Help on Monarch - FP + Victim selection

[joncnunn]

Well, a Golden Age is often as affective as a WLTPD in speeding up the FP.

[Arrian]

I recently fired up a Mongol game (along the lines of what Dominae said: exp/mil means you pretty much HAVE to be a bloodthirsty barbarian). Monarch, Standard across the board.

I got myself a nice starting spot (river, 2 cows, couple of bonus grass, horse) and gave it a go. My hut luck was crap: 25 gold, ceremonial burial and maps. 5 other civs on the continent: France, Japan, Korea, China, India.

Japan did me a favor: they declared war on me very early on. I had been researching HBR at 10% intending to a chariot upgrade, but I started on HBR too early, and found that I was still in basic expansion mode by the time I got it. I built up several horsemen (5 or so) and trotted on south to engage Japan's archers. Such a paltry force had I. Of course, I was adding too it as fast as I could. I admit to building a temple or two pre-war.

Then I got a leader, and the world rocked and spun. I got a settler into a relatively good FP spot in Japan(the "optimal" position was not available and actually still isn't in the industrial age) and rushed it. Shortly thereafter, leader #2 appeared and provided the Pyramids in the same city. MUWAHAHAH!

I hit France and took the Great Library (and destroyed them). I later hit Korea with Keshiks. They really aren't much of a unit, though I did actually get to take advantage of moving through mountains with them to hit one Korean city. Anybody think it's odd that it takes all of the Keshik's moves to traverse hills, but mountains are like flat lands? Anyway, I got a 3rd leader and moved my Palace to a more central spot, such that I now have pretty good coverage on my part of the continent (I'd say I have roughly 2/3 of it... maybe between 1/2 and 2/3, with China and India splitting the balance).

My bloodthirstness continued with a foray into Greece (medium-large island). This was actually a mistake, as I loaded the game after a couple of days off from it and had forgetten my target selection (Rome). Greece was the more advanced of the two and had 1 luxury. Rome was backward and had 2. Oops. I took 1 city (actually a raze 'n rebuild), they got nationalism, and I lost 1/2 my attack force trying to take Athens. So I settled for the luxury supply.

Rome (medium-large island plus a collection of small-medium islands) obliged me by attacking me, and I brought in China via MPP (also concerned about the Indian-Greek MPP). I have gutted them, and have taken control of their luxuries, giving me all 8.

In short, I've won. Funny, when I built my horsemen and went off to war with Japan, I was just doing it for shits and giggles, figuring I'd quit shortly. Not much hut luck, expansion difficulties (land other than capitol wasn't very good: jungle immediately north, desert immediately south, ocean east, 2 city sites westward lay France) and early war with a civ that can see horses right away. But the awesome power of 2 early leaders changed all of that.

-Arrian

[ducki]

Re: SVC - having played a bit more, I went back to reread that, but the images are not working, so it is a bit more difficult to "get".

Is there an expiration on images?

[Robber Baron]

Originally posted by Dominae
I'm with Theseus on this one: to really be an effective player (that is, to be comfortable somewhere in the 'Gray Zone'), you have to have tasted both the Light Side and the Dark Side in its purest forms.

Dominae

Nicely put. The reason to avoid any "Gray" area is to test how effective alternative strategic approaches can be.
For example, don't worry about falling behind on tech, in the dark side. Let the libraries slide. Rely on what folks over at CivFanatics call "the pointy stick" method of research (extorting techs in peace negotiations), combined with buying (only when necessary, only at a discount after several other civs have discovered them, only when tactically and immediately necessary to wage war -- e.g., feudalism). With a well-developed economy, lux/resource trading, and selective purchases, you can stay 2-3 techs behind but otherwise keep pace, and position yourself for breakaway (often as everyone makes their way through the industrial era).
Just as an experiment, try it and see how far you can take it. Set some internal groundrules (e.g., okay, I'll build temples and marketplaces, but no other cultural/happiness builds beyond my first ring of cities).

The problem with trying to have it all -- every improvement in every city; tech parity; as many luxes as you can find -- is that above the monarch level, you can't get it all. You have to make hard choices.

The alternative, of course, would be to reload the game and try turtling and outbuilding both Japan and the Mongols. Keep them off-balance, perhaps, by setting up alliances whenever one or the other declares war. But try playing with only minimal territorial expansion, and see what kind of opportunities that set of choices creates.

[ducki]

Originally posted by Theseus
2) Just once, do me a favor, don;t play Gray, don;t even play Dark... I want to see Center-of-a-Black-Hole Side!!!

Okay, Theseus, how's this for progress? (Edit: New game, so I mean progress towards the Black Hold Side.)
270BC, I'm about to start my 3rd war on my 3rd victim, though I'm worried about losses against Numidian Mercs. I'm primarily doing it to blow his GA, secondarily to try to stunt his growth a little.

I've already trimmed the Greeks very early and the Romans just as they were fielding Legions.

I lost out on the Library and the Pyramids(so sue me, man, I couldn't help it) and am working towards Monarchy with a Garden pre-build in Heliopolis - assuming I can slow it down by 1 turn.

No Leaders, not even any Elites.
Boy, now I see what a difference Militaristic makes.
/sigh

I know you're gonna give me grief about all those Libraries and that Courthouse, but I just switched to those after raping Rome. I might switch off the Courthouse for something else and put the FP in Veii if I ever get a leader, or maybe the FP in Heliopolis and move the Palace to Veii. Not sure. I may just leave the Palace alone and worry about the FP once I actually destroy Rome, after the Carthaginian Trimming.

[Dominae]

ducki, try pop-rushing your Temples. Asyut, for instance, efficiently completes a Temple if you pop rush it the turn of your screenshot: 20 Shields to go, 1 pop point is worth 20 Shields.

By the way, funny you picked what is probably the best builder civ to learn about the Dark Side. If you like yellow, GO ZULU!


Dominae

[Theseus]

Looks good... how many Horsemen do you have?

Nice tagline, btw!

[ducki]

Dominae - It's already 70BC and I'm just waiting for my Alliance with Rome to run out so I can make peace with Carthage, so that Temple is long built.

I didn't pick Egypt, the RNG did.
I was actually afraid I'd switched to Regent about the time of that screenshot, things were so easy. I'm learning to love the sword, or at least the horse.


Theseus - I forget, but it was probably close to 10 or 12 and about 6 Swords, but it might have been more, depending on where I was in the casualties & reinforcements cycle.


I got the Garden and am in Monarchy. Desperately need to find an enemy warrior to whack with a WC to start my GA off.

[ducki]

I think I may be getting the hang of this.

I beat Carthage down pretty seriously, left him two cities, took the capitol with the GLib and Colossus and am trying to fill in blank space before Rome does - all while shifting everything I have back to my Greece border for upgrading to Knights and a little conquest.

Unless something goes horribly wrong, I don't think it's possible for me to lose this game. I've only had 3 Elites so far, ZERO leaders, am on track to get Sun Tzu's and should be able to build either Sistine or Leo's after that.
A leader sure would make building my FP easy, though I really want to take over Rome/Veii for that, and that has to wait.

I split my Golden Age pretty evenly between units and improvements - being able to get a courthouse up in under 30 turns was a real treat in some cities, while others really needed the Marketplaces/Cathedrals. Well, not really "needed", but I couldn't help myself.


This game has definitely shown me the value of Militaristic, though. I don't need a lot of leaders, but a single Ancient Age leader doesn't seem too much to ask, especially when I've been at war for about 2/3 of the Ancient Age.

I may try Emperor unless someone thinks I just got a particularly easy Monarch game this time 'round.

[BRC]

especially when I've been at war for about 2/3 of the Ancient Age.

2/3 doesn't sound like Center-of-a-Black-Hole or whatever. Good job. Have you lost any Elites, or were you just not getting them??

[ducki]

Yeah, not Black-hole dark yet, but it's a helluva big step for me. It didn't feel very good until I looked at both the Minimap and the Histograph.

Then I realised what I'd been missing out on.

Mmmm... AI sacrifice....

[BRC]

Ducki,

I posted this in peterfharris' thread, and I just thought it would be useful for you, as this is my strategy at Monarch. It works very well, and there is not much danger in using it.

In the Ancient Age, I use oscillating war to extort techs and capture workers. I really do not initiate major offensives. I use horseman and spearman almost exclusively. The horsemen use their movement to capture workers and pillage terrain. Roads between cities and resources are the first to go. I will usually base these raids of of hills or mountains near their cities. If they send out archers or warriors, I make sure to hit them with the horsies. Spearman and Swordsman are ignored for the most part. I pillage just about everything I can get to with my limited strike force. Then, a few turns later, I work in toward one of their cities and call for peace. I can usually get almost all of their techs + gold. It is also important to grab their workers, even if you have to give up a tech to get them. I back out and find another target. Twenty turns later, I'm back. Without those workers, they have not been able to get roads connected, and they are in almost in the same condition as when I left them earlier (just with a new tech). Each subsequent round is more effective, as I have almost 0 casualties. I've started using this on Emperor, and it seems even more effective (relatively speaking), as you are not going to clear your continent in the Ancient Age. I save all my money and use it to upgrade my large amounts of horseman. Now, I start picking targets for extermination. I would definitely recommend that you give this a try, just to see how effective it is for you. A key to this is using to luxury slider to keep your production high. The value of the techs and resources gained, plus the long-term damage done to the other civs will more than make up for the money spent on the luxury slider. The luxury slider is very important early. Good luck.

I know that this method isn't true darkside, but I am at war with someone 99% of the time. In using this, you have to be disciplined and not buy the ancient era techs. You WILL extort them in your next peace treaty. You will really only be able to wipe out the closest civ, probably, but all the rest of them will be weaker. I just thought I would throw this out for you, as this has been very effective for me. Maybe you could incorporate pieces of this into your game.

P.S. I know you really like Industrial trait. I routinely end up with 50 or 60 captured workers by the time cavalry roll around. This relieves you of upkeep on your workers.

[Stuie]

Originally posted by ducki
I beat Carthage down pretty seriously, left him two cities, took the capitol with the GLib and Colossus...

I just switched to Monarch recently (having used Regent to perfect "my" mod), and first thing I found was that having the AI build wonders for me really has paid off. Sure I don't get the culture, but I usually only build for the effects of the wonder, not the culture. In my current game, I let the Iroquois build the Pyramids for me, then took them less than 20 turns later. Then I let the Americans build not only the Great Wall (which did complicate the conquest a bit - walls in every city) but Sun Tzu as well. As soon as Sun Tzu was finished, I declared war and slapped them with my Ansar rush. Three wonders for the price of about a dozen Ansars... not bad. And I got to keep most of the Ansars in the bargain.

[ducki]

I usually only really, really, really want 1 or 2 wonders per age.

The thing about Monarch that's really kicking my butt is the turns of production I keep losing because I'm not keeping a close enough eye on city growth and happiness.