Salonika - Page 3

Turk Man · January 19, 2003, 18:49

this topic will keep on going

Turk Man · January 19, 2003, 18:52

not turk are bad ,it is what happed to them that make them this way.

Azeem · January 19, 2003, 19:33

I recall reading an essay written by a Turk speaking about why it is so hard for Turks to admit grave error concerning the actions they have done in the past. He said that at the end of the Ottoman Empire, the Turks were in a situation similar to what the Germans were in prior to the rise of the Nazis. The Turks, like the Germans, were losing their power after many centuries of prestige, and felt that their very existence and their very identity was being threatened by other world powers. Also like the way Nazi Germany brought the Holocaust upon many innocent Jews, the Turks were desparate, thus they made other groups scapegoats, blaming them for their problems. As a result, many terrible things happened. This Turkish historian parallels the terror committed by the Turkish nation to the terror committed by the Germans in World War II.

The Japanese during World War II, did many terrible things to my people in China (such as raping, pillaging, murdering, and even testing diseases and weapons on unarmed civilians), but I do not hold a grudge against them. It makes no sense hating everyone. But if you hate specifically the people (but not those who were not involved) that have committed the atrocities, then that is understandable.

XarXo · January 19, 2003, 21:13

The problem with Turkey is not muslim, almost for me, the problem is that Turkey seems an Asian civ that tries to use the Istanbul and older greek territories conquest as an excuse to enter in Europe. And it seems not european.

The main problem is: A nation can be european if it conquest an european civ (Byzance) ? What will happen if China invade France, for example, and 1000 years after it aks to include Fran-Chin (

) in UE?

So... WHAT IS EUROPE?

I feel that Turkey should create and UE-like of countries with -stan ending, this is all middle asia except Georgia and Armenia.

And Russia? Is european? The answer is crealy YES. It must enter in UE.

The problem is that the -stan countries are very poor and islam-paralized and Turkey don't want this.

The best solution for Turkey is create just an Alliance with UE, and be the main country of the development of the -stan countries. This will give capitability to Turkey and became the Germany-France of "Union-stan"

The idea for Russia is became the bridge with asia using the transiberian rail (modernized, of course, with UE money

) for connect with China, Mongolia, (is tecnically possible, and is projected) Japan, Korea (N & S) and Souther Asia by China.

Money, money, money...

But only are my ideas.

Master Zen · January 19, 2003, 21:24

Quote:

Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon

Americans! Remove Houston and Dallas from your registers! Historically they were part of another country once!

...and Los Angeles, San Francisco, San Diego, Phoenix...etc. etc. etc., yet I find no problem with this. I think Civ should reflect the city they are most associated with. These cities were founded by the Spanish, became Mexican, later taken (ehem, stolen) by the US. But most people associate them with the US so that's what civ's cities they should be.

Frankly I don't undestand what's to fuss about something that can be so trivially altered in the Editor. Yeah, they spelled some Aztec stuff wrong too, nothing I can't change in 2 minutes instead of launching a greek vs. turk hate thread.

Turk Man · January 20, 2003, 15:46

turkey need to have help in
gov.

G(R)EEK · January 20, 2003, 18:52

... of the fact that my mothers' father was the only one who survived when Turks slaugthered all of his family, back in 1922. It was Trapezounta, Pontos, or Trabzon where that is today.

Part of the anger you see from me is because I speak for all of them. I wish they (or their ancestors) were here to speak for themselves.

My father's father had a brother in the Army. He was a lieutenant fighting in the campaign we Greeks call the Micrasian Catastrophe of '22. He was captured and killed. I am not sad about him. He was a soldier and he did his duty. Nor do I blame his opponents. That was war. But killing all of my other grandfathers kin is genocide. Pure and simple.

I said it before and I will say it again. If anyone cares to read what I wrote, we don't want any part of Turkey. We don't.

But Turkey hasn't changed. In 1974, when it invaded Cyprus, it slaughtered 1900+ people and buried them in mass graves. If you add to that the millions of Armenians, Greeks, and Kurds slaughtered 1915-1923 well you may reach Holocaust proportions. That to me equates Turkey with Nazi Germany.

That is something to be ashamed of. No justification of any kind is possible. I wonder how I would feel about all of that were I an educated Turk. Luckily, I won't ever have to.

---------
I do believe that the Turkish people if left on their devices would probably leave all that in the past, and carry on with both Europe, and Modernisation. The main problem is that Turkey today is basically a hidden dictatorship. If the army reatreats back into the barracks there may be hope. I SO MUCH HOPE SO!

Europe can help Turkey put the Military back into the Barracks. But Turkey must be willing to do that. Not just fake it.

ktaek · January 21, 2003, 00:41

Any complaints you have against the Turks pales compared to the complaints that native Americans or native Australians have against the Europeans that massacred them in order to colonize those continents. And i'm sure anicent Greece had its share of imperialism that offended neighbors.

3000 years is nothing compared to how long native Americans were settled in the Americas.

Point is, if you're going to start listing every single grievance one culture has against another culture, you'll die of old age before you're done.

You can either look forward to making things better or sit and stew about the past and get nowhere.

Azeem · January 21, 2003, 02:11

If you want to go FAR back into history, then you can include my ancestors' greivances against the Chinese as well (even though I am technically "Chinese" now) as their culture was either destroyed or assimilated into the Empire and my ancestors, who were most likely mere peasants, were most likely the ones who were forced to toil and die building the Great Wall.

But as Ktaek mentioned, there are MANY other cultures out there that have experienced equally terrible things that the Native Americans, the Australian Aborigines, the Kurds, the Armenians, and the Greeks faced throughout history.

Argos65987 · January 21, 2003, 13:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Palaiologos

Sorry argos65987, but what kind of crap is that?

I don't know why I bother responding, but that kind of "crap" is saying that someone has to be the first to reachout towards his enemy (remember a guy named Jesus?). No one ever said it was easy. It is something to strive to achieve.

However, according to your "logic", Greeks should kill Turks for revenge, but then according to this line of thought, the Turks must then kill Greeks for revenge. Ergo, Palestinians must kill Israelis for revenge, and Israelis must kill Palestinians, Irish kill English, English kill Irish, etc, etc, etc. Sounds like a really well thought out plan.

As far as your original post about cities showing up in 2 different civs city lists - big deal, change it in the editor. If that is the worst thing that happened to you today, consider yourself lucky.

Master Zen · January 21, 2003, 15:19

Frankly I do agree somewhat with these angry greeks in the sense that it is not easy to forget a past injustice, most people from the US or UK might not understand this as they have never suffered a similar ordeal.

I do think, however, that the past can, and should, be forgotten if the aggressor side has shown honest intentions of reconcilliation and shows a different attitude towards the victim side. I do not know if this has happened (apparently not) in the Greek vs. Turk debate, so I cannot judge either side. As for ordinary people perpetrating genocide or crimes, I for the most part believe that most people in most countries DO show a subconcious agreement with the policies, whatever horrid, of their government with relation to other countries.

Anyway, hopefully things change with both your countries, may Turks forgive and repent their crimes of the past and may Greeks be willing to accept it when they do.

Fried-Psitalon · January 21, 2003, 16:22

Where is the thread/forum moderator?

This thread left PTW in the wings a long, long, LONG time ago. Why is it being allowed to continue?

(And yes, I'm jealous because the threads I write don't get as much airtime.

)

Turk Man · January 21, 2003, 19:55

by 1922 the turk had take back land that greek have take in 1920 when the ottoman's give a way.

Palaiologos · January 22, 2003, 09:47

Quote:

Originally posted by Azeem
I see. But there may be some Turks out there that want reconciliation. You can't say that they're ALL evil, since that would be flat out prejudice (prejudice="pre-judge"). The trick is to find those people.

I think this is the notion of racism in reverse.

Not all Turks are good, simply because a few are.

XarXo · January 22, 2003, 10:58

The main problem, as I see, is city names. More than a simply list of cities could be great the possibility to inser a name into each square of the map. So if you create a city *here* will have the name that the map creator want. This is good for avoid suck-name cities in MP games.

Turk Man · January 22, 2003, 19:45

turk have their bad side and thier bad side.so everone as their sides!

Turk Man · January 23, 2003, 17:27

this came to be becasue of the city list on the game

Cvetin · January 24, 2003, 11:47

Quote:

Originally posted by G(R)EEK
Yep, since us Greeks can conquer it all over again, and say,

Little turk,
Is it dark and lonely outside the EU? What you gonna do when they leave you out again? Invade?

Personally, again, I love PtW just because there ARE turks, which is my biggest complaint about previous civs.

That way, I can conquer, kill, genocide em (can you say "raze city". What would happen historically anyway, had Benizelos won the '19 elections.

Firaxis could get out of the loop by calling it Thesalloniki like we all Greeks do, and which is the name anyway.

I fully realize that there is a Turk somewhere over there thinking the same as I do. Now is your chance to conquer Greece. (Only chance you 'll ever get)

And to our resident Skopjan.... When will Albanians own you, and just who will you turn to for help when that happens? Are you by any chance an Albanian? Or were you assimilated to a Slav?

If you are thinking of Genocide, think Micrasia '22 (although Turks now call it Anatolia), or what they did to Armenians back in '15.

And to everyone doubting this, please do all visit Thessaloniki, as is today, and see if ANYONE speaks that jibberish also known as "Skopian"

And once again...

Macedonia, was and always will be Greek, basically most of Northern Greece is Macedonia, the home of the greatest GREEK hero Alexander. If any of you asks why did former Vardaria call itself Macedonia, well, think all the pornosites titled nasd.gov and cnm.com etc going for hits.

Wish we could (TM) history. We 'd own it. As is, you just can't (TM) heroes.

Daily joke: Turkey "Civilization" (or did they wait for PtW to have one...)

EEEEK, what's happening with this thread?
Only yesterday I checked on Apolton to see my Greek, Turk and
other buddies and how your thread is going and it's gone
overboard
G(R)EEK, malaka...
Since I don't have the luxury of beign unemployed and peddling
hatred on the net all day I won't go into all the stpd things
you write about Macedonia. But I can't be quiet on you
praising the great Greek Hero Alexandar. I don't object to
Greeks appreciating Alexandar, I object to ****** smearing
Alexandar. I have included a fragment from an article by a
contemporary MKD philosophers Ferid Muhic (a Bosniak Muslim
living in Macedonia) on Alexandar. Try to fit Alexandar
preaching brotherhood among nations and wedding Persians with
Macedonians/Greeks into your "burn 'em all" philosophy, you
little pustis

...he gave commands to his generals and soldiers not to insult
or humiliate the young women and daughters of Persia but to
treat them as their lawful wives. Consequently, he ordered
"the marriage of the worlds" at the great wedding, an event
which, according to the sources, united over 20,000 couples in
matrimony. Thus, the idea of Alexander, as quoted by the
Turkish admiral Reis Piri, was identical to his motto: "One
who learns from perfection becomes himself perfect!" The same
author emphasises the characteristic of "Iskender" never to
judge people by "whether they were dressed in silk or in rags,
whether they were rich or poor", but "whether they were
capable of living together with other people by divine and
human laws...

Palaiologos · January 26, 2003, 08:03

Cvetin i do not agree with all that G(R)EEK says, but i do not think it is appropiate to call him malaka and pustis.

You are getting off the line here.

For the Alexander issue:

Yes Alexander indeed tried to blend Greek and Asian culture by marrying Greeks with Asians and training young Persians in the Greek army.

The Macedonians resented this, and his veterans, who had followed him in the depths of Asia and India and had not seen their homes for 13 years, felt betrayed.

And that brought his downfall.

Multinational cultures simply do not last.

Cvetin · January 26, 2003, 11:27

Hey thanks for the reply Pal, I was afraid I got the spelling wrong.
I know it's a little out of line calling GEEK names, but the guy's got some serious issues. So he was kicked out of what is now Turkey. I'm sorry for him, but as I write, there are at least 5 people in the office (and it's Sunday, so we're at half strenght) who were kicked out of Solun (Salonica), Lerin, Kostur, Kukus and other towns and cities in Aegean Macedonia (as we call it, or northern Greece) just for being Macedonians. So what? Does that mean we have to keep on hating each other? GEEK even hits at the Albanian attacks on Macedonia in 2001 even though there are more Albanians in Greece then there are albanians in Macedonia. In the course of my work I was unfortunate enough to meet their current warchief and to see that this ruthless enemy is nthng more then a scared little putz (btw, some of their maps include chunks of Greece as well as Macedonia, so beware)

you say: Multinational cultures simply do not last.

Let's speak about this some day in Solun harbour over a Macburger and Coke, while listening to brit pop, dressed in turkish jeans. I may even hook you up with some cute Macedonian girls (just to prove that the spirit of Alexandar lives on

Cheers mate
Cvetin

Turk Man · January 27, 2003, 13:32

this is bull.....

IRON_BRIGADE · January 27, 2003, 14:57

HEHHEHEHEHHEHEHEHEHEHE

XarXo · January 28, 2003, 10:25

I just want say this: Give to kurds a high autonomy level or independence and you will be able to EU. You can't enter as an european if you pretend put all the
-STAN countries inside. Or the capitol of a -STAN countries union or just another EU member, but not all.

Turk Man · January 28, 2003, 18:01

yes this is bull.....!

Turk Man · January 28, 2003, 18:02

why ,do we keep on going ?

XarXo · January 29, 2003, 11:24

The existance of Salonika in the Ottoman list is just because Turks doesn't have enough important (historical/cultural) cities . Just look that only Izmir has something interesting, Istambul is just a Byzance city "turkished".

Turks are people that just invaded something beautiful, is like the northern tribes in Rome.

Show me something beautiful made in Turkey that is made by turks, please. No more greek/byzance. Thanks.

BTW, there's any relation between earthquakes and the fact that turkish are on this area?

G(R)EEK · January 29, 2003, 11:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Cvetin

EEEEK, what's happening with this thread?
Only yesterday I checked on Apolton to see my Greek, Turk and
other buddies and how your thread is going and it's gone
overboard
G(R)EEK, malaka...
Since I don't have the luxury of beign unemployed and peddling
hatred on the net all day I won't go into all the stpd things
you write about Macedonia. But I can't be quiet on you
praising the great Greek Hero Alexandar. I don't object to
Greeks appreciating Alexandar, I object to ****** smearing
Alexandar. I have included a fragment from an article by a
contemporary MKD philosophers Ferid Muhic (a Bosniak Muslim
living in Macedonia) on Alexandar. Try to fit Alexandar
preaching brotherhood among nations and wedding Persians with
Macedonians/Greeks into your "burn 'em all" philosophy, you
little pustis

...he gave commands to his generals and soldiers not to insult
or humiliate the young women and daughters of Persia but to
treat them as their lawful wives. Consequently, he ordered
"the marriage of the worlds" at the great wedding, an event
which, according to the sources, united over 20,000 couples in
matrimony. Thus, the idea of Alexander, as quoted by the
Turkish admiral Reis Piri, was identical to his motto: "One
who learns from perfection becomes himself perfect!" The same
author emphasises the characteristic of "Iskender" never to
judge people by "whether they were dressed in silk or in rags,
whether they were rich or poor", but "whether they were
capable of living together with other people by divine and
human laws...

And here we go again.
For all the pety things you say, well, I won't bother answering. I don't wish to turn this into a shouting contest. A bosnian muslim quoting an Ottoman Admiral? Well, to each his own I guess. And if you intend to use his name well, call him by his OWN name ALEXANDROS ?,

It is weird isn't it? You are using all the Greek swear words correctly but you don't seem to KNOW his name. I don't care about your opinion about me. I do care what you call Big Al. But then had it not been for him you would have called your little country VARDARIA and be done with it.

Well never mind. Basically where we are today world is getting a big village is where we should be headed all along. I have no doubts that the world we would be living in today would be really different had Alexander lived longer. As for my work that is of my own concern, but I bet I make more money than you and if anything, I have a country that doesn't have a civil war or DOESN'T WORRY about Albanian revolution.

When it happens, I am really curious where you will go seeking refuge. I am.

Brotherhood in nations begins with each nation accepting itself and others for what they are.

For all your shouts you don't seem to denounce your country's policy of "True descendants of Alexander" and "Macedonian Brothers in Greek Borders, we don't forget you". Well you are a pathetic little YPOKRITHS (check that out in a dictionary to find out what that means)

I feel that in the future, if/when Turkey listens to its people not its Warmongers I truly believe that we will be friends. And when the bickering stops and Cyprus reunite we will be even more. If we don't feel threatened anymore there is so much we can do. We can.

At least the Turks don't pretend to be something they are not.

You "Macedonians" are historical Transvestites, trying desperately to pretend to be something you are not.

Next time you look into a history book try to remember what you are, if -that is- you already know.

XarXo · January 29, 2003, 12:31

Mmm, couldn't be more delicate?

At the end they are a country, just say that Vardaria is the good name.

Palaiologos · January 29, 2003, 16:47

Hmm....G(R)EEK are you sure than we live in a country that is not afraid of an Albanian revolt?

More than one million of their foul race live as immigrants within our borders. It won't be long before they are allowed to vote and form a political party of their own as they "constitute a large portion of the population, and must have political rights as the Greeks do". That particular Albanian party will propably get fundings from their acursed motherland and support their claims.

What would happen if at a momment of Greek political anarchy the albanian party uprises and calls its voters to take up arms for the benefit of Mother Albania?

Greece must do its utmost to support FYROM and prevent its colapse, as they form a excellent buffer state. Step two would be to drive out ALL albanians from the country.

If non Greeks are surprised by my answer, then it is my duty to inform them that the greek hate list goes:

1.Albanians.
2.Turks.
3.Citizens of FYROM.
4.Bulgarians.

Palaiologos · January 29, 2003, 16:50

Quote:

Originally posted by XarXo
The existance of Salonika in the Ottoman list is just because Turks doesn't have enough important (historical/cultural) cities . Just look that only Izmir has something interesting, Istambul is just a Byzance city "turkished".

Turks are people that just invaded something beautiful, is like the northern tribes in Rome.

Show me something beautiful made in Turkey that is made by turks, please. No more greek/byzance. Thanks.

BTW, there's any relation between earthquakes and the fact that turkish are on this area?

You are absolutely correct.

Izmir is "Smyrna" in Greek. It too was founded by Greeks. Ionian Greeks in 600BC.