2003, 11:08

Quote:

Originally posted by zulu9812
You don't think a move of 6 on all terrain is a bit much? I gave them move 2, but ignoring movement costs in jungle, forests, hills and mountains.

Totally agree. Those are the same movement settings I use for my guerrillas.

-- PF

Zero · January 14, 2003, 11:36

Quote:

Originally posted by zulu9812
move 1 + all roads flag means that the unit will move all 3 tiles over all terrain; move 2 + ignore movement w/all terrain types means that the unit will move 2 tiles over all terrain.

This solves 6 movement problem, but it still gives them the retreat function, which they didnt have along with the extra movement. Giving an extra move to a 2 movement unit is not much of a difference compared to giving 1 movement unit an extra move. It changes the balance alot.

Unless you dont mind giving them a retreat function, or even better if it was intentional..... I like to play by deafult rules so giving them a whole new function is a bit too much for me, but hey if it works for you guys...

This does downplay the importance of calvary though, since guerilla would be superior in every aspect except when crossing grasslands (ansar VS keshik deal) but its not too big of a blow to calvary's usefulness because guerillas would come in when calvary's role is significantly reduced... But do be aware this.

EDIT: Actually Guerilla is Calvary as to Rider is to Keshik is more likely than Ansar is to Keshik, since Guerilla would have more defense and would be slightly more expensive. But hey, guerilla doesnt require resource but calvary do. Rider requires more resource than keshik! Ack, still not a perfect analogy...

Quote:

So where does guerrilla fit?

offense? cav is cheaper and moves further
defense? rifleman is cheaper if no rubber, infantry is stronger for same price if have rubber.

Not true! How can you have calvaries if you don't have horse(and/or) saltpeter?

Besides, Guerillas exists as a further upgrade to your obsolete units from medieval ages such as medieval infantry and longbowmen. Since they are big part of your offensive army if you didnt build knights, its a HUGE help to upgrade them to guerilla, even if you didnt mod the unit.

Stuie · January 14, 2003, 11:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Calc II
This solves 6 movement problem, but it still gives them the retreat function, which they didnt have along with the extra movement.... Unless you dont mind giving them a retreat function, or even better if it was intentional.....

For me it was intentional. I want them to be able to retreat, and then flee into hostile terrain. You know, like guerillas.

King_Henry · January 14, 2003, 21:34

I think guerillas are great to. Personally, I hate having a bunch of unupgradable swordsmen running around against mechs. The worst is when the AI uses a few swordsmen to attack my metropolis defended with 6 vet infantry.

I use the guerillas to pillage land that I'm not gonna take anyway. Simple use. Also a good pre- tank unit.