Salonika - Page 2

XarXo · January 14, 2003, 12:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Asterothe
You are pathetic.

More pathetic is to recall a city to an ugly name like "Famagusta" in the middle of the XX century with an illegal occupation.

XarXo · January 14, 2003, 12:32

Quote:

Originally posted by Cvetin

Greetings from Macedonia

Macedonia?

Ah! Vardaria!!

Switch · January 14, 2003, 17:03

I would like to respond to that remark about N. Americans not having any idea about national animosities......First, I will agree that most of us have no idea about such animosity. We live in a land of peace, with the last war being waged intracontinentally being the War of 1812. Despite political and social differences, America and Canada are friends.
Frankly, most of us can't understand why in the world you people fight and argue over reasons that occured much too long ago. Put aside your differences. As much as I wish Canada had Alaska (our map looks odd without it), or that previous PMs hadn't sold out to american capitalism, I don't hate them for it.
Yes, the problems we've had were quite less severe than between Greece and Turkey, but....so what? Stop punishing people for what their forefathers did. To relate to LotR, Aragorn is Isildur's heir, not Isildur himself. He does not have the same weakness, the same evil. The same is about the Turks and Greeks.

And BTW, though I'm not Bulgarian myself, my baba and dedo were....moved to Canada not much after WWI.
I don't know many words though...I forget them at the moment, but I know them.

Azeem · January 14, 2003, 17:29

Well said, Switch.

Palaiologos · January 15, 2003, 12:27

Do you really consider that LoR argument as a serious one?

And i really do not think that 1974AD and 1996AD (Turkey came close to war with Greece) are that long ago....

Palaiologos · January 15, 2003, 12:34

Moreover the Turkish strategical goals have not changed since the early 20th century-i.e control of the Aegean.

Because war has occured quite often between the two nations(in any political form-from Byzantine Empire and the Ottomans to modern Greece and Turkey), animosity has arisen. There is no animosity in the genes of the Turks and Greeks, but as long as somebody wants something the other has, animosity will continue. The Mongols for example were far more brutal and barbaric than the Turks, but were Byzantium's closest allies simply because their strategical interests were the same.

And BTW that argument about Canada and the USA is at best, naive.

The USA have not waged genocidal wars against Canada, nor have they driven from their homes millions of people-homes they had founded more than 3.000 yeas ago.

Azeem · January 15, 2003, 13:10

Quote:

The USA have not waged genocidal wars against Canada, nor have they driven from their homes millions of people-homes they had founded more than 3.000 yeas ago.

No, they haven't. But settlers (that called themselves "Americans") have done such things to the Native Americans. Despite that, there still is somewhat of a "healing" process going on and campaigns for reconciliation.

Switch · January 15, 2003, 17:01

First, I wasn't using the LotR thing as an argument. It just said best what I meant (blame people for their mistakes, not their ancestors).

But, since it seems that the animosity isn't based on heritage, but more on one country wanting what the other one has....well, that just moreso increases my belief that most politicians are childish at best

.

And then to put a hatred against a whole country for what their leaders decide...Frankly, during WW1, the soldiers had the right idea. Despite the war being waged by their leaders, at Christmas time they sat down and even traded Christmas gifts. THat is true humanity.

Yes, I may be naive, but I'm quite thankful for the fact that I haven't learned otherwise firsthand. What a life it must be to live with a hatred against a whole other nation and culture

Forget our differences, and let's just

!

Turk Man · January 16, 2003, 19:37

you are ant turkjack ass

Turk Man · January 16, 2003, 19:39

what the hell is with you Palaiologos?

CrONoS · January 16, 2003, 20:17

=DELETED BY CRONOS_QC=POST 2 X

CrONoS · January 16, 2003, 20:29

"Wear the grudge like a crown of negativity.
Calculate what we will or will not tolerate.
Desperate to control all and everything.
Unable to forgive your scarlet lettermen
And we're sinking deeper."

If Greece can hate turk... holy ****, Native-amerindians got to hate us so much.... and palestinian got to hate Israel, Ireland got to hate British, me I got to hate many people, like my ex-girlfriend...

and all over the world, people got to hate eachother.
I can understand what you said Palaiologos but, I cannot agree with you...
Anyone seen the movie "Bowling for Columbine" by Michael Moore?

Turk Man · January 17, 2003, 21:03

No more fight on this subject.

Palaiologos · January 17, 2003, 21:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Turk Man
you are ant turkjack ass

I am glad that sound arguments have finally entered this conversation.

Palaiologos · January 17, 2003, 22:10

Quote:

Originally posted by Switch
First, I wasn't using the LotR thing as an argument. It just said best what I meant (blame people for their mistakes, not their ancestors).

But, since it seems that the animosity isn't based on heritage, but more on one country wanting what the other one has....well, that just moreso increases my belief that most politicians are childish at best

.

And then to put a hatred against a whole country for what their leaders decide...Frankly, during WW1, the soldiers had the right idea. Despite the war being waged by their leaders, at Christmas time they sat down and even traded Christmas gifts. THat is true humanity.

Yes, I may be naive, but I'm quite thankful for the fact that I haven't learned otherwise firsthand. What a life it must be to live with a hatred against a whole other nation and culture

Forget our differences, and let's just

!

Look, i agree with you. I too would like to live in a country like Canada or Iceland where everything is peaceful(Or Saudi Arabia-no taxes!) but i do not.
Instead i live in a country surrounded unfortunately by hostile neighbores throughout its history, a country that its very independance is at stake.
Plus, i think that the Greeks hate the turks more than the Turks hate them because it is the Greeks who are the weakest.

That sort of "It is the evil leaders, not the people" arguments have been popular in greece lately, among the politicians. They could not be more wrong. It was not the officers of the Turkish army, but the troopers and civilians that performed the atrocities of 1922. Even if a direct order was given to eliminate all greeks and armenians, the pleasure with which that was executed and the lack of qualms about it, leaves no doubt as to the true feelings of the "average" Turk.

Sperricles · January 17, 2003, 22:10

Yes, I am a north American but married to a Brasilian and has lived in more than just those 2 countries and speaks more than just those two languages.

I thought the whole point of civ, is that we are rewriting history the way we each want it. Sorry to offend you all but to little kids in the midwest, Moscow and Paris are really just cities in northern Idaho.

In MP, some players even enjoy purposely naming their cities to be cities of their rivals, exactly to create confusion or to make others think that they captured cities from another civ. If you don't like it....great this is your chance to conquer them and rename them whatever you want.
Thought: If civ were intended to duplicate history, it would be a movie not a game. The beauty of civ is the ability to rewrite history the way that Anybody wants to. And if you really want to be offended, I'm sure you'll find a way.

Azeem · January 17, 2003, 23:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Palaiologos
That sort of "It is the evil leaders, not the people" arguments have been popular in greece lately, among the politicians. They could not be more wrong. It was not the officers of the Turkish army, but the troopers and civilians that performed the atrocities of 1922. Even if a direct order was given to eliminate all greeks and armenians, the pleasure with which that was executed and the lack of qualms about it, leaves no doubt as to the true feelings of the "average" Turk.

So you would continue hating all Turks (even Turkish children or people that don't know anything about what went on)? That's really sad...

G(R)EEK · January 18, 2003, 05:08

Yep, since us Greeks can conquer it all over again, and say,

Little turk,
Is it dark and lonely outside the EU? What you gonna do when they leave you out again? Invade?

Personally, again, I love PtW just because there ARE turks, which is my biggest complaint about previous civs.

That way, I can conquer, kill, genocide em (can you say "raze city". What would happen historically anyway, had Benizelos won the '19 elections.

Firaxis could get out of the loop by calling it Thesalloniki like we all Greeks do, and which is the name anyway.

I fully realize that there is a Turk somewhere over there thinking the same as I do. Now is your chance to conquer Greece. (Only chance you 'll ever get)

And to our resident Skopjan.... When will Albanians own you, and just who will you turn to for help when that happens? Are you by any chance an Albanian? Or were you assimilated to a Slav?

If you are thinking of Genocide, think Micrasia '22 (although Turks now call it Anatolia), or what they did to Armenians back in '15.

And to everyone doubting this, please do all visit Thessaloniki, as is today, and see if ANYONE speaks that jibberish also known as "Skopian"

And once again...

Macedonia, was and always will be Greek, basically most of Northern Greece is Macedonia, the home of the greatest GREEK hero Alexander. If any of you asks why did former Vardaria call itself Macedonia, well, think all the pornosites titled nasd.gov and cnm.com etc going for hits.

Wish we could (TM) history. We 'd own it. As is, you just can't (TM) heroes.

Daily joke: Turkey "Civilization" (or did they wait for PtW to have one...)

G(R)EEK · January 18, 2003, 05:24

namely the Turks:

I say, let go all hatred, and let us all live happily ever after.

Will they?
Cyprus 1974 is the answer. We were also friends back then if I remember correctly.

Turkey right now, speaks of Muslims in Thrace as Turks and wants to "liberate" them.

They also want the Aegean archipelago. (after they learn to swim)

So, basically, we want nothing they got, and they want most of what we got.

Does that seem like we 're getting somewhere?

Simitis, our PM, is trying to "bring them in the light" by making them embrace EU standards and practices, (example in EU no country seeks to conquer its neighbor, military stays in barracks, and there is freedom of speach). It may be the only way for us.

As I said before, we want nothing of them. Basically they see that as a strategic weakness to be exploited. EU for them (if they continue their present course) will be the "grabbing game".

I so much want to be wrong here.

You spoke before of Canada and Us. How about if on your borders you had an Islamic Military dictatorship with 700.000 soldiers on your border? (That is basically Turkey)

-To anyone thinking Turkey is a Democracy, google its constitution, and it army. You will see that there is a "Military coucil" """overseeing

""" civil rule. Yea right, and Hitler was a good choir boy caught smoking.

arslankhan · January 18, 2003, 13:34

What exactly does Greece have that causes Turkey to slobber and make grasping gestures? If its so great, maybe we might want some of that here in the USA. Also, I think Hitler was more like a good smoker that got caught with a choirboy.

Azeem · January 18, 2003, 13:55

Quote:

Originally posted by G(R)EEK
Yep, since us Greeks can conquer it all over again, and say,

Little turk,
Is it dark and lonely outside the EU? What you gonna do when they leave you out again? Invade?

Personally, again, I love PtW just because there ARE turks, which is my biggest complaint about previous civs.

That way, I can conquer, kill, genocide em (can you say "raze city". What would happen historically anyway, had Benizelos won the '19 elections.

Firaxis could get out of the loop by calling it Thesalloniki like we all Greeks do, and which is the name anyway.

I fully realize that there is a Turk somewhere over there thinking the same as I do. Now is your chance to conquer Greece. (Only chance you 'll ever get)

And to our resident Skopjan.... When will Albanians own you, and just who will you turn to for help when that happens? Are you by any chance an Albanian? Or were you assimilated to a Slav?

If you are thinking of Genocide, think Micrasia '22 (although Turks now call it Anatolia), or what they did to Armenians back in '15.

And to everyone doubting this, please do all visit Thessaloniki, as is today, and see if ANYONE speaks that jibberish also known as "Skopian"

And once again...

Macedonia, was and always will be Greek, basically most of Northern Greece is Macedonia, the home of the greatest GREEK hero Alexander. If any of you asks why did former Vardaria call itself Macedonia, well, think all the pornosites titled nasd.gov and cnm.com etc going for hits.

Wish we could (TM) history. We 'd own it. As is, you just can't (TM) heroes.

Daily joke: Turkey "Civilization" (or did they wait for PtW to have one...)

My, aren't you a "pleasant" person.

If you're so hateful of Turks, then why don't you go get your government to invade Turkey and put them all in concentration camps? You would love that wouldn't you? You would simply love seeing the decomposing bodies of Turkish children litter the streets, wouldn't you?

Or if you're so hateful, why don't you go to Turkey yourself and commit mass murder?

The more you hate, the less human you become.

Argos65987 · January 18, 2003, 15:07

UNESCO Constitution:
Since wars begin in the minds of men, it is in the minds of men that the defenses of peace must be constructed.

Frederick Moore Vinson (1890-1953):
Wars are not acts of God. They are caused by man, by man-made institutions, by the way in which man has organized his society. What man has made, man can change.
Speech at Arlington National Cemetery (Memorial Day, 1945)

John Lennon (1940-1980):
When we say "War is over if you want it," we mean that if everyone demanded peace instead of another TV set, we'd have peace.

Mohandas Gandhi:
An eye for eye only ends up making the whole world blind.

Peace everyone, time to move on.

Palaiologos · January 18, 2003, 16:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Argos65987
UNESCO Constitution:
Since wars begin in the minds of men, it is in the minds of men that the defenses of peace must be constructed.

Frederick Moore Vinson (1890-1953):
Wars are not acts of God. They are caused by man, by man-made institutions, by the way in which man has organized his society. What man has made, man can change.
Speech at Arlington National Cemetery (Memorial Day, 1945)

John Lennon (1940-1980):
When we say "War is over if you want it," we mean that if everyone demanded peace instead of another TV set, we'd have peace.

Mohandas Gandhi:
An eye for eye only ends up making the whole world blind.

Peace everyone, time to move on.

Sorry argos65987, but what kind of crap is that?Who the hell is frederick vinson and who cares about UNESCO?
We downhere don't even care about the EU. Every time
a new EU law passes on, that we don't like, we say "f*ck it" and ignore it.
When another country occupies your national soil, as Turkey did in 1996, will you say peace on earth, love everybody and move on?

No, propper reaction would be an ultimatum and a subsequent declaration of war.

Turk Man · January 18, 2003, 16:30

the Geeks are killer too,when they took over Izmir in 1920.

Turk Man · January 18, 2003, 16:34

YOU THINK THAT TURKEY WOULD BETTER OFF UNDER GREEK RULE:Argue:

Rebel67 · January 18, 2003, 20:01

Palaiologos, aren't you a predudiced little sod. From my point of view you and G(R)EEK sound no better then the Turks you say commited atrocities against Greeks (Don't know enough about your history to know if this is true)

Quote:

That way, I can conquer, kill, genocide em (can you say "raze city". What would happen historically anyway, had Benizelos won the '19 elections.

I hope you don't really believe this, if you do your a sick, twisted and sad person, and I hope you arn't examples of typical Greeks.

Quote:

We downhere don't even care about the EU.

If you don't care about the EU why did you join the Euro?

These forums arent the place for this kind of conversation, you should give up your pre formed prejudices, and learn to get along with people, as they are human beings, just like you.

The Dark Lord · January 18, 2003, 23:12

For one thing, it drives me crazy when I see certain cities in the hands of others: when they were founded by others, that is. In other words, I agree with Palaiologos.

Personally, I do not feel that Palaiologos is being particularly prejudiced. He is just being nationalistic. And his country WAS ruled by the Turks for hundreds of years. And they DID start a civil war in Cyprus. And they DID commit genocide.

Not that the Greeks didn't commit genocide, start civil wars, or occupy other countries. They did. Just because the Greeks may have killed off large groups of people at times doesn't mean the Turks had any right to do so.

And I see nothing wrong with taking vengeance by destroying a computer representation of the civ utterly, killing all their citizens. Better that than doing it for real, obviously!

And the best part of Civ, for me, is not to create an alternate history.
It is to recreate actual history, and play it as closely as possible to reality: with some twists.

That is why I play real world maps. That is why I like maps with preplaced cities and 31 civs. That is why I am eagerly awaiting the modern world scenario that will eat up all of my system resources.
That is why I play Civ.

Palaiologos · January 19, 2003, 12:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Rebel67
I hope you don't really believe this, if you do your a sick, twisted and sad person, and I hope you arn't examples of typical Greeks.

If you don't care about the EU why did you join the Euro?

These forums arent the place for this kind of conversation, you should give up your pre formed prejudices, and learn to get along with people, as they are human beings, just like you.

Actually most Greeks do not know exactly why they hate the Turks, they just do.
I can at least back it up with historical evidence.

It may be hard for you to understand but they are this country's ancestral enemies.

It was a politician's decision. Referendums and public opinion are stuff never heard of in Greece. Anyway, greed would be the most appropiate answer.

I do not consider someone who tortured my grandmother, cut her belly up to kill her unborn child, and hanged her ears around his neck as a trophy, a human being.
And people like him were not leaders or officers but average Turks.

And Greece may have killed Turks and others at various points in history but never in the horrid manner described above. Had it been like that, someone else ,besides Turks, would have complained from time to time.

Azeem · January 19, 2003, 15:38

I see. But there may be some Turks out there that want reconciliation. You can't say that they're ALL evil, since that would be flat out prejudice (prejudice="pre-judge"). The trick is to find those people.

Rebel67 · January 19, 2003, 17:33

There is no point meeting hatred with hatred. That doesn't solve anything. The Turkish soldiers who commited the atrocities were obviously wrong, but not every turk is a member of the army.

It is also disgusting what people will do to their fellow human beings if their leaders tell them what they are doing is right, and this is not helped by any prejudices those people might have.

What happened to your Grandmother is awful, but it does not justify killing every Turk. Would you kill an innocent child just to get revenge?

There is a difference between nationalism and irrational hatred. Problems in the world cannot be solved by war and mass murder, but through diplomacy AND trying to understand the other sides point of view.