gaining movement on capturing SPs

[Gregurabi]

I just noticed an oddity in my current game (Linux version, beta testing), and I'm wondering if it's a known bug.

I bombarded with a ship, using all its movement points. Later in the same turn I captured the city that had the Maritime Control Center, so all my ships got 2 extra movement points -- even the ones that had already moved or attacked that turn. The ship which had already bombarded once was able to fire off another round.

(I've noticed similar weirdness upon capturing the Cloudbase Academy (SMACX). In that case, it seems to be even worse -- needlejets which had already moved get 2 extra movement points, but upon using them they die (since they just moved twice and didn't end up in a base)! But I haven't had a chance to pin down the exact details in that case.)

[Fitz]

Upgrading from the DW to nano fuel cells, which also give you extra movement points, has caused air crashes for me many times. I'm not surprised you get it when you capture the cloudbase academy.

[Garth Vader]

I noticed the MCC one. I didn't think of it as a bug. It's like getting the extra movement if a unit becomes elite during combat.

[Fitz]

Or losing it if damaged to red. That happens to me all the time if I take a lot of damage with my first move/attack with a rover.

[mark13]

One thing I often do - if you upgrade a damaged fission speeder unit that has already moved into a fusion speeder, you get the extra move back, because the (say) seven points of damage, where they are 70% w/ fission reactor, is 35% w/ fusion, so you get your extra point back. You have to do it in the workshop, though, as any units upgraded in the field lose their movement for that turn.

The ethics of this - I would regard it illegal, as upgrading a unit mid-turn is anyway, usually.

[MariOne]

minor objection to GV comment:
Unlike land units or choppers, ships & jets are supposed to END their round after attacking, *regardless* of the spared movement points.
So, a ship becoming Elite thanks to its victorious attack, will NOT gain an extra movement *for that turn* (that is, they'll be anyway "already moved" despite the increased mobility). Only land units would.
Fitz: Reduction of movement due to damage is a basic unit mechanics, and it is immediately applied after combat, should be one of the first things we learn.
m13: you often do it but you regard it illegal? I like that!

[WhiteElephants]

Good eye MarioOne. I'll have to keep an eye on that slippery Mark13!

[Misotu]

Mark13 - I'm not sure about the general principle of DW upgrades being "illegal" mid-move. Unless I've been misinformed (I will admit that I've never checked this ) it costs you *more* to upgrade a unit through the DW than it does to do it manually. It also restores some health, if the unit is damaged.

Advantages, certainly, but you pay good money for them. Now, if people don't *like* the way the game is designed, that I can understand. But "unethical" and "illegal"? Nope. This appears to be absolutely intentional on the part of the designers ...

(If it doesn't work this way then I take it all back ... I've never bothered to check it )

[mark13]

quote: it costs you *more* to upgrade a unit through the DW than it does to do it manually.

No, no no no no no no no noooo!!!!!!!!!!
It does NOT!! The only reason someone thought that is because you have to upgrade ALL units of a certain type, and the cost is, of coures, multiplied.

quote: It also restores some health, if the unit is damaged.

The only reason this happens is because the unit hasn't moved that turn, and so repairs 10% damage, in much the same way as it would if you pressed the spacebar at the start of movement.

MariOne, I'll take that comment with a pinch of salt but I'll explain it this way: I regard it illegal, of course, in MP, but in SP you are playing the game, so you decide the rules.

WE: You shouldn't have to keep an eye on me even if I did cheat, as there is one equalising factor: I am a useless SMAC player...

[Helium Pond]

The rules for the Apolyton tournament state:

"Upgrading units with the design workshop is allowed at end of turn only."

Which means that you CAN move a unit and then upgrade it using the workshop, but only in that order: you aren't allowed to use the workshop to upgrade a class of units, and then attack with them in the same turn.

As for my personal preferences, I think the using the workshop in any way is perfectly fair, even in MP. For me, it's only dicey in the circumstance where you only have 1 of a certain unit; other than that, I think the fact that you have to pay for all the units at once balances out the fact that those units don't lose a turn.

But I'm glad there's a tournament rule, so that we don't have to have this negotiation before every game.

[Misotu]

quote: Originally posted by mark13 on 11-09-2000 09:23 AM The only reason this happens is because the unit hasn't moved that turn, and so repairs 10% damage, in much the same way as it would if you pressed the spacebar at the start of movement.

Well ... but it's still an advantage because you can move the unit as well, whereas if I pressed the spacebar I couldn't move the unit in the same turn. So it's not the same thing ...

Regarding cost, I'm sure you're right. Like I said, it was only second-hand info.

(thinks)

But, so is this

Seriously, have you actually checked it? I have to admit that I don't tend to use the DW, so I've never bothered ...
[This message has been edited by Misotu (edited November 09, 2000).]

[mark13]

Mis, I was under the impression that upgrading the unit via the workshop *didn't* heal any damage - whereas in the field it did, because that unit had not moved for a turn.

Yes, I have checked it, and it holds true - you will see if you only have one unit of a certain type you want to upgrade, the cost will be the same.

This is why the Apolyton PBEM rules have outlawed it - Tau Ceti said something along the lines of:

"If you have an innocent looking Scout Patrol in someone else's territory, they are not going to get suspicious. However, if you upgrade it to a Shard Squad using the DW and then attack with it the same turn, that is cheating, because the defending player has had no prior notification that the Scout Patrol would magically transform itself into a killing machine."

This, IMO, is cheating, as is the rover tactic.

[Misotu]

OK, I tested it myself to find out about damage.

You're absolutely right, it doesn't cost more to upgrade through the DW, so that kind of blows my arguement out of the window on that score

Damage. Ahem, well, like I said, I don't use the DW ever really, maybe 2 or 3 times total. Damage does get healed on an upgrade, but only when the reactor level is increased. Upgrade from fission to fusion for example, and it heals half of any damage instantly, whichever upgrade method you use. (I expect everyone except me already knew this )

I'd only ever noticed this instant healing once - and I happened to use the DW at the time, so I thought "wow, neat DW feature". (Slaps head).

Should've checked. I think, given all this, I've comprehensively boxed myself into a corner. I'd like to make it clear that I wholeheartedly support the MP ruling on use of the DW.

[mark13]

Mis, you did tick the right box, you didn't vote for 'maybe, but I don't think so' by accident?

It makes you wonder, though, whether the Firaxis team left that in intentionally. I doubt it personally, but it is yet another controversial 'feature' which a player can quite easily take advantage of....

[Misotu]

Must admit, I wondered the same thing. It's a weird thing to have happened by accident. And then, on the other hand, maybe damage ratings are not recorded in absolute terms, but relative to the overall damage capability of the unit. (If you see what I mean). In which case, it could easily be accidental. But either way ... unless you're going to ban reactor upgrades ... IT'S IN, PEOPLE! USE IT! YEA!

I was confused by the ballot paper BTW, you're right. I meant to tick the box marked "anything Tau Ceti says is OK by me" but the punch hole was in the wrong place.