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Old December 31, 2002, 03:25   #31
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"So, any vote for a conservative is manipulated?"

He's pretty conservative...

"Besides, after the lefties get done with it it won't be worth owning and we will have to put up with massive immigration from the North as well."

Sounding a bit Republican are we?

Yes, even the people in the Northern states will migrate into the wealthy southern states.

"No, I had the quotation marks in the right place."

Huh?

"History will tell, and history has shown time and time again how states that go for the liberal dream crash and burn.
The first was Rome, which had massive public assistance programs that drained the treasury so much that the legions could not be paid.
The USSR is a mess, although it was an extreme case of leftism.
East Germany is a wreck and even California is drowning in debt.
Now it is Europes turn, how fun it will be to watch the lefties make excuses for just plain bad management."

Yes, Rome's problems were because of public assistance (free bread and entertainment?). Not because of wars, corruption, or the high % of slaves... Then you talk about communists, which most of us have already gotten over as a horrible system (real world communism, not pure). California does control 1/5 of the world's money... Yes, Europe will perish, as well... The only world success is the Southern U.S., which has evolved to the point to perfection.
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Old December 31, 2002, 03:41   #32
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As much as I enjoy political debates, I'll attempt to get my basic feelings out right now:

Capitalistism suck. Every government that has ever been has sucked. It's all based on material things and power. The only thing that matters, really, is your own happiness. To think you have the exact mix of policies, conservatism, and whatever is absurd. All of that is bullsh*t. Thousands of years of advancement have done what? We live longer? Can have objects? Build things? But what does that REALLY matter? Thousands of years ago, we hunted or gathered or whatever for an hour or so, and spent hours playing with our kids. Civilization will always be a struggle, and accomplish nothing. The masses will always be stupid and easily manipulated, and moderately intelligent people will have the greed and lust to manipulate them. Nothing has really changed. It's so great to live in a capitalist society, where money and power are now openly sought out.
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Old December 31, 2002, 04:43   #33
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WOW bobbo008
I guess I missed a post or two of yours.

I will attempt to make up

Capitalism is the only economic system that will ever work for humans. Everything else tried has limited advancement and ruined countries.

Where in the world did you get the work for an hour and enjoy the day idea for ancient man.

Actually, they struggled to survive. Most only lived until 40 or so and even in Russia of the 1700's, half of all children did not live past the first year.

Le Pen may be conservative by European standards, but by US standards he is still a liberal, just not the typical pseudo-communist type that is in charge now.

I am a Constitutionalist, not a Republican.
Pick up a copy of the Constitution of the US and read it and see how much of it we (the USA) ignore and have for the last 150 years.

The Northern states are the weathy ones, the South has been the poor ones ever since the end of the civil war at which time they were plundered by the northern armies and their lands ravaged.

As usual, the leftist misses the point about Rome.
Higher public assistance creates an entitlement mentality.
The money was not there to pay for the legions to defend the empire and the people were constantly given things, perks and distractions that they didn't care where it came from.
The high number of slaves were from the wars of conquest that Rome engaged in so that it could afford it's growing welfare state.
The slaves were sold to get more money into the treasury.
THAT, is how the Roman empire collasped.
Rome was not built or destroyed in a day.

California is the 8th largest economy in the world, not 20% of the whole. There is a big difference.
Don't forget that the USA is a HUGE country, and we need to have a few things as standard in order to remain a country.
A common currency, language and form of government is tops on the list. The US is in danger of losing the common language part already.

Pure communism can not work in a human society. We are not wired that way. We need incentive to work, which communism destroys.

Communism is just the extreme left side, a direction that the further you go towards, the worse conditions get.
Just like if you go to far right, you can have the same problem.
As much as some people hate to admit it, but even the NAZI party had socialist ideas.
Maybe that is why it was called the "Nationalist Socialist Workers Party".
All for the state and all that.

"Civilization will always be a struggle, and accomplish nothing."
WOW, what world do you live on?
Like having a warm place to live, medical care if you get hurt, food pretty darn cheap, the computer you are using? How about the internet which was created by the US defense Dept and given freely to the world?
How about art, music, architecture?
Only in the last 2000 or so years has civilization really gotten off the ground and further more, only in the last 200 years has the vast majority enjoyed so many of the benifits.
Just imagine where things will be in another 200 years.

That appears to be a recurring theme with leftists.
They think that this is as good as it can get and we conservative think this is only the beginning of even greater chapters in the saga of Man.

I will try to believe that it is past your bed time and you are so tired you are not thinking straight.

What works is a government that one can go your entire life without having to deal with.
You won't need anyones permission to do business and as long as you don't violate anyone else, can go about whatever means you can to better the lives of yourself and your family.
It is called "enlightened self interest"
It takes nothing out of your check and gets the little money it needs from import taxes and user fees.
It provides no programs let alone those that consume in administration costs 87% of every dollar they receive (like US programs do) and a system where local (at most state, at best city) government is where decisions are made.

By the way, why are you in the evil capitalist US (and Wisconsin of all places) instead of the workers paradise of Norway?
Hmmmm. More opportunities maybe?

Come on, alittle truth here.

You leftys are just so damn jealous of the US that you can't stand it.
We took in the world rejects (my family included) and created the greatest nation to ever bless this planet with it's existence, and you just can't stand it.

The truth will set you free.........

LOL
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Old December 31, 2002, 09:01   #34
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I am Spartacus.



Off-topic discussion of Atzlan:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=72515
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Old December 31, 2002, 12:24   #35
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hi ,

talking about flipping , belgium is the only country that still has a piece of germany , they occupied it after WWII and still have not given it back , .....

have a nice day
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Old December 31, 2002, 12:53   #36
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Did not know that
That Belgium held once German territory. Any idea where it is and how big?

Zachriel

Yes, you are Spartacus.

And if you keep saying things like that you very well may end up just like him.

There is plenty of room for someone so brave in the mid west should things get too rough on the left coast.
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Old December 31, 2002, 13:25   #37
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Re: Did not know that
Quote:
Originally posted by TomCB
That Belgium held once German territory. Any idea where it is and how big?

Zachriel

Yes, you are Spartacus.

And if you keep saying things like that you very well may end up just like him.

There is plenty of room for someone so brave in the mid west should things get too rough on the left coast.
hi ,

its near the german border , they call it the east cantons , take a map of belgium , look in the direction of germany , it has town like eupen , malmedy and st-vith , a map of the battle of the bulge shows most of it also

we should have something like "annex" in civ , .....
but how could that be worked out

have a nice day
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Old December 31, 2002, 13:46   #38
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Ok, SO that would be in the Southern area near Lexemburg.

The option in CIV would be like demanding a square (s).

Perhaps CIV 4 will need to have "overlay" maps that could cover things like language, culture, national preference of the people there and what have you.

All this would however, make conquest victory much more difficult.
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Old December 31, 2002, 13:48   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by bobbo008
Le Pen, to my knowledge, did want to leave the Eurozone and the E.U., but I doubt one man is going to make that happen (yeah, all of France's problems are Europe's fault). That would cost I don't know how much money and would be rejected by everyone but some old opinionated WWII vets and radicals.

If France left the E.U., though, would it still exist after that? Hmm... think of what that would lead to...
hi ,

well if you read some of the flyers his supporters handed out when the elections where going , .......the say that they should leave the eurozone and europe , .....

and can we please keep BS politics in the OTF instead of a civ thread , .....

have a nice day
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Old December 31, 2002, 14:21   #40
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WOW!

I just read this entire thread, and I'm going to try to summarize some of the key points made: the good, the bad, and the ugly.

1. Many people would like to see the ability to negotiate borders between different civilizations, as in done in real life. Some feel Civ does not go far enough in this sense, and others feel that the latter game, after Nationalism, makes culture flipping so rare that it does correctly emulate "real life".

I for one belong to this camp... I feel the Civilizations in the game represent true "Civilizational blocs," as Huntington would say. In other words, "New Zimbabwe" defecting to, say, France, is not viewed as a city alongside Rouen, Chartes, etc., but is seen as a basic vassal of France, much as most of the Western hemisphere can be said to "belong" to America even though they don't literally belong to the USA.

Still, countries do negotiate borders often, even in the modern age, so including this option in a future Civ patch or version would be appropriate.

2. Canals! Bring 'em on. No one seems to disagree with this.

3. LePen is not actually an anti-immigrant, pro-Church candidate, he's a leftist. I will refrain from commenting on this completely idiotic stateme... I mean, I will refrain from commenting on this issue.

4. Soon, due to the predominance of leftists in uncaring Canada and in long-PRI-dominated Mexico, which is now run by a pro-business candidate, and the preponderence of their oppressive failed socialist policies, the USA will soon be overrun by immigrants from both North AND South who will not assimilate into our culture in anyway, and will strip us of our beloved English language, which no one speaks anymore, especially not the bulk of Americans.

5. Currency should be represented in the game in a more detailed way. Amen to that. Someone mentioned Nixon taking us off the gold standard, an act perhaps the most significant in American economic history in the last 55 years. Currency fluctuations can make or utterly break a country... just look "south of the border" for numerous examples. Yet it can bring short-term bliss. So this should definitely, somehow, be represented in the game.

What else can we do to make Civ more life-like?

And one last thing... maybe I shouldn't even write this...

Pat Buchanan won 35% of the vote when he ran?WHEN? When in God's name did Pat Buchanan get 35% of the popular vote in a general election? Not in my lifetime. In the 1992 Republican Primary, yes. Since then, Pat Buchanan has foundered on the rocks.
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Old December 31, 2002, 14:24   #41
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Re: Re: Did not know that
Quote:
Originally posted by panag

we should have something like "annex" in civ , .....
but how could that be worked out

have a nice day
This is the same as demanding a city in negotiations, basically. Unless you're talking about individual squares...

Two more things to think about:

1. Suburbs/smaller urban centers go largely unrepresented in the game.

2. Earlier someone mentioned irrigation. This is a VERY important issue in negotiations, especially these days. It will eventually overpower oil as a consideration in global politics. I sure would love to shut off my opponent's water sources in Civ, as real "civs" do in real life. Think about it: it would make a subtle but important impact! Are there any patches that address this?
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Old December 31, 2002, 15:41   #42
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How can a city, existing in 20 or so squares, have millions of people, but you can't have two 10,000 person cities adjacent to each other?
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Old December 31, 2002, 15:51   #43
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hi ,

bigger maps are needed , earthquakes , hey they can move the world when a nuke goes of , so why not , .....

more units , a ship based helicopter , more naval units , more units in general , more resources , a bigger techtree with more technology , and an option to keep a "regular" game with "regular" techtree or to have an "extended" game , .....

have a nice day
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Old December 31, 2002, 15:53   #44
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I transport can carry 8 units, and that's just...little. An aircraft carrier is...big...there's no reason it can't carry land units, especially for helicopters.
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Old December 31, 2002, 15:55   #45
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Re: Re: Re: Did not know that
Quote:
Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth


This is the same as demanding a city in negotiations, basically. Unless you're talking about individual squares...

Two more things to think about:

1. Suburbs/smaller urban centers go largely unrepresented in the game.

2. Earlier someone mentioned irrigation. This is a VERY important issue in negotiations, especially these days. It will eventually overpower oil as a consideration in global politics. I sure would love to shut off my opponent's water sources in Civ, as real "civs" do in real life. Think about it: it would make a subtle but important impact! Are there any patches that address this?
hi ,

, individual spaces , ..... its an , there has to be a way to do this , .....

what is also needed is an option to close an embassy until a new one is build ( ! )

have a nice day
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Old December 31, 2002, 15:58   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by bobbo008
I transport can carry 8 units, and that's just...little. An aircraft carrier is...big...there's no reason it can't carry land units, especially for helicopters.
hi ,

, an amphibious landing ship would be intresting , something that caries helicopters and a couple vstol aircraft , it should be able to hold a couple transports , .....

the transports itself need to be looked at , one transport for "foot" units only , the other one for "heavy" vehicles , .....

it would be intresting to see a hovercraft , ....

have a nice day
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Old January 1, 2003, 01:20   #47
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I agree with you on almost every point, (and since I made most of the points you brought up, my ego has NOTHING to do with it)however, there are some factual errors I would like to fix, and since this thread is SO far off topic already, I am amazed there are not tons more.

I think you over estimate the impact of the USA on the western hemisphere, at least that is how it appears to this American.
However, how could the designers put any sort of impact into the game?
Refuse to declare war on a country they feel all warm and fuzzy towards?
I believe the 35% number was attributed to LePen, not Buchanan, who I think may have gotten 35% in the primary in some states, which is most assuredly not the same thing.
Assimulation would be great to include into the game.
The US used to insist on it and not we act like we should change to suit them.

Please remember that everything is relative.

A conservative in Europe is a left moderate here in the colonies, where as a leftist in Europe is a Soviet communist to us.
That is why LePen is considered a Ultra conservative over there and considered a right wing moderate to us here.

I wonder how (or if) political parties could be introduced into the game.

Perhaps as certain policies are implemented and the effects occure the population can change what options are available to the leader.
Populations can be fickle and players may feel like they have the senate from CIV2 working against them all the time.
It would make communist or monarch or even despot gov. look good sometimes.

WOW
How about refugees? They jam up roads, preventing reinforcements from getting to the front
Holy sites and pilgrams?
Sure the holy site would help in culture, but could hurt in spying and prevent you from allowing it from falling into enemy hands, or face the wrath or being declared not worthy to lead.

Until the size of units are stated, I would leave transports as is, even though they really should carry only one unit each, that would make the game to detailed
In my games, I have DRASTICALLY increased the cost adn the movement of ships in order to make them more realistic.
Battleships move about 25 but cost around 100 shields.
I don't like stealth bomber flying off carriers but since there is not an alternative, I have left it as is.
Carriers are not all that big.
We could not move more than a few dozen tanks on one for instance, and getting them on and off would be difficult at best.
Tanks are very heavy.
If we reduced a carrier to a troop ship, we may be able to move a total of 10k or so, but that is about it.

How about expelling the embassy of someone you are upset with but not enough to go to war with?

As far as suburbs go, as long as each city must feed itself that won't happen.

I would like to see a "national" food bank being created.
Surplus could be exported or shortages imported.
This could have the effect of having areas like Iowa and Nebraska, which can grow enough food for the entire US by themselves.
Talk about a resource you beter damn well defend, or one that is a prime target for a nuke.

If this sort of thing was put in, it would allow cities to be close to each other in order to create a huge industrial base.

Master of Orion 3 in coming out in the next few months, and it is supposed to have alot of these features.

We shall see.

How about cities not each being the same shape?

How about each item you assign for export bring in so much money and you people, without your consent, import others items that they want and that costs you money.
You can run the risk of denying your people what a given civ exports at the risk of pissing them off.


The possibilties are endless.............................
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Old January 1, 2003, 10:08   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by panag
and can we please keep BS politics in the OTF instead of a civ thread , .....

have a nice day
Good idea. I even created a special place for all the OT to go. Bash away!
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=72515


Things that might make the game more realistic:

1. Foot units require population to produce. (This is why a small country cannot easily take and hold a larger one.)
2. Modern units cost more.
3. Horse get combat bonuses on flat terrain, Archers get bonuses in forest, Foot get defense bonus on hills.
4. Horse have an advantage over Archers, Archers have an advantage over Foot, Foot have advantage over Horse.
5. Archers don't automatically move after they attack (so they won't jump out of a city or stack when they attack nearby enemy units).

have a nice new year
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Old January 1, 2003, 14:00   #49
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Quote:
The option in CIV would be like demanding a square (s).
you could do this in Microprose´s (Firaxis) Birth of the Federation. I´m sure it will be in MOO3 as well.
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Old January 1, 2003, 15:01   #50
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To Zachriel
I agree in principle with your ideas about unit advantage, however, it would be very realistic to to gauge the various units according to real world examples.
Mongol light infantry should dominate against even knights, since they were so much faster and their bows outranged anything until the Welsh (English) longbow.
Any use of gun powder on a civ without gun powder should have a HUGE effect on enemy units just like the Spanish had on the Aztecs.

Light infantry that are not spearman (pikemen) should get run down by medium or heavy cavalry.
Horse should not be able to attack into forest or jungle more than one square.
Knights usually got mowed down by archers if the archers had pikes protecting them, ie. Agincourt.

Desert should be a a barrier (except for native units, or Arabs units or what have you) until combustion or something like that.

Once desert is irrigated (long enough and with enough water) it could turn into plains.

SOMETHING must be down about anything other that air units and other modern armor from killing modern armor at the rates they currently do.
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Old January 1, 2003, 16:35   #51
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hi ,

we should be able to give various cost to each unit , a tank should cost two gold a turn , a nuke three , a regular foot soldier one , etc , ......

have a nice day
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Old January 1, 2003, 17:46   #52
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Unit values
I was thinking about that this problem.

Why does a unit have to have a set value?

Couldn't the value be relative to what and where it is fighting?

A Roman legion could have a 20 attack vs a swordman on open terrain, but a lousy defense in forests, but a great defense in open terrain.
However, even on open terrain, it would have a 1 defense vs a modern armor.
And against say Welch longbows, they would be wrecked in short order.

Armor attacking a city would have a lousy defense if the defenders had at least gun powder and the defenders defense value could increase as their tech got higher.
Think about Berlin at the end of WWII when the Russian armor was chewed badly by old men and boys with anti tank rockets.

This could cause seiges of cities and forced surrenders.

Legions could move say 15 squares on roads and they should double as engineer units.
Maybe legions should cost a small fortune in exchange.

With a varied strength that is dependent on terrain, the game strategy would take on HUGE importance, instead of the current mass as many guys as you think you may need and throw them at the enemy.

Also, unless stopped by terrain or ambush, a unit should have the option to withdraw before a battle.

Legions did not ambush, but swordsmen could for instance.

I think leaders should be more common and they should have good and bad effects on units and cities.

What if a king or great general in captured.
Think of the effect of the few Roman Ceasars that were captured or even King Richard of England on his way back from the crusades.
What is things are going badly and a great general decides he should run things instead of you?
What if a general is just plain lousy and leads his men into defeat.
You would not know his value, it would have to be learned.
And just because a general is great at attack does not mean he is great at defense, or retreat or even attacking in every type of terrain.
Maybe he just got lucky and fought a really lousy general on the other side.

Your empire should be kinda easy to maintain.
However, if you are losing a war badly and it does not look good, the people, through a leader, may sue for peace and offer your head up as part of the pay off.

Just a few thoughts

PS

Why is my PTW crashing every two turns all of a sudden?
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Old January 1, 2003, 17:51   #53
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Re: Unit values
Quote:
Originally posted by TomCB
I was thinking about that this problem.

Why does a unit have to have a set value?

Couldn't the value be relative to what and where it is fighting?

A Roman legion could have a 20 attack vs a swordman on open terrain, but a lousy defense in forests, but a great defense in open terrain.
However, even on open terrain, it would have a 1 defense vs a modern armor.
And against say Welch longbows, they would be wrecked in short order.

Armor attacking a city would have a lousy defense if the defenders had at least gun powder and the defenders defense value could increase as their tech got higher.
Think about Berlin at the end of WWII when the Russian armor was chewed badly by old men and boys with anti tank rockets.

This could cause seiges of cities and forced surrenders.

Legions could move say 15 squares on roads and they should double as engineer units.
Maybe legions should cost a small fortune in exchange.

With a varied strength that is dependent on terrain, the game strategy would take on HUGE importance, instead of the current mass as many guys as you think you may need and throw them at the enemy.

Also, unless stopped by terrain or ambush, a unit should have the option to withdraw before a battle.

Legions did not ambush, but swordsmen could for instance.

I think leaders should be more common and they should have good and bad effects on units and cities.

What if a king or great general in captured.
Think of the effect of the few Roman Ceasars that were captured or even King Richard of England on his way back from the crusades.
What is things are going badly and a great general decides he should run things instead of you?
What if a general is just plain lousy and leads his men into defeat.
You would not know his value, it would have to be learned.
And just because a general is great at attack does not mean he is great at defense, or retreat or even attacking in every type of terrain.
Maybe he just got lucky and fought a really lousy general on the other side.

Your empire should be kinda easy to maintain.
However, if you are losing a war badly and it does not look good, the people, through a leader, may sue for peace and offer your head up as part of the pay off.

Just a few thoughts

PS

Why is my PTW crashing every two turns all of a sudden?
hi ,

last line ( P.S. ) its normal , it does that from time to time , ......

try a reinstall

have a nice day
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Old January 5, 2003, 10:35   #54
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Re: To Zachriel
Quote:
Originally posted by TomCB
Mongol light infantry should dominate against even knights, since they were so much faster and their bows outranged anything until the Welsh (English) longbow.
At least somebody else know the credit should lie with the Welsh and not the English.


The Celt in me emerges again...
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Old January 5, 2003, 14:36   #55
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hi ,

one way to make this game more "real" is the re-introduction of a casualty time line from CIV II

have a nice day
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Old January 5, 2003, 22:34   #56
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Screw the PC liberals, screw the fascist, racist and imperialist conservatives. Countries prosper when patriotism goes before ideology.

As for the US being the "greatest nation ever to bless the Earth", I beg to differ, and 99% of the rest of the world - which many of you sometimes forget exists - will probably agree.

I just wish it were George W. Bush's face who appeared, taunting and threatening, in the Civ3 diplomacy screen, and I would enjoy crushing the US even more. Somehow I admire Abe Lincoln too much to feel the same.

In the meantime, i'll vent my fury against the Russians, even though Catherine happens to look like my grandmother...

As for realism, I mentioned in another threat, that a combat sistem like Panzer General could be adapted perfectly to a Civilization game making it the greatest strategy game to ever be designed in history!!

Experience in warfare or technology could also make you improve or customize existing units, i.e., some civs could opt for longer-range bombers, others with more bombardment power, etc. The design of units in Alpha Centauri kinda went along this line.
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Old January 5, 2003, 22:54   #57
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More realistic ideas: BTW, some of you have really put some pretty interesting stuff which hopefully Firaxis will consider.

- Cruise Missiles that act more like Tactical Nukes instead of artillery, and could be launched from subs or cruisers.

- A WAR HISTORY screen which shows how many units you have lost and enemy units destroyed in each of your conflicts. Hell, just a loss screen like in Civ2 would suffice.

- This one is moddable: Fighters and Jet Fighters could have Lethal bombardment against Ships. This will make naval warfare more realistic since planes DO sink ships. However, it would be to easy to make Bombers do this. Fighters, with their lower bombard rates would make it more challenging. (BTW I have yet to try this, it's just an idea). In fact, Bombers should not even be allowed to be carried on carriers, since when do B-17s or B-2s fly off the flattops??? Not even Doolittle could have pulled it off...

- A DOCK which could funcition as a coastal colony.

- Diplomacy: the option to urge AI civs to make peace with another and the tendency to ally between 2 or 3 camps at the most. I hate it when an ally is fighting an enemy but is at war with another ally who is fighting another enemy who happens to be my ally, etc. etc. Whatever happened to Axis vs. Allies?

- Trading cities should be possible again, this was removed in the 1.29f patch just because the AI was too stupid to make decent deals.

- The ability to conquer an enemy civ and make it your colony or protectorate or something like that.

And THIS could be a revolutionary one:

A HEX BASED 3-D SPHERICAL MAP. Basically it would mean a "rounded" hex-based map, kinda like a soccer ball.
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Old January 6, 2003, 00:13   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by raguil_79


As for the US being the "greatest nation ever to bless the Earth", I beg to differ, and 99% of the rest of the world - which many of you sometimes forget exists - will probably agree.

I just wish it were George W. Bush's face who appeared, taunting and threatening, in the Civ3 diplomacy screen, and I would enjoy crushing the US even more.
The contempt, no, the hatred, I feel for the likes of you, and the rest of the jealous, pathetic, failures in the Third World is I am happy to say growing throughout the U.S. - which has foolishly been far too generous for the past half century. You can all go to hell.

Now go tell the rest of the Mexicans who illegally FLOOD our borders with illegal aliens and illegal drugs TO STAY OUT if they hate America so much.

See you in Baghdad. And if you don't like, too effin' bad.
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Old January 6, 2003, 00:17   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by panag
hi ,

one way to make this game more "real" is the re-introduction of a casualty time line from CIV II

have a nice day
We first asked for that literally twelve months ago. Firaxis ignored us, just as they ignored requestes for a return of the Cheat Mode.

FACT: there is no way to make Civ 3 "realistic" at all without a complete bottom to top redesign.
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Old January 6, 2003, 00:20   #60
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Originally posted by Coracle
Now go tell the rest of the Mexicans who illegally FLOOD our borders with illegal aliens and illegal drugs TO STAY OUT if they hate America so much.
Fighting the Mexican settler diarrhea again, Coracle?
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