The greatest civilization of all

[Vitmore The Great]

I won't answer the question in the way stated, since asking which civ was the most important is like asking which link in a chain is the most important.

So I will answer with a civ that if it hadn't existed, the world would be very different. This civ isn't recognized as uber innovators like the Greeks and such. This civ is mor like a nexxus between the ancient and modern worlds.

Well, my civ is the Byzantines. The Byzantines if you do not know was the evolved Eastern Roman Empire that survived the Germanic invasion and the fall of the empire in the west. The Byzantines preserved Hellenic and Roman civilization while western Europe was rebuilding itself and other civs like China and India were recovering from their own bouts with nomadic tribes. During the rise of Islam during the latter 1st mellennium, it was the Byzantines that were the first line of defence for Western Civilization in it's modern infancy. If Byzantium had fallen during those early times, Europe, therefore the world would be a very different place. By the time Constantinople (the Byzantine capital) had fallen in 1453, Western Europe had become strong enough to defend itself and was poised to project its power around the globe. In fact, Western Europe matured at the right time, since Byzantium was in decline, as shown by the Crusades. Byzantium was responsible for the Rennaisance in Italy, since it was Byzantines escaping the fall of Constantinople in 1453 who brought over much of Greek and Roman art, literature, etc so that they would not be destroyed by the Turks.

Vitmore

[Vitmore The Great]

quote: Originally posted by cpoulos on 01-24-2001 08:38 PM Modern democracy is much closer to the greek one man one vote concept then the roman concept of plebians and equites.

When speaking of Empire, Rome indeed was tryannical in nature, a monarchy without the title. But the Roman Republic has a far greater influence on modern democracy than the Greeks ever did. Just read the US Constitution, which revived the Roman Republic in a way. The senate, representative gov't and a code of laws were all Roman innovations, as opposed to every single vote counting for every single gov't decsion, which slows down gov't and allows those who do not have proper experience and knowledge of issues to have active involvement in gov't operations. There are many nations that based their constitutions on the American. Parlimentary gov'ts are also influenced by the Roman Republic, but not to such a degree (common law).

Vitmore

[Vitmore The Great]

Double Post
[This message has been edited by Vitmore The Great (edited January 26, 2001).]

[Vitmore The Great]

Triple Post
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[Vitmore The Great]

Quad Post
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[Bereta_Eder]

quote: Originally posted by Vitmore The Great on 01-25-2001 03:25 PM Byzantium was responsible for the Rennaisance in Italy, since it was Byzantines escaping the fall of Constantinople in 1453 who brought over much of Greek and Roman art, literature, etc so that they would not be destroyed by the Turks. Vitmore

I am surprised you have mentioned the Byzantines. What you say about Byzantium being the «defendor» of western Europe during the collapse of civilization there is true. Of course we didn't hang on and persevered for the shake of western Europe... but because we wanted to stay alive in our own (corrupted to the bone) empire.

In the last words of Constantinos Palaiologos (the last king of Byzantium) when the ottomans had broken the walls gotten into Constantinople fighting with the Byzantines and his was surrouned by turks with all his brothers in arms dead: «Isn't there a Christian to take my head».

WOW That would make for an epic movie!

There are a tone of myths in Greece relevant to the liberation and recapture of Constantinople (now Instabul). This is folkore and the greeks feel pretty much satisfied with what the have but still it reflects the HUGE shock of losing it. A shock of historical magnitude that has lived through legends even to the modern times.

A nice trip that I would recommend is to go to Greece and then to Italy and particularly in Venice. See the Cathedral of San Marco and then bring to mind any greek church.

I was really amazed with the similarities. So much amazed in fact that I said to my italian friend that I'd petition the minister of foreign affairs to make this officially a greek church!
Of course she had some objections to that

[Bereta_Eder]

quote: Originally posted by Vitmore The Great on 01-25-2001 03:25 PM Byzantium was responsible for the Rennaisance in Italy, since it was Byzantines escaping the fall of Constantinople in 1453 who brought over much of Greek and Roman art, literature, etc so that they would not be destroyed by the Turks. Vitmore

I am surprised you have mentioned the Byzantines. What you say about Byzantium being the «defendor» of western Europe during the collapse of civilization there is true. Of course we didn't hang on and persevered for the shake of western Europe... but because we wanted to stay alive in our own (corrupted to the bone) empire.

In the last words of Constantinos Palaiologos (the last king of Byzantium) when the ottomans had broken the walls gotten into Constantinople fighting with the Byzantines and his was surrouned by turks with all his brothers in arms dead: «Isn't there a Christian to take my head».

WOW That would make for an epic movie!

There are a tone of myths in Greece relevant to the liberation and recapture of Constantinople (now Instabul). This is folkore and the greeks feel pretty much satisfied with what the have but still it reflects the HUGE shock of losing it. A shock of historical magnitude that has lived through legends even to the modern times.

A nice trip that I would recommend is to go to Greece and then to Italy and particularly in Venice. See the Cathedral of San Marco and then bring to mind any greek church.

I was really amazed with the similarities. So much amazed in fact that I said to my italian friend that I'd petition the minister of foreign affairs to make this officially a greek church!
Of course she had some objections to that

[Chris 62]

quote: Originally posted by Vitmore The Great on 01-25-2001 03:54 PM When speaking of Empire, Rome indeed was tryannical in nature, a monarchy without the title. But the Roman Republic has a far greater influence on modern democracy than the Greeks ever did. Just read the US Constitution, which revived the Roman Republic in a way. The senate, representative gov't and a code of laws were all Roman innovations, as opposed to every single vote counting for every single gov't decsion, which slows down gov't and allows those who do not have proper experience and knowledge of issues to have active involvement in gov't operations. There are many nations that based their constitutions on the American. Parlimentary gov'ts are also influenced by the Roman Republic, but not to such a degree (common law). Vitmore

Your forgetting Vitmore, that the plebians could not vote on all offices of government, where as in the United States anyone(man,women)that is registered is permitted to vote.(please don't make this a forum to argue the voteing issue.Please stay on point).

[Vitmore The Great]

cpoulos, US was an example of elements of the Roman Republic brought back, not the Republic recreated in essence and form, just wanted to clear up the misunderstanding. Only about 30 000 of Athens' population of about 250 000 in Classical Times were citizens, the rest being the merchant class and slaves with no voting rights, though they were all generally treated with the same standards as citizens minus the vote. Yes democracy, for citizens, like today. I think this issue is one fo the issues tha actually holds Classical Greece from being my Number 1, they had the ideas and innovations, but did not neccessarily apply them universally. The Greeks were the inventors, the Romans the appliers/builders.
Not saying the Romans were perfect or anything, far from it.

[Zeevico]

I would say the first human civilization was the MOST influential (and it being the only one around at the time, the most powerful as well). If the first civilization had developed just 1 second (yes, second, nearly everything discovered is an accident)before it did today. For all we know, we might be using zorklagula instead of what we call electricity.

[Chris 62]

For Vitmore: Thanks for the clarification. A very well thought out response, and a persuasive argument, but I stand by my selection.

[Vitmore The Great]

Alright cpoulos. Nothing wrong with that!

Okay people, lets here some other suggestions!


Vitmore

[DarkCloud]

Greece is the best (city state, voting, influenced Romans, conquered large amount of the world)

China was the best for a time in tech development (fireworks *gunpowder if they followed that tech line*