Non-wars

Ben Williams · December 29, 2002, 13:13

Right now, we're (the U.S. and Great Britain) in the process of bombing Iraq, we have been for over ten years, enforcing the so-called "no-fly zone." But I havn't seen any major revolts that would count as war weariness. Millitary actions like this seem to have no civ equivelant, you cannot do anything millitarity in civ3 without declaring war. What do you all think?

Willem · December 29, 2002, 22:42

The main problem is that Civ III is based on individual nations. If building the UN were to allow more options, your idea might be more feasible. As it stands now though, there's no opportunity for those types of activities.

CrONoS · December 30, 2002, 00:15

Ben Williams:
When U.S. was in war with VietNam, U.S. got big manifestation... mainly due by youth people.

But now people listen Britney Spears, Eminem, Jello and some stupid Rap/dance music. What is show in T.V. or Radio is some "singer" sing about cars/money/girls/men/superficial love or how he/she lived a bad childhood.
Individualistic and bad music "composed" or "singing" by stupid people.

How the youth can be "consciously awaken" if they listen television program like: "Friend", "Cop", "JackAss" etc....

Maybe Democracy and Capitalism just make "stupid culture" since with democracy, the mass are the king.. and with capitalism the goal is to make money. Making money is easier when you create something that can understand by most people.
Vulgar Sex/Superficial Love/Cars/Individualism is easier to understand and sell more then maybe some other thing... more "difficult" to understand or to feel.

It's funny to read Friedrich Nietzche, many thing he said about the future of humanity come true...

So maybe in Civ3, when go under democracy you got a big boost of culture at the beginning, but with time your "culture" go down...???
Maybe the main problem with our system, is the education... we want to create human able to work... I think it's the problem! We do not create a human with a soul, we create some human-machine... able to work, thinking in a rational/logical way(with no other way of thinking)...
A man creating by itself with the fire of this soul is not the goal of our education system...
maybe is better that way....

Now I shut my mouth... and wish a Civ with more Psychology/Social Engineering!!!! And wish you understand what I said, cause i'm french...

alva · December 30, 2002, 07:53

* you become, what you are *

Rebel67 · January 6, 2003, 20:27

What I dont like about war weariness is that you suffer from it even if you are trying your hardest to make peace, trying to approach the other side with diplomacy each turn. It should be clear that you are simply trying to defend yourself against agressive opponants, but the people still riot.

Didn't see the British having riots in WW2 did you, yet we were a democracy in a long war, our cities were getting bombed and we were fighting in many parts of the world. If this situation happened in civ 3 you would probably get awful penalties to your happiness.

Stuie · January 7, 2003, 09:44

But WW2 only lasted a few turns, in Civ3 terms.

FNBrown · January 7, 2003, 13:42

Besides, the Germans were the aggressor in WWII, and in Civ3, you actually get a morale boost when someone declares war on you.

Oerdin · January 7, 2003, 13:47

I never knew about that moral boost. Are you sure it exists?

Harovan · January 7, 2003, 13:55

Quote:

Originally posted by FNBrown
and in Civ3, you actually get a morale boost when someone declares war on you.

I remember this legend, but never saw it proven. IMHO it doesn't exist.

Willem · January 7, 2003, 13:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Sir Ralph

I remember this legend, but never saw it proven. IMHO it doesn't exist.

Well you do fare better as far as War Weariness goes, so I guess that would be considered a morale boost.

FNBrown · January 7, 2003, 13:59

Yep... happened in my current game, actually. Monarch level, large map. The Ottomans declared war on me (totally unprovoked), and the next turn, I had several cities start celebrating "We love the king day."

Willem · January 7, 2003, 14:01

Quote:

Originally posted by FNBrown
Yep... happened in my current game, actually. Monarch level, large map. The Ottomans declared war on me (totally unprovoked), and the next turn, I had several cities start celebrating "We love the king day."

Come to think of it, I had the same thing happen to me a couple of games back when the Carthaginians declared war on me.

Raion · January 7, 2003, 14:07

There are little tiny people in your computer game.

Argos65987 · January 7, 2003, 14:22

Quote:

Originally posted by FNBrown
...declared war on me (totally unprovoked), and the next turn, I had several cities start celebrating "We love the king day."

I have seen this effect in several of my games as well.

petemajor · January 7, 2003, 14:27

Regarding unprovoked attacks while in democracy:

Yes, this is definitely the case... if another nation attacks you unprovoked while in democracy, your population rallies around - this frequently causes cities to celebrate WLTxD.

One time that this happened, we made peace a few turns later and my WLTxD was suddenly cancelled... go figure!

Pete

petemajor · January 7, 2003, 14:30

So, if you attack (unprovoked) a computer player who is a democracy, could you be causing some of their cities to experience WLTxD?

Never thought of it in reverse before...

Stuie · January 7, 2003, 15:31

There is definitely a morale boost when the AI declares war on you. You also get less war weariness when fighting (and winning) an offensive war in enemy territory. It's when you start losing lots of units and (more importantly) cities that the WW really kicks in. I've been able to conduct very long, protracted wars while in Democracy by keeping the fighting away from home, and maintaining a consistent level of victories. That and a ton of luxuries helps, too.

Thoth · January 8, 2003, 05:55

I've been looking at the happiness boost for awhile now, and it appears that you get the benefit of 1 extra luxury resource when you have war declared on you. The effect lasts 20 turns (modified by war weariness depending on your government), or until a peace treaty is signed.

alva · January 8, 2003, 06:10

Quote:

I remember this legend, but never saw it proven. IMHO it doesn't exist.

It does exist, but it fades quickly, the effects are very shortlived
(not sure, bit I think you even get them in monarchy and despotism, maybe to a lesser degree.)