It is a war against Islam! (and i have nothing to do today)

[Sava]

Good thing nations don't make policy on the results of some meager 500 person poll

[GeneralTacticus]

What a loose load! The U.S. Government attacked it's own civilians and military? What could possibly be worth taking the risk of being found out? You must be quite a fanatic to make such a stupid statement. It can't all be stupidity, as you wouldn't have been able to type your reply if you were so stupid as to believe that crap on its face.

Considering their willingness to mass murder the inhabitants of other countries on a collossal scale, their willingess to poison their own soldiers with Agent Orange and depleted Uranium (quite apart from their effects on the population of the area they were used on) and then deny medical benefits to those same soldiers, their willingness to allow other countries to murder their own citizens if they hold opinions they disagree with (see the rape and murder of 4 American women in El Salvador for an example fo this), and the fact that absolutely nothing was done pre-Sept. 11 to stop it, when the US government announced their 'prime suspect' immediately afterwards, against whom they supposedly had 'incontrovertible evidence', I don't think it's at all outside the realm of possibility that the US government was itself responsible.

And as for the motive - they now have an excuse to go after Iraq and it's oil, push through domestic 'anti-terrorist' legislation that would never have gotten through otherwise, and in general launch a campaign to eliminate what remains of independance to the US. From their point of view, easily worth it, especially when they've been busy lying to their people for decades.

I heard it was found by the SAS.

Irrelevant.

Regardless, You remind me of that paranoid girl in The Dish who thought all Americans were in the employ of the CIA, including the one NASA guy who was there for the moon mission.

How so? Because I actually know some of the **** the US government has gotten up to in the past, and I'm not dissmissing the possibility that they're still doing it?

Of course, the moon mission is fake and it's being covered up by the same guys who're covering up Planet X

Nice tactic, lump everyone who questions the US government in with gullible idiots who believe in UFOs.

The person who most wants this to be a war on Islam instead of a war on terrorism is Osama Bin Laden. Sucsess in the War on Terrorism depends on empowering moderate moslems who do not supoprt terrorism and going after Al Queda.

Well, that would be true if the US government gave jack about fighting terrorism. If they did, it wouldn't be that hard, considering that some of the world's worst terrorists currently live in the US or in their allies, and the US runs the world's biggest terrorist training camp at Fort Bennings.

[Thrawn05]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Nice tactic, lump everyone who questions the US government in with gullible idiots who believe in UFOs.

Questioning the US government and being a gullible idiot are two different things.

[GeneralTacticus]

That's exactly the point.

[Thrawn05]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
That's exactly the point.

So you DO admitt being a gullible idiot then?

[GeneralTacticus]

Oh, and as for my statement about the videotape - I'll withdraw that until I can find where I read it.

[GeneralTacticus]

So you DO admitt being a gullible idiot then?

You knwoe xactly what I meant. And I haven't seen you try to address any of the other things I've pointed out - things which the US government lies about whenever they come up.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus

Considering their willingness to mass murder the inhabitants of other countries on a collossal scale,

What are you talking about? What mass murder?

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
their willingess to poison their own soldiers with Agent Orange and depleted Uranium (quite apart from their effects on the population of the area they were used on) and then deny medical benefits to those same soldiers,

You mean using Agent Orange to protect their soldiers, only to find out later that it was a carcinogen? Ditto depleted uranium, except that there is still no firm evidence that it has poisoned anyone.

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
their willingness to allow other countries to murder their own citizens if they hold opinions they disagree with (see the rape and murder of 4 American women in El Salvador for an example fo this),

So the U.S. gave a green light to the Salvadoran death squads to attack our ally in the war against communism, the Catholic Church, and then gave the Salvodoran government the thumbs up afterwards? We put a lot of pressure on them to find and convict those responsible, and though only some lower ranking sorts were punished this is a far cry from expressing a willingness to have out own citizens murdered.

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
and the fact that absolutely nothing was done pre-Sept. 11 to stop it, when the US government announced their 'prime suspect' immediately afterwards, against whom they supposedly had 'incontrovertible evidence', I don't think it's at all outside the realm of possibility that the US government was itself responsible.

Absolutely nothing was done to stop an operation about which we were ignorant? The incontrovertable evidence piled up in huge stacks soon afterwards as the identity of the hijackers was revealed, and Al Quaida got all excited and claimed credit many times over in public as well as private communications. How many people in the government would have had to have known about this operation in order to pull it off? Are you familiar with information theory? The number of people who know a secret is an exponent of the chance it is revealed. Everything is within the realm of possibility to some tiny degree, which makes that statement effectively worthless. But I'll bet my net worth that the U.S. Government did not carry out this attack. What are you willing to wager on your worthless charges?

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
And as for the motive - they now have an excuse to go after Iraq and it's oil, push through domestic 'anti-terrorist' legislation that would never have gotten through otherwise, and in general launch a campaign to eliminate what remains of independance to the US. From their point of view, easily worth it, especially when they've been busy lying to their people for decades.

We didn't need an excuse, Congress had already passed a very tough resolution against Iraq recommending regime change while Clinton was in office. And Iraq was on Bush's agenda during the election campaign 3 years ago. It was a popular issue long before the unconnected events of 11 Sep.

And what good does legislation expanding the powers of an all powerful conspiratorial government who is willing to lie and murder its own citizens anyway? Do the logic. Your paranoia is the most obvious fact here.

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Well, that would be true if the US government gave jack about fighting terrorism. If they did, it wouldn't be that hard, considering that some of the world's worst terrorists currently live in the US or in their allies, and the US runs the world's biggest terrorist training camp at Fort Bennings.

Whom are you speaking of here when you talk of terrorists in the U.S.?

I assume when you speak of Fort Benning, you are referring to the former School of the Americas, where Latin American military people came to train. Take a good look at the recent history of Latin America and compare it to other post colonial regions of the planet in terms of attrocities, economics, liberty. This region has come very far in the last 50 years despite not being all that wealthy in terms of resources, nor being located very close to the wealthier parts of the globe. We have certainly made our share of mistakes there during the Cold War era, but we have done far more good than harm. Almost every country in Latin America has a democratically elected government, and only one is stuck in a communist rut. The relatively few casualties which were incurred during this period in the region vs what would have been had the U.S. let it fend for itself against communist attempts to subvert tips the scales firmly in favor of the U.S. policy of resisting communist infiltration.

If you really believe this stuff, then why aren't you (personally) making war on the U.S.? Why waste your time on democracy games and other such trivia when your duty must be to resist and destroy the biggest threat to all things good since the Nazis? Perhaps it's because the paranoid left is for some reason only capable of consuming whiny propoganda, and can't be arsed to have any connection to the real world. The real world is their biggest fear, because it will surely destroy their paranoic belief system on contact.

[GeneralTacticus]

What are you talking about? What mass murder?

I refer you to Vietnam as the worst example, along with many other cases in which the US knew about and directly supported atrocities, in cases such as Indonesia (and later East Timor), Chile, Guatemala, Brazil, El Salvador, Iran, and many, many others.

You mean using Agent Orange to protect their soldiers, only to find out later that it was a carcinogen? Ditto depleted uranium, except that there is still no firm evidence that it has poisoned anyone.

http://www.americanstateterrorism.co...edUranium.html

Read that link, then repeat that statement.

So the U.S. gave a green light to the Salvadoran death squads to attack our ally in the war against communism, the Catholic Church, and then gave the Salvodoran government the thumbs up afterwards? We put a lot of pressure on them to find and convict those responsible, and though only some lower ranking sorts were punished this is a far cry from expressing a willingness to have out own citizens murdered.

They allowed some lower-ranking troops to be scapegoated for the atrocity, and completely ignored the fact that the rest of the Salvadoran government was equally bad - while AT THE SAME TIME providing weapons and trainign to them so as to facilitate their continuing, sadistic, Nazi-esque murder of their own people.

Absolutely nothing was done to stop an operation about which we were ignorant?

The US government was hardly ignorant of the attacks while they were in progress, yet still nothing was done, though there was ample time to do it in.

The incontrovertable evidence piled up in huge stacks soon afterwards as the identity of the hijackers was revealed, and Al Quaida got all excited and claimed credit many times over in public as well as private communications.

Has it ever occurred to you that they might be lying? Fro,m their point of view, being 'blamed' for Sept. 11 would be an honour.

How many people in the government would have had to have known about this operation in order to pull it off? Are you familiar with information theory? The number of people who know a secret is an exponent of the chance it is revealed.

A lot of people within the US government would have known about what was going on in Indonesia, East Timor, El Slvador, Guatemala, Nicragua, Brazil, Vietnam, Angola, Iran, etc, etc. Yet either nobody knew or nobody cared. Why would this be any different?

Everything is within the realm of possibility to some tiny degree, which makes that statement effectively worthless. But I'll bet my net worth that the U.S. Government did not carry out this attack. What are you willing to wager on your worthless charges?

Nothing. I'm not a gambler. However, I wouldn't gamble my net worth on someting that would have a 99% chance of coming up in my favour, so that doesn't mean very much.

We didn't need an excuse, Congress had already passed a very tough resolution against Iraq recommending regime change while Clinton was in office. And Iraq was on Bush's agenda during the election campaign 3 years ago. It was a popular issue long before the unconnected events of 11 Sep.

So you don't think Sept. 11 provided any impetus at all to Bush's war plans on Iraq?

And what good does legislation expanding the powers of an all powerful conspiratorial government who is willing to lie and murder its own citizens anyway? Do the logic. Your paranoia is the most obvious fact here.

It may be lying and mass murdering, but it isn't all powerful - yet. It wants to become all-powerful.

Whom are you speaking of here when you talk of terrorists in the U.S.?

The former commander of the Shah's prison system lives in teh US, as does one of Pol Pot's henchmen, many Cubans who hijacked planes to fly to the US, and many former Contras, to say nothing of the Americans responsible for atrocities in Korea (if there are any still alive, that is), Vietnam, Indonesia, Iraq, and the various 'secret wars' that the CIA ran in Central America and Indochina.

I assume when you speak of Fort Benning, you are referring to the former School of the Americas, where Latin American military people came to train. Take a good look at the recent history of Latin America and compare it to other post colonial regions of the planet in terms of attrocities, economics, liberty.

Yep, it's had a very bad time with all three. The SOA has provided training to some of the worst human rights abusers in the region, as attested to by many international human rights organizations. All this was backed the US.

This region has come very far in the last 50 years despite not being all that wealthy in terms of resources, nor being located very close to the wealthier parts of the globe.

Oh be serious. Central America is located closer to the US than Europe is. Brazil is one of the richest nations in the world in natrual resources.

We have certainly made our share of mistakes there during the Cold War era, but we have done far more good than harm.

Glad to know that you consider US posturing to outweigh a mountain of corpses and nations impoverished.

Almost every country in Latin America has a democratically elected government,

So this magically absolves you of responsibility for all your atrocities?

The relatively few casualties which were incurred during this period in the region vs what would have been had the U.S. let it fend for itself against communist attempts to subvert tips the scales firmly in favor of the U.S. policy of resisting communist infiltration.

Please enlighten me, just how many people have died in Cuba since Castro took power? For that matter, how many people were killed in Eastern europe by the communists? The general practise in Cold War LAtin America wasn't to imprison dissidents, it was hack them to bits and leave them by the side of the road somewhere.

If you really believe this stuff, then why aren't you (personally) making war on the U.S.? Why waste your time on democracy games and other such trivia when your duty must be to resist and destroy the biggest threat to all things good since the Nazis?

Because at the moment there's absolutely squat that I can do. Would you have expected a 14 year old in, say, Argentina, to go out and persoanlly make war on Nazi Germany?

EDIT: Quite apart from that, vilence is against the US will acheive absolutely nothing, because the single most militarily powerful nation on Earth is the US.

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
http://www.americanstateterrorism.co...edUranium.html

Read that link, then repeat that statement.

That is an interesting link, an anti-american link that shows this proof, what a suprise.


ACK!

[GeneralTacticus]

Well, considering the effect that DU has on areas that it's used in, it would be rather hard to find a site that both contained this proof and wa spro-american, wouldn't it?

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Well, considering the effect that DU has on areas that it's used in, it would be rather hard to find a site that both contained this proof and wa spro-american, wouldn't it?

You are probably right, but find me a link about DU and just DU, no anti anything.

ACK!

[GeneralTacticus]

I'll look, but in the meantime: where do you think the epidemic of cancer in southern Iraq after the Gulf War came from?

EDIT: well, here's a link, don't know if it meets your standards of being only about DU: http://www.iacenter.org/depleted/mettoc.htm

[GeneralTacticus]

And another one: http://www.who.int/inf-fs/en/fact257.html

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
I'll look, but in the meantime: where do you think the epidemic of cancer in southern Iraq after the Gulf War came from?

EDIT: well, here's a link, don't know if it meets your standards of being only about DU: http://www.iacenter.org/depleted/mettoc.htm

You should have posted this one first. It is an American Website. The Foundation is in New York.

I worked with DU for 5 years so this is interesting to me.




If this had been posted on, say, a white supremacist website, I would have doubted that, too.

ACK!

[DinoDoc]

This thread certainly took a turn toward the Twilight Zone when the conspiracy nut appeared.

[GeneralTacticus]

You should have posted this one first. It is an American Website. The Foundation is in New York.

I didn't know it existed until you asked me to look.

This thread certainly took a turn toward the Twilight Zone when the conspiracy nut appeared.

How so? Are you denying the examples I've provided of the US government committing mass murder?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
How so? Are you denying the examples I've provided of the US government committing mass murder?

What I am actually saying is that saying a) that the OBL videotape is fake and b) the American government staged the 9/11 attacks without providing anything that could remotely be considered proof (No, americanstateterrorism.com doesn't count.) qualifies you for the title of resident conspiracy nut. Let's try to deal with what people actually say without reading too much into them, shall we?

[Edan]

In case anyone's interested, and to balance the playing field, here's a government webpage on Depleted Uranium.

DinoDoc: I'll keep a look out for Rod Serling giving a monologue into thin air.

[GeneralTacticus]

What I am actually saying is that saying a) that the OBL videotape is fake and b) the American government staged the 9/11 attacks without providing anything that could remotely be considered proof (No, americanstateterrorism.com doesn't count.)

Why not? Don't like the name? Argue against what it actually says. Don't you consider it wee bit suspicious that when the US air force was finally scrambled to protect the Pentagon, the planes were ordered in from Langley, rather than Andrews? During the 7 minute delay that this caused, the plane hit the Pentagon.

[Edan]

Didn't Al Jazeera interview a number of Al Qaeda members who admitted that Al Qaeda was behind the attacks?

[GeneralTacticus]

In case anyone's interested, and to balance the playing field, here's a government webpage on Depleted Uranium.

Nice to have an alternative viewpoint, but in this case I would consider this equivalent to tobacco company doing research on the health effects of smoking.

[GeneralTacticus]

Didn't Al Jazeera interview a number of Al Qaeda members who admitted that Al Qaeda was behind the attacks?

Did they? I have no idea. Then again, it should be remembered that Van Der Lubbe also admitted to setting the Reichstag fire...

[Edan]

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/...aim/index.html

[Edan]

I don't know the details about this but...

Don't you consider it wee bit suspicious that when the US air force was finally scrambled to protect the Pentagon, the planes were ordered in from Langley, rather than Andrews? During the 7 minute delay that this caused, the plane hit the Pentagon.

So it's easier for you to believe that the US was behind the conspiracy, then to reason that the government f***ed up, and got caught with their pants down?

[GeneralTacticus]

Interesting. I guess that gets rid of the theory that Al Quaeda was merely a convenient scapegoat, unless it was colluding with the US government, which, considering their goals and beliefs, and the fact that a lot of them were killed in Afghanistan, is highly unlikely.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Why not? Don't like the name? Argue against what it actually says.

The bias of the site is readily made apparent to anyone that cares to look at it. I'm just as likely to get an objective analysis of facts there as I am from indymedia.com or a Pat Buchanan book. Now let's get back to you providing something resembling proof to back up your major accussations otherwise you are no better than a Holocaust denier in terms of credibility.

[GeneralTacticus]

So it's easier for you to believe that the US was behind the conspiracy, then to reason that the government f***ed up, and got caught with their pants down?

The official role of Andrews Air Force base is to defend Washington D.C. airspace, which would mean that if a hijacked plane was heading for Pentagon, they would scrambled an aircraft form it by default. The fact that they didn't would seem to indicate that they were ordered not to, for whatever reason.

[GeneralTacticus]

The bias of the site is readily made apparent to anyone that cares to look at it. I'm just as likely to get an objective analysis of facts there as I am from indymedia.com or a Pat Buchanan book. Now let's get back to you providing something resembling proof to back up your major accussations otherwise you are no better than a Holocaust denier in terms of credibility.

Apart from the fact that it frequently refers to the US as the world's leading terrorist nation, what is there to back that up? Considering some of the stuff that's on the site, I think that would be qite an appropriate label.

[DinoDoc]

You're still dancing around the main point.