Cha Dawn: a second glance

[Bblue]

Well, after putting off playing Cheese Dong since the SMACX came out, I have finally gotten around to play this faction over the weekend. In truth I have been dreading it, -1 Eco and -1 Ind are not something that I was looking forward to do.

Now with 2 games under my belt I must say my opinion of this faction has changed quite drastically, though still not my favorite I will be playing with Cha some in the future. So what made me change my intial impression?

I'm a hybrid player, see Scott Johnson's thread on this for a very good discription and discussion of the play style) and Cha Dawn actually does very well for this play style. In the early game it is alabout the native lifeforms. That first mindworm quickly became a small army (3-4) This allowed me 3 things.
1) Without having to build any 'real' units, I could greatly concentrate my base production towards growth (colony pods and formers)
2) The energy collected from the natives that 'didn't see the light' and join me more then made up for the -1 eco in the early game
3) I had a formable small, very mobile, and always better then my enemies army. (btw.. both games I played were on Random world, the fungus on both seemed to be about average, maybe a touch more then average in the second game)

The 3rd point was the biggy in both games with a little monolith visiting to boost the life cycle of the captured worms and the 3:2 advantage of PSI combat plus +20% from faction bonus.. I was easily able to move the neighbors out of the way and in the proccess help myself to some of thier bases. All this without ever getting off the 'builder' model for my bases.

Some stadegy: Once I got foil chassis I rush built 2 gun foils and went out collecting IoD caputing one usually netted me 3 natives. My army and treasury grow and my army gets reinforcements. Drop the worms and spore launchers off where they are needed and I have the IoD for coastal base defense and for more IoD patroling now I have a good size navy too. the intial +2 Planet instead of the +1 the Gaians have seemed to make quite a bit of difference, both on the ease of capture and the number of natives I could have and still caputre more.

Midgame: Most hybrid players tend not to use FM as extensively as builders so the 'lose' of FM isn't devastating. Once my army reached a point where continuing the attacks would have diminishing returns, I stopped the attacks and used the 'free police' to keep the peace and let my city's pop boom a bit. Most for the time I found myself running Demo/Planned with an occassional switch to Green if I didn't need the growth and was on the offensive. Once I built the Asthetic Vitues.. (allowed me 2 police units) time for some more pop booming.

By freeing up my bases to 'build' my population grew much faster then it does in most games. Then supporting that pop. with mindworm police, allows even further growth. Getting the Govenorship away from Lal was fairly easy and early. Also the larger amount of territory expansion in the early game allowed me to build much more feasible 'energy parks' well inside my territory (something that for me is hard to do as I tend to play on standard or smaller maps where there is a limit to land and the AI with airstike the crawlers, I also can't stand to run an empire that is 'too' large; Huge map? I don't see how ya'll stand it, there are other reasons for a smaller map but that is another post )

Anyway, in conclusion, The benefits the faction offers my playstyle seems to balance out the negitives, something I really didn't expect. I'll stop referring to Cha Dawn as Cheese Dong.. It's MR. Chesse Dong from now on

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"Power does not corrupt; it merely attracts the corruptable"

[waynehead]

I think Mr. Cheese Dong may have been prematurely dismissed by a lot of us, just like Mrs. Tree Hugger was. But the problem is, what if you play on a map with little fungus? I'd prefer a faction that can adjust to any conditions, and isn't dependent on native life forms to survive.

[Patriqvium]

I missed that joke. Who was, actually, Mrs. Tree Hugger?

Anyway, those times I play with the Cult I usually wait for Eudaimonia and then overrun everyone with +4 Planet and the both psi-advantage projects (the Dream Twister and Neural Amplifier) and a huge pile of locusts. The problem is just to survive until that point...

[Qilue]

Originally posted by Patriqvium on 01-23-2000 09:12 AM
I missed that joke. Who was, actually, Mrs. Tree Hugger?

Deirdre

[Bblue]

I agree with you Waynehead on liking to play a more versitale faction. With a low fungus setting the early attacks would be a lot more limited. But don't think it would be nearly as bad as say playing Pirates on a 80% land map where they lose all thier real bonuses.
As I am well into my second game with Mr. Cheese Dong I am realizing more and more that the +2 Planet benefits are really nice, BUT it may not be his strongest point! He is a madman for police. This second game I am playing I got the Ascetic Vitures (+1 Police) I didn't have this my first game and I just got the free Brood Pits, Mr. Cheese Dong is now has +3!! Police while running Demo/Green/Know. (waiting on Hab. Domes to get above the 16 limit) Maybe I never relized how powerful +3 police really is. Can have 3 units act as police and doubles thier effect. with 3 police units or mindworms in a city thats 12 drones made content. Size 16 cities with only a rec. center, and a holo theater with 0 Pscyh and I only have 1 loafer. The AV may be to Mr. Cheese Dong what the VW is to Zak.. except better. Never thought I'd say that about the AV
I think my next game I'll play him on a low fungus setting just to see what happens.
[This message has been edited by Bblue (edited January 23, 2000).]

[Lord Maxwell]

Because the code doesn't do what the files says it should do? They use the word "doubles" police effect in the help files. But what the code actually does is that it counts as +1 police unit. So with two doubles you end with two +1, which is +2, so every unit is 3. (As you well have seen.) I've emailed Tim Train about this, but it should go on Zsozso's bug list as well.

[Tau Ceti]

Unless the Mind Worms work differently from units with Non-Lethal Methods, they will only pacify 3 drones each at +3 Police. Do not ask me why.

[Fistleaf]

Some disadvantages:
If you keep attacking with native troops, trance units will be built everywhere and your worms will be eliminated. You simply can't capture as many as needed for a decent war. Furthermore, psi attack almost always damage the attacker so you need plenty of replacements. The Will to Power is simply too far off. You can't really attack until you get free Brood Pits (long long way off) and can build cheaper units.
Advantages:
The real advantage is in defense. You get double Police duty and mindworms can both defend and attack. The Neural Amplifier can be gotten relatively early. Mindworms are good defending against air attacks except missiles. 3:2 disadvantage(+50% N.A.)
compared to a great deal of disadvantage (e.g. 8 attack vs 3 defense) for conventional.

[Bblue]

Opps.. I knew that they only made 3 drones happy (they 'double effect' adds like a combat bonus of +100%), but somewhere along the line I desided I couldn't do math hehehehe. You are correct it calms down 9 drones not 12. Size 16 cities still have only have one loafer.

Fistleaf: You are correct that you can't keep going forever with the native lifeforms, at some point the AI will actually be able to make further attacks too costly, but with the hybrid style your intent isn't to conquer the world, it just an early land grab (get what ya can get, while the gettings good) and at this it is VERY effective. Using decent tactics, the native's ability to heal completely while in a fungus square, and newly recruited re-enforcements the intial push can be substained for quite some time with no base production dedicated toward it (other then 1-2 gun foils). As far as building native units, I don't, unless I am building them for police/garrision duty (or a locust to take empty seabases) late in the game. As far as the Brood Pits are concerned, they give +2 police, everything else is just.. sorta nice, although they do allow me to build mindworms in a turn for late game extra police/defense. Worms do make good garrison units like you mentioned.

I'm into a game with Cha on Rare lifeform settings and there are still plenty of the buggers around to do significant damage to the neigbors So the faction isn't 'heavily' crippled, the biggest lose is the ground fungus and resulting lose of mobility for the worms, you have to be more selective on where and whom you are messing with.

Actually are there any momentum players that have play Cha? The intitial natives followed with the standard early attack units sounds good to me. Eventally phasing your attacking army from natives to 'standard' units.

ACK!!!! I'm actually liking this faction

[Fistleaf]

Momentum players will find it hard to rely on native units alone. Secrets of the human Brain can be researched very early and along comes the Trance Ability to put paid to any conquest plans. Regarding standard units, with the -1 Industry penalty, how are you going to compare with the Hive, Believers? The Spartans have high Morale at least.

[Kinjiru]

I think a momentum player could use Dawn effectively. The -1 industry is only going to exist earyl on right? Well early on, Dawn can probably field a larger army than anyone, including Yang, because Dawn can 'collect' a large number worms insanely easy.

Now of course the enemy will have trance pretty quickly, so Dawn has to use numbers, rather than relying on the PSI advantage. Which again, he can do because it is easy to build a truly large worm army.

[David Byron]

Well I'm certainly turned around on the posibilities of large Planet ratings playing Cha Dawn on Green. Mostly its the Isles of the Deep though. Get a foil out early on and you can easily pick up a half dozen Isles on the sea, dozens of early UN pods, loads of cash, spare independent units and possibly a nice little attack force in worms and spore launchers. Also I've really noticed the difference in entering fungus squares without being bounced half of the time.

Even so I would think the Caretakers would be a better choice. The aliens seem over-powered with three intitial colonists and an ogre, three initial techs, free Recycling and directed research (which implies that everyone else should be playing blind -- just as if you are playing with the Cybernetic Conscience I guess you switch of tech stealing). Seeing the map outline is also pretty nifty. Starting 5 turns later doesn't nearly offset these advantages.

The grid seems better than relying on allies too. If you get Command Nexus early on that's +1 energy in all your bases -- I'd say the ability was the equivalent of +1 economy almost.

[Qilue]

"Also I've really noticed the difference in entering fungus squares without being bounced half of the time."

With a high planet rating, it's better to only move in fungus squares with combat units. The Isle of the Deep is easily the most functional unit in the game with both offensive and cargo-carrying ability with the added benefit of being free with the right SE choice.

Here's a tip though. When capturing, if the isle is carrying a native unit you don't have, the chance of capture is almost certain. Eg, Say it's carrying 1 mind worm and 1 spore launcher and you already have 15 captured isles and an equal number of mind worms but no spare launchers, when the chance of capture is calculated, the program seems to check each unit individually. In this case, when the launcher is checked and passes, you capture the isle and the launcher.

[David Byron]

If that is true maybe a good strategy would be eliminating all spore launchers (never very useful) if you can see you are in that situation (about to attack an IoD carrying a spore launcher).

I'd like more info on the probablitiy of grabbing native lifeforms though. The first one *isn't* automatic; I've failed with Cha Dawn on my first IoD attempt, and with someone else trying to grab a worm (a faction that didn't naturally have a Planet bonus but had Green).

[cbn]

Bump