Scientific / Commercial Civs?

[EntroPi]

First of all, hi everyone.

I'm writing this, mainly because I'd like to know what the advantages are for commercial / scientific civs are, and how to use them wisely.

We already know a lot about industrious and religious...
... And expansionist from AU...

But I can't seem to find much on these two... or anything on scientific...

And I was just looking for the right way to play the Greeks/Koreans.

Thanks everyone.

[Mattaba]

How about looking in the civilopedia?

[Bluefrog]

Ah, the scientific trait.

First, what it does. Any scientific/research improvements are half cost. Libraries, universities, and research labs. Also, upon entering a new age, you get a free tech. The manual says it's random between the beginning techs of each era, but for me, it has always been the same tech for each age: Theology, Nationalism, and (I think, memory is having a bit of a problem this morning) Rocketry. Note: you do not get a bonus tech for the Ancient Age.

As for strats, I don't have time to go into a lot of detail, but here are some basics. My first build in many border/captured cities is typically a library, unless I'm playing as the Babs. While it doesn't generate happiness, it does produce a nice 3 culture per turn (cpt) that has a couple of nice effects. First and foremost, it expands the cultural border around that city, giving you more land area, and also pushing back the cultural borders of your neighbors. Secondly, culture plays a large part in, you guessed it, cultural conversions. Imagine that, eh? While a library by itself probably won't cause other cities to flip to you, it might prevent the city from flipping to someone else. That, to me, is worth the upkeep cost of the library in cities that don't produce much gold.

I really should start working, but I'll put up one more item. Typically, I'm a bit of a warmonger in the ancient era. I'll claim bits of my continent at a time, taking techs and gold along the way as other civs seek to appease me. This allows me to put tech at 0%, which is, admittedly, counterintuitive to being Scientific. But it also allows me to build up a huge treasury. In most of my games, I'm able to snag the Great Library, because I prioritize it more the the AI does. This gives me some time to cool off the warmongering, concentrate on infrastructure, and begin accruing culture from all my libraries...which is all they are doing right now. The combination of the early wars/landgrab and libraries gives me a huge cultural lead that I'm usually able to hold on to without a problem. After Education hits, and the GL is obsolete, I crank up the science slider, and the tech lead is mine.

Note: This works on Monarch. I haven't tried out Emperor yet, but it seems viable there as well. I wouldn't advise it on Deity.

[Robber Baron]

Another advantage is your starting techs. With both the Koreans and (I believe) the Greeks, you start with bronze working (enabling spearmen, and the Colossus) and alphabet (awesome for brokering, or for making beeline runs/wonder gambits for either Great Library or Great Lighthouse). IMO, this is the best starting tech combo -- and I'm starting to believe which techs you start with makes for a major and (if played right) cumulative advantage in those first, foundational turns.

The advantages of the commercial trait take longer to kick in, but later in the game, if you have managed to expand to major (ie continental) proportions, the reduction in corruption is definitely noticeable. These are civs that are best played big, IMO, and that come into their own in the late-medieval/early national eras. Those cheap universities can be a major push, positioning you for tech leadership even at higher levels (monarch, and often emperor) of play.

[metalhead]

This is an excellent trait combo for higher difficulties, and, with a decent start, can make thegame a laugher.

The first, and maybe biggest, advantage of Sci/Com civs is their starting techs - Bronze Working, and Alphabet. Not only are these both more expensive than a lot of other first-level techs, but they allow you to get Literature from the start, in 2 techs if you wish, giving the clearest shot possible at getting the GL.

There are a couple of really good ways to approach the start with a Sci/Com civ. One is the go-for-broke GL start. Start by pumping out a few cities, and as soon as your 3rd or 4th city is built, begin building the palace in a productive city. In the mean time, research writing and then literature on 10%, and switch to the GL as soon as you get literature. You should get it easily, even on Emperor, but even in this case, Deity can get hairy. There are variations to this strat - you can lessen the devestation of not getting the GL by going for Writing first on max research, and then trading it to the other civs for as many techs as possible. This makes it less likely to get the GL, but you won't be as far behind as if you went-for-broke and missed. With the GL, research on 10% and build libraries everywhere. If your first improvement built in a city is usually a temple, make it a library. This will not only give you a culture edge, but make the switch to Republic more beneficial to your research.

For the rest of the game, there is not much you can change in your play style to make more of the Commercial, except build more cities. Scientific culture bombing, described by the previous poster, is a nice idea. The real benefit of Scientific, though, is the 3 free techs. You should make the most of them. Well, Theology is useful for, at most, a trade for Feudalism, but since you already have the GL, that's a pointless trade. The real useful free techs come at the next era breaks.

On Emperor and Deity, you are usually a few techs behind the top civs at the end of the middle ages, and they will usually enter the industrial age at the same time. This is your opportunity to catch up.

Your first turn after they get to the next age, crank your science down to 0, find the richest AI non-scientific civ, and call them up. Even if you are 2, 3, even 4 techs behind, trade as many gpt and lump sums as you have to to this civ to get into the next age. If you are running out of gold to trade, try to get some from lesser civs for the techs you have just traded for. Go around and make a hundred tax collectors if you have to. It is times like these that hoarding gold that many players say is a bad idea will really pay off. You will now have no income, and no treasury, but will be in the next age, and you will also have a tech that the civ you just gave all of your money to doesn't have.

If you get Nationalism for free in the Industrial Age, which you almost always will, you've hit the jackpot - immediately trade it back to the civ you just gave all of your money to. You will most likely get all of your gpt and lump sums back (unless you had to buy 4 or more techs), plus a nice bonus, and you just parlayed 1 free tech into 2-4 free ones, plus a nice cash bonus, plus the tech you would have gotten anyway. If one of the other Scientific civs got a different tech than you (you did check for that, right?), hey, trade for that as well.

Going into the Modern Age, doing this with more than 2 techs is dangerous, because they are so expensive, and the tech you get when advancing to the modern age may not offset the cost of buying your way into the age, but a similar process will yield some nice returns if you're careful not to spend too much.

[Arrian]

I've always seen Sci/Comm as one of the weakest trait combos. It is definitely more of a "builder" combo. Both traits help research (1/2 price scientific improvements, 3 free techs and of course the cash boost and corruption reduction).

I could see Greece or Korea becoming quite powerful if they start alone on a largish island. In fact, I can remember several games in which an AI Greece has become my top rival due to a large island start (then again, the AI just seems to do well as Greece).

It's true that Commercial civs have a leg up on either the Great Lighthouse or Great Library. But IMO, the civs with the absolute best shot at building the GL are France and Carthage (2x workers, start with masonry for Pyramids prebuild, extra shield past size 6). In fact, speaking of starting techs, the Comm/Ind civs have the most valueable ones (Alphabet, Masonry, oh my).

A minor quibble: you will get Monotheism, not Theology, for free upon entry into the Medieval Age. One thing to bear in mind about the scientific trait is that if you build or capture the Great Library, the free tech upon entry into the Medieval Age isn't much an advantage, as you will likely receive it in short order from the Library anyway.

-Arrian

[joncnunn]

Actually, it's Monothesim, Nationalism, and Rocketry.

Theology requires Monothesim to reserach.

Yes, as a Scientfic civ, Libaries are excelent first builds for their culture if your NOT religious as well.

Originally posted by Bluefrog
Ah, the scientific trait.

First, what it does. Any scientific/research improvements are half cost. Libraries, universities, and research labs. Also, upon entering a new age, you get a free tech. The manual says it's random between the beginning techs of each era, but for me, it has always been the same tech for each age: Theology, Nationalism, and (I think, memory is having a bit of a problem this morning) Rocketry. Note: you do not get a bonus tech for the Ancient Age.

As for strats, I don't have time to go into a lot of detail, but here are some basics. My first build in many border/captured cities is typically a library, unless I'm playing as the Babs. While it doesn't generate happiness, it does produce a nice 3 culture per turn (cpt) that has a couple of nice effects. First and foremost, it expands the cultural border around that city, giving you more land area, and also pushing back the cultural borders of your neighbors. Secondly, culture plays a large part in, you guessed it, cultural conversions. Imagine that, eh? While a library by itself probably won't cause other cities to flip to you, it might prevent the city from flipping to someone else. That, to me, is worth the upkeep cost of the library in cities that don't produce much gold.

I really should start working, but I'll put up one more item. Typically, I'm a bit of a warmonger in the ancient era. I'll claim bits of my continent at a time, taking techs and gold along the way as other civs seek to appease me. This allows me to put tech at 0%, which is, admittedly, counterintuitive to being Scientific. But it also allows me to build up a huge treasury. In most of my games, I'm able to snag the Great Library, because I prioritize it more the the AI does. This gives me some time to cool off the warmongering, concentrate on infrastructure, and begin accruing culture from all my libraries...which is all they are doing right now. The combination of the early wars/landgrab and libraries gives me a huge cultural lead that I'm usually able to hold on to without a problem. After Education hits, and the GL is obsolete, I crank up the science slider, and the tech lead is mine.

Note: This works on Monarch. I haven't tried out Emperor yet, but it seems viable there as well. I wouldn't advise it on Deity.

[Bluefrog]

Originally posted by joncnunn
Actually, it's Monothesim, Nationalism, and Rocketry.

Theology requires Monothesim to reserach.

Yes, as a Scientfic civ, Libaries are excelent first builds for their culture if your NOT religious as well.

Give a guy a break! It's morning, and I'm still recovering from Holiday Stupor (tm).

[DaveMcW]

Originally posted by EntroPi
And I was just looking for the right way to play the Greeks/Koreans.

There is no "right way" to play a civ. You will do best playing them the way you always play. Scientific/Commercial will give the biggest benefits to a person who likes to build, but that doesn't mean a warmonger can't use them effectively too.

In other words, choose the civ that fits your playstyle, don't choose your playstyle based on the civ.

[joncnunn]

Playing Scientific civs as if your a non-scientific civ is a major mistake.

As a Scientific civ, you should build your half price scientific buildings much earlier than non-scientific civs.

Similary, Religious civs should build their half price religious buildings much earlier than non-religious and Military civs should build their half price baracks & harbors much earlier than non-military.

The Commerical traight though just happens; there's no special tactics to use to take advantage of it.

[metalhead]

Originally posted by Arrian

I could see Greece or Korea becoming quite powerful if they start alone on a largish island. In fact, I can remember several games in which an AI Greece has become my top rival due to a large island start (then again, the AI just seems to do well as Greece).

It's true that Commercial civs have a leg up on either the Great Lighthouse or Great Library. But IMO, the civs with the absolute best shot at building the GL are France and Carthage (2x workers, start with masonry for Pyramids prebuild, extra shield past size 6). In fact, speaking of starting techs, the Comm/Ind civs have the most valueable ones (Alphabet, Masonry, oh my).

A minor quibble: you will get Monotheism, not Theology, for free upon entry into the Medieval Age. One thing to bear in mind about the scientific trait is that if you build or capture the Great Library, the free tech upon entry into the Medieval Age isn't much an advantage, as you will likely receive it in short order from the Library anyway.

-Arrian

Monotheism. DUH! (but you knew what I meant )

Anyways, I do not see the Pyramids pre-build as all that important for getting either wonder (GLib or GLight). In fact, I see more often than not, on Emperor, that the Pyramids are finished before anyone even has Literature, so I prefer to go with a nice Palace prebuild in my second or 3rd cities, as often times my capital has already built a Granary and is a Settler factory.

The point about workers is valid, although I put a high priority on building them, and when in a wonder race, I will assign more than enough workers to get the wonder-building city up-to-speed with terrain improvements. After city #3 or #4, all cities' first builds in my games as a non-Industrious Civ is always a worker, provided they have +2 food.

As for good old Theo..... make that Monotheism, I wouldn't say it is worthless, even with the GL. Trade it for some gold, or even give it away for some goodwill. Then, horde gold until you DO get Theology from the GL. Start researching Printing Press, get it first, and take it from there.

[alexman]

Originally posted by DaveMcW
In other words, choose the civ that fits your playstyle, don't choose your playstyle based on the civ.

This is true to an extent, but it depends on what you mean by "playstyle". If you mean warmongering versus building, I agree. But the great thing about civ traits is that they do change the best way to implement a strategy, especially in the Ancient Age.

Take religious versus scientific, for example. Religious civs are usually better off building temples for border expansion and culture, and beelining for Monarchy. Scientific civs (especially in combination with Commercial) would be better off going for Republic, picking up Literature along the way, and building libraries for border expansions and culture. This is true for both builders and warmongerers.

[EntroPi]

Thanks everyone.

I seem to be having trouble adjusting from Civ2. My latest (and only) game was on Monarch level - I did horrible through the ancient age and medieval age - I didn't get trade set up fast enough. Other things also went wrong, but I caught back up during the industrial age and then proceded to win diplomatically (and rather by accident).

I'm sure I'll keep learning...

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by EntroPi
Thanks everyone.

I seem to be having trouble adjusting from Civ2. My latest (and only) game was on Monarch level - I did horrible through the ancient age and medieval age - I didn't get trade set up fast enough. Other things also went wrong, but I caught back up during the industrial age and then proceded to win diplomatically (and rather by accident).

I'm sure I'll keep learning...

I hear that. My first civ3 game was as the Egyptians on Warlord, and I got ridiculously slaughtered.

[realpolitic]

I've found Sci/Comm a bit of overkill. By the time Comm sets in, I'm at 0% tax, because if tech sales, and often 4 turns/tech. Velocryx wrote a thread several months ago that claimed that Sci/Industrious were the most productive in shields/gold. They are the best pair I've found. Vel's analysis didn't include the industriousness is great at the begining of the game.

The Advantages of Being Scientific

Culture - I don't build many temples - I generally build workers in unhappy cities, and use luxuries and the luxury slider to manage happiness empire-wide. By the time I get Literature, Ive fought my first war, and can devote myself to building libraries.

Monotheism - often good for selling, trading for maps & military alliances.

Universities - saving 80 shields means building it rarely interferes with wars.

Ive found the Scientific, Industrial, and Miliaristic trait quite useful, but Commercial and Expansionistic I aviod.

[joncnunn]

When Expansionist is tied to Industrious, the synergy is greatler than either one by itself. (Chop down forest in half the time while building an early Granery when there is plenty of room to expand is the prime example.)

Science & Religious have strong synergeres as well: Half price on all important culture buildings.

[Nakar Gabab]

But there's only one Sci/Rel civ, Babylon, and I don't like 'em for some reason. Still, it's undeniably great synergy.

[Aeson]

Thought this was interesting, posted today over at CivFanatics GOTM Forum:

Originally posted by Mike B. FIRAXIS

Basically, it's a result of the algorithm used to randomly select an available tech. It's unintentionally heavily weighted towards the available tech that appears first in the list of techs (in the editor). It is supposed to select, at random, one tech from the new era that is available to the player (i.e., it has no prerequisites).

As an example, with unmodded rules you have the following available techs in the modern era with these approximate chances of being received:
91% Rocketry
1% Fission
1% Computers
7% Ecology

As you can see, Rocketry is heavily favored (simply because of it's placement within the list). This is unintentional and all 4 techs should have an equal chance of being selected. I will look into improving this for the next PTW patch.

[alva]

Certainly hasn't gone unnoticed

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...02#post1630902

This time by Catt.