Official: The Court

[Drogue]

Please do not post unless invited, official thread.

The Court will be in session tomorrow (GMT) and shall here it's first case as soon after that as possible. As suggested, Judges will rotate, when all 5 are available, so 3 judges will form a judicial panel for each trial. Judges will rotate in the form, unless a judge is involved, in which case they obviously cannot hear the case:
1) A, B, C
2) B, C, D
3) C, D, E
4) D, E, A
5) E, A, B
and so on, and will be named judge A, B, C etc in alphabetical order, with the first judge in each case being head judge. This does not give them any more power, but they are the one who lets the case move along, and the one who posts the verdict. In all decisions, all judges are equal. As such, your judges for this term are:
A - Drogue - Akiria
B - GeneralTacticus - Centralis
C - Rasbelin - Suomi
D - reismark - Alien Races
E - Tassadar500 - Sovietskii Soyuz

The first case is:
The Federation of Imperial Republics (aahz_capone) vs. The Free Land of Ubinia (Osweld).

Would both parties please post their agreement to mediation, and agree to accept the verdict of this court. Once they have done this, the case will commense wioth opening statements.

Hearing this case are: Drogue of Akiria (head), GeneralTacticus of Centralis and Rasbelin of Suomi. Would all these judges please PM myself to say they are willing and able to hear it (Is Ras still around?).

[aahz_capone]

Lord Chancellor Aahz Capone of the Federation of Imperial Republics hereby agrees to mediation by this court in the dispute between the hard-nosed, hard-working, intelligent voters of the F.I.R. and the oppressive leadership of the "Free land" of Ubinia.

The F.I.R. will abide by the verdict of this court and swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

[General Ludd]

I'll agree to moderation only from Drouge, he seems to be the least biased and corrupt judge on the panel. (although that doesn't say much!)

[GeneralTacticus]

Would the representative of Ubinia care to clarify just why he considers the governments of Centralis and Suomi to be corrupt and biased?

[General Ludd]

You have both made it clear where you stand on the issue - You support the FIR and it's corporations. The Sovietskii Soyuz has even boycotted all trade and and travel with Ubinia, I believe.

[GeneralTacticus]

And this makes us corrupt and biased because...?

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
And this makes us corrupt and biased because...?

Because you're obviously in bed with the corporations, just like the FIR.

[GeneralTacticus]

There is a big difference between supporting people's right to eat meat and supporting a country in protecting that right, and 'being in bed with corporations'.

EDIT: Besides, we might as well accuse you of being corrupt and biased as well, seeing as how you're in bed with the vegitarian and nudist lobbies.

[Drogue]

Yes, you can accuse them of being biased. They are one party in this, so therefore, both Ubinia and F.I.R. are biased, towards themselves. However judges must be impartial. If F.I.R. agree, I am willing to hear it and to mediate, however it will not be an official case.

Since Rasbelin has not responded, and he has posted that he is taking a holiday from 'Poly, I have only two options. I can either appoint reismark as a judge for the first case, as judge D; or I can take the next highest in the poll (H Tower) to replace Rasbelin, since we do not know when he will be back. To be honest, I'm begining to favour the latter option. He is perfectly entitled to take a holiday, but if he intended to, putting himself up for judge seemed a little short-sighted.

[aahz_capone]

Lord Chancellor Capone agrees to mediation by Judge Drogue, and further recognizes Ubinia's concern with other judges. If a replacement judge is necessary, as per Ubinia's request, the F.I.R. will cooperate with Osweld's choice.

[H Tower]

Originally posted by Drogue
Since Rasbelin has not responded, and he has posted that he is taking a holiday from 'Poly, I have only two options. I can either appoint reismark as a judge for the first case, as judge D; or I can take the next highest in the poll (H Tower) to replace Rasbelin, since we do not know when he will be back. To be honest, I'm begining to favour the latter option. He is perfectly entitled to take a holiday, but if he intended to, putting himself up for judge seemed a little short-sighted.

i know i haven't been recognized by the court, however i must inform the judges that I will be away until late saturday night, and therefore unable to participate until after that time

[Drogue]

Would Tassadar of the Sovietskii Soyuz please PM me with what he wishes to say, since proceedings have started. I shall also post a poll as to whether Rasbelin should be replaced by H Tower as a Judge, since he is not here and H Tower was only 1 vote behind.

[red_jon]

I second H Tower as judge.

The Federation refuses to accept orders from the Sovietskii Soyuz and fully support Ubinia in their claims against them.

[Drogue]

Ubinia is not making a claim against the Sovietskii Soyuz, it is against the F.I.R.

[Drogue]

Since Ubinia and F.I.R. have agreed to mediation, but only with myself, that is how the case shall proceed. I call upon both candidates to write their opening statement, in one post only, giving their their complaint[s] with the other party. There is no need for evidence yet. I believe there are counter claims, and as such it is not a strick defendant/claimant case.

Would this thread cease to be polluted by other posts. I would ask that representatives only post when invited. If you have something you wish to add please PM or Telegram myself, and I shall either include it or give permission to post it. This is to be conducted as a court, and as such, I would appreciate order. Otherwise it becomes hard to see what's going on. This thread, and the evidence given, is all I shall rule on. Only evidence given here shall be considered.

The Court recognises the representatives from Ubinia (Osweld) and F.I.R. (aahz_capone) only at the moment. Would Tassadar please PM me with what he wishes to say, and I shall oblige.

[Rasbelin]

What the ...?!? I can't apparently be gone for a few days, without risking to lose the position as a judge in the Apolyton court. Well, I'm still here; alive and kicking, so I assume I'm still in.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Rasbelin
What the ...?!? I can't apparently be gone for a few days, without risking to lose the position as a judge in the Apolyton court. Well, I'm still here; alive and kicking, so I assume I'm still in.

You anounced that you would be leaving, and did not say how long for - what do you expect?




As for the issue between Ubinia and the FIR - I do not really think there is much to be said on the issue. I offered to cease the support of FIR Liberationists for the release of half the imprisoned activists. What has the FIR done? Nothing - except for their leader killing and eating a pygmy gazelle!
The FIR is clearly controled by blood thirsty maniacs, and I really don't see there being any sort of compromise being made here.

[Drogue]

Well, the Liberationists were imprisoned for destroying property, not for their beliefs. If someone breaks a law in your country, should they be freed because some other ruler says so? It is your country, it is your decision what is against the law. I don't think you should be imprisoned for your beliefs, but I don't think you should be free from laws because of them either. However commend your spirit of compromise, and await F.I.R.s reaction.

[aahz_capone]

It is my belief that the hostilities between Ubinia and FIR began when I recieved an issue concerning the violent actions of an extremist animal liberation group. These terrorists damadged much private and public property, disturbed the peace and resisted arrest. My choices in the matter were to either incarcerate these disturbers of the peace, placate them by banning all meat products or impose a tax on meat.

My choice was clear. Besides the fact that one should not appease criminals, it would be an atrocity on the rights of my people to force them to give up meat, a national culinary culture and industry. Secondly, taxing meat would be inqually erronious as it would deprive the lower income families of nutrition and heritage. It is not the policy of the FIR to punish the less fortunate for the good of extremists. The UN can affirm the FIR's excellent civil rights and political freedom record.

But more to the point, regardless of the motive of these terrorists, they broke the law. The rule of Law and the democratic process are considered to be the backbone of society in FIR. Those who break the law show contempt for it and democracy. Instead of following the proper channels these lunatics elect the path of violence. It is a self-defeating path, because then their cause looses backing, no matter how just. This was the case when the individuals arrested were brought to court. No judge in his right mind will sympathise with the cause of those who breed hate and violence in society.

Ubinia has seen it fit to critisize the actions of the FIR. Now I can deal with critisism from neighbouring countries, indeed, that is the way the international communtiy works. But Ubinia have on a number of ocations admitted to supplying these terrorists with sticks and stones. It does not stop there! Ubinia has tried to undermine the fabric of this very nation by spewing anti-corporate propaganda, undemocratic ideologies and insighting unlawful behaviour.

Now Ubinia has the audacity to demand the release of criminals? It has no sovereign duristiction within the FIR. Now, to force my hand in the issue, Ubinia has robbed it's own citizen's right to eat meat, not only disrupting the regional beef market but bringing malnurishment to millions. Usually what a foreign power does within it's own borders is not my concern, but in this case, seeing as Ubinia has seen it fit to intervene in the internal affairs of the FIR I brought this to the attention of the international community.

These are the following grievances commited by Ubinia:

- Disregard for another nation's sovereign power
- Disregard for the UN and the International community
- Supplying terrorists with funding, sticks and stones
- Spreading anti-corporate propaganda within the FIR
- Spreading anti-democratic propaganda within the FIR
- Disillusioning the populance of the FIR to defection
- Limmiting the civil right to meat within Ubinia

The evidence is all to be seen in the forums.

I would like that Ubinia cease and decist with all these practices. The FIR will NOT negotiate with the incarcerated terrorists. Ubinia should thank be damned happy we don't ask for reperations, which is obviously within reason! However in the interest of international peace, we might be willing to take the pygmy gazelle of the menu...

If the release of the criminals is so important to Ubinia (could there be some foreign inflitrators in their ranks? ) then Oswled can always pay their bail, which is within the legal parameters of our courts.

[Drogue]

Does the Honourable Representative from Ubinia have a statement to add?

[General Ludd]

The FIR says that Ubinia is supplying terrorists and spreading "anti-democratic" propaganda. That is not true, the liberationists in the FIR are freedom fighters which are fighting against the oppresion of corporations, and the FIR government - which allows the corporations to exploit the land and manipulate the people.

Furthermore, the release of the liberationists is not important to us - I was merely offering that as compromise to end the need of Ubinia's involvement in the situation.


I would also like to bring the charges of poaching against the FIR - Capone has bragged of eating pygmy gazelles more then once, and is now treating his barbaric behaviour as a bargaining chip by holding the pygmy gazelles ransom.

However in the interest of international peace, we might be willing to take the pygmy gazelle of the menu...

The FIRs blatant disrespect for it's land is quite evident by it's attitude on meat consumption - meat eating a "civil right"? What of the animals being raised in horrendus conditions only to be butchered and eaten!? This is why I supply the liberationists, the FIR has no qualms with murdering for profit.

[General Ludd]

hrm, my last post doesn't seem to be registering on the forum page. (was having some lag when I submitted it, that might be why) just bumping the thread so my reply isn't missed.

[Drogue]

Thank you to the representatives from Ubinia and F.I.R. From what I have read, F.I.R. has accused Ubinia of the crimes:
- Supplying terrorists with funding, sticks and stones,
- Spreading anti-corporate propaganda within the FIR,
- Spreading anti-democratic propaganda within the FIR;
since it's other charges:
- Disregard for another nation's sovereign power
- Disregard for the UN and the International community;
are not illegal, simply frowned upon and:
- Disillusioning the populace of the FIR to defection
- Limiting the civil right to meat within Ubinia;
are inadmissible, because the court cannot force another country to change it's own domestic policy. That is for that country itself to decide.

Also, Ubinia's accusation of eating meat, especially the 'pygmy gazelle', is about F.I.R.'s domestic policy, which is out of my juristiction; as is it's accusation of imprisoning the protestors, which I can only rule on if they are being kept in inhumane conditions. If you wish to accuse them of this, it will require considerable evidence to back it up, since it is such a serious crime against humanity.

Therefore, we shall start with the prosecution (F.I.R. - Aahz_capone). Would you like to call your first witness, or use your first piece of evidence. Please use one post, then the defense (Ubinia - Osweld) will have a chance to cross examine. When you have shown your final piece of evidence, please state that the prosecution rests, and Ubinia will then be able to present it's case.

[General Ludd]

I want to make clear that the pygmy gazelle is native to Ubinia, and aside from being a truelly wonderful and highly respected creature, it is also Ubinia's national animal. Hence, my charges of poaching.

[Drogue]

In that case, we shall conduct F.I.R.'s cases first, and then conduct Ubinia's case for poaching against F.I.R.

Ubinia stands accused of:
- Supplying terrorists with funding, sticks and stones
- Spreading anti-corporate propaganda within the FIR
- Spreading anti-democratic propaganda within the FIR.

F.I.R. stands accused of:
- Poaching the Ubinian pygmy gazelle.

F.I.R. to prosecute first.

[aahz_capone]

The following evidence submitted to the court can be found at this thread:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...0&pagenumber=3

1) In reference to Ubinia supplying funding, sticks and stones to the terrorists apprehended for the afore mentioned crimes, Osweld had made the following statements. The offending remarks pertaining to this specific grievance have been bolded.

Quote 1.1:

Ubinia will continue to (a) provide a safe haven for any prosecuted activists of the Imperial Republics, and (b) supply throwing-stones and hitting-sticks to any who are willing to fight the evils of corporation.
I have no intentions of causing violence, I merely wish to (c)help the enslaved people the Imperial Republics. If that means (d)supplying their activists with throwing-stones, then so be it!

Quote 1.2:

However, I see the wisdom in Akiria's advice, and propose a compromise: if the FIR will agree to release atleast half of the imprisoned activists, Ubinia will agree (a)to stop supplying the activists with throwing stones.
I want to make it clear that I am not backing down, though, and (b)in addition to supplying the FIR's activists with throwing stones, I will be passing an edict shortly to ban meat-eating in Ubinia to show that we will (c) not tolerate these evil corporations exploiting the land and manipulating the people.

Quotes 1.1b, 1.1d, 1.2a and 1.2b are clearly admissions of guilt to supplying the rebels with the armaments to further the violence they embody. We move to stop stick & stones proliferation of this kind into the FIR. It is obvious that Ubinia’s claim not to entice violence is as transparent a lie as “I did not inhale.”
Quote 1.1a is admission to the funding of the terrorists by harboring terrorist HQs within Ubinia where they are out of reach from the law and may continue to build their illegal infrastructure on the basis of black market money.

2) In reference to Ubinia spreading anti-corporate propaganda within the FIR, Osweld had made the following statements. The offending remarks pertaining to this specific grievance have been bolded.

Quote 2.1:

Undemocratic? (a)What could be more democratic then people taking matters into their own hands and waging war on the (b)evil corporations that exploit the earth and oppress the people! Your willingness to help corporations is truly disturbing!
I say to all citizens of the Imperial Republics: Come to the Free lands of Ubinia, where you will be safe of prosecution, and (c)encouraged to take arms against the evil corporations and those who would harbor them!

Quote 2.2:

Yes, you would like it if they (a)complained to their "congress man" wouldn't you, so that you could easily ignore them! It is quite obvious (b)you are merely a lap-dog of corporations, willing turn a blind eye to their evils and help them oppress the people.
You are right, peaceful protest would be ideal - but when the FIR jails activists for destroying the institutions of corporation, (c)they are left no choice but to take up arms against their oppressors.

Quotes 1.2c, 2.1b, 2.1c are clearly anti-corporate propaganda posted in public demonizing the corporations as evil, manipulating and unecological, and Quote 2.2b damns the corporations as oppressive. It cannot be helped that Ubinia has an ideology that outlaws all private enterprise, but this does not give it the right to dictate such extreme measures in other nations. Many nations allow private enterprise and even the socialist and centrist nations allow it to prosper within parameters of their own law. The FIR government has no direct link with the corporations, infact we have banned corporations from sponsoring political parties. Our private sector is not evil nor manipulative, the forests are still standing as a testimony to our ecological agenda and our civil rights and political freedoms record speak for how unoppressive we are. We wish Ubinia to stop these allegations and cease their anti-corporate propaganda as it has no place in the FIR.

3) In reference to Ubinia spreading anti-democratic propaganda within the FIR, Osweld had made the following statements. The offending remarks pertaining to this specific grievance have been noted.

In Quote 1.1c the propaganda tries to mislead the people into thinking they are enslaved, thus implying that the inoffensive centrist democratic process is oppressive. In 2.1a Ubinia encourages the people to take law enforcement into their own hands, clearly an obstruction of democracy, as every political theory student knows that the government’s (and thus police’s) monopoly on force is a cornerstone of democracy. Inciting the people to use for is a direct attack on the democratic process. Quote 2.1c does much the same inciting the people to take up arms. All these are violent means to a hypothetical end that can always be reached by the electoral and debating process of democracy. In quote 2.2a the structure of democracy is put to question as Osweld spreads the lie that our congressmen do not represent the people. In 2.2b the people are misled by the propaganda stating that democracy is a tool of the corporations. And most damning of all, in quote 2.2c Osweld has the gall to directly address my people and “inform” them that the have “no choice” but to become violent and thus anti-democratic!
This evidence clearly speaks for itself!

Beyond this written evidence I would like to submit to the court evidence of the destruction the terrorists did to the downtown Meat-o-market. Tassadar5000 of Sovietskii Soyuz came to an annual meat festival shortly after the incident at my request ( http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=72184 ) and witnessed the after effects.

Before the attack:


After the attack:

[Drogue]

Thank you aahz_capone. Would Osweld like to cross examine the evidence? To dispute its existence, its relevance to the case, or explain your actions?

[General Ludd]

I have never denied supplying the activists, and would not be ashamed to say that I have "spread anti-corporate propaganda", but the FIR's claims of "anti-democratic" propaganda is laughable at best. I was speaking against the FIRs government, where corporations run amock and the people are manipulated into doing and thinking what they're told - there is no democracy there and, as I said, people are left with no choice but to fight the tyranny with violence.

Also, I see no reason to allow Capone to use these images, it is clearly a cheap trick to influence emotions. Why not show them a picture of your meat processing plants, too?

Besides, Ubinia had no part in that attack - we hadn't started supplying the activists untill the FIR jailed them, which was after the incident.



But I do not see this as an issue of what Ubinia has and has not done. I have not tried to hide Ubinia's actions, and I see nothing wrong with them. Would you also condemn someone for helping the people of Lemmington fight against Lemmy's oppresive regime?


And in response to Tassadar's request:

Tassadar has no place in this dispute - it is clearly just more sensationalism, anyways.

[GeneralTacticus]

The government of the Republic of Centralis would like to ask the 'Free Land' of Ubinia what it's reaction would be if political groups within their country began firebombing agricultural collectives, and if furthermore these political groups were funded and armed by a neighbouring power which then demanded their amnesty for them and acted as if it's actions were indisputably justified.

[H Tower]

courts been in session for 15 days now, and nothing has happened. this hearing is only creating more hatred between the two countries.