Great battles that changed history

Chris 62 · January 24, 2001, 14:12

This is another highly subjective topic, but lets hear your top seven(always seven, because that's the number of civs). Since I'm starting this I'll put mine first, in order of there being fought:

Salamis 480 BC: Themistocles' trick ends Xerxes' dream of world conquest.
Gaugamela 331 BC: Alexander's greatest victory gives him a world empire, and leaves Darius' and Persia's dreams of empire forever dead.
Zama 202 BC: Scipio Africanus shatters the army of Hannibal, and teaches Rome the lesson of conquest.
Ain Jalut 1260 AD: One that most people don't know about. Baybars and his Mamluks become the only power to defeat a mongol army, putting a stop to their westward expansion forever.
Trafalgar 1805 AD: Nelson's victory over the Franc-spanish fleet of Villeneuve ends any hope of Napoleon ever defeating Britian, and thus of ever dominating the world.
The Kaiser's battle 1918 AD: Imperial Germany comes withen a wisker of breaking the allies, and thus winning the first world war.
Kursk 1943 AD: Hitler's last great offensive in Russia ends in disaster as Stalin knows when and were the Nazis will strike.

That's my list,let's here yours and don't forget to say why.

[This message has been edited by cpoulos (edited March 17, 2001).]

Prometeus · January 24, 2001, 16:36

Vittorio Veneto, 1918: Austro-hungarians were crushed, and Italians were able to seriously menace Bavarian lands... so that's another reason why Germany surrended to allies. And people don't know really much about this historical event.

A quote:
The "schwerpunkt" was keeped a secret by Diaz, the Italian Army's Chief. When he took on the map to show it to others officers, he didn't find it, so he asked in napolitan dialect to his officer, Lieautenant Nievo ( the famous writer ): "'Nne, Nievo, andù 'ssta 'sto ***** 'e Vittori' e' Veneto?"...

Chris 62 · January 24, 2001, 17:00

quote:

Originally posted by Prometeus on 01-24-2001 03:36 PM
Vittorio Veneto, 1918: Austro-hungarians were crushed, and Italians were able to seriously menace Bavarian lands... so that's another reason why Germany surrended to allies. And people don't know really much about this historical event.

Becuase of Capporetto the previous year, this front was heavily shored up by both Britain and France. The Germans didn't care about it, and the Austrians couldn't do anything about it. The gains made by Italy were mostly striped at Versailles after the war, and were totally lost after the second world war. An aside: what does your scenario chung kuo represent? Sadly I can't speak Italian.

Jay Bee · January 24, 2001, 18:08

May 7 Spain-o-centric picks:

(in chronological order)

1. Guadalete or La Janda (711). The battle that allowed the Moors to enter Iberia. Some historians doubt that this battle really took place.

2. Las Navas de Tolosa (1212). The Christian kingdoms of Spain unite to defeat the infidel. This battle opened the roads to the richest cities of Al-Andalus.

3. Aljubarrota (1385). The battle that secured Portuguese independence from Castile. Still today, the main reason for the existence of two separate states within the Iberian peninsula.

4. Lepanto (1571). The naval battle that ended Turkish threats on the Mediterranean sea.

5. Rocroi (1643). The battle that... snif... put an end to 150 years of Spanish supremacy on the battlefield.

6. Trafalgar (1805) or this is what happens when you let the French command...

7. Bailen (1808) First time a Napoleonic army was defeated in a pitched battle.
[This message has been edited by Jay Bee (edited January 25, 2001).]

Chris 62 · January 24, 2001, 18:38

quote:

Originally posted by Jay Bee on 01-24-2001 05:08 PM
May 7 Spain-o-centric picks:

I wanted to do that in spanish forum Jay Bee!

Wiglaf · January 24, 2001, 18:51

Hey guys? I'd hate to be a jerk, but isn't this a bit off topic?

Chris 62 · January 24, 2001, 19:00

quote:

Originally posted by SMACed on 01-24-2001 05:51 PM
Hey guys? I'd hate to be a jerk, but isn't this a bit off topic?

It is indeed

popcornvendor · January 24, 2001, 21:38

i think the Battle of San Jacinto is very important. they texans beat the mexicans there, and were declared independent. this led to the Mexican War thing where the United States got all the western land. This helped america become a superpower, i think. (i failed history so dont hurt me too bad)

Chris 62 · January 24, 2001, 21:41

quote:

Originally posted by popcornvendor on 01-24-2001 08:38 PM
i think the Battle of San Jacinto is very important. they texans beat the mexicans there, and were declared independent. this led to the Mexican War thing where the United States got all the western land. This helped america become a superpower, i think. (i failed history so dont hurt me too bad)

Your opinion is as valid as mine

Prometeus · January 25, 2001, 02:15

quote:

Originally posted by cpoulos on 01-24-2001 04:00 PM...what does your scenario chung kuo represent?

It's a China scenario, about the lat part of Warring states period (403BC-221BC), i.e. the Yin Zheng kingdom.

I'm working on a modified english version now.

johnmcd · January 25, 2001, 06:41

I would say the Battle of the Somme is of immense importance in showing the horror of mechanised war, revolutionising social relations, fermenting political change and, through the Great War in total, bringing female equality closer.

East Street Trader · January 25, 2001, 09:20

Jay Bee

Did you consider for inclusion La Armade Grande of 1588?

Sieve Too · January 25, 2001, 10:26

All good ones so far. A few more biggies:

1) Battle of Saratoga. A sorely needed win for the American Rebels. Gave Franklin the edge he needed to convince France to help the American upstarts. England still grew to dominance in the 19th century but she may have become invincible if she was also able to control most of the vast American continent.

2) Battle of Britain. Permanently stalls Hitler's westward expansion. Forces him to fight a two-front war and allows America, Britain and Canada the time to build up a massive invasion army.

3) Agincourt. Lords and Knights vs mere peasants with longbows. The end of the unbeatable man in armor.

4) Monitor vs Merrimac. Suddenly, every naval vessel in the entire world became obsolete. Started great nations down the path that eventually led to huge battleships.

5) Battle of Midway. The end of the battleship era. A much larger Japanese fleet is defeated almost soley by air power.

6) Desert Storm. Air power as a demoralizing force. Green volunteers with high tech defeat 8+ year veteran elite forces.

johnmcd · January 25, 2001, 10:33

quote:

Originally posted by Sieve Too on 01-25-2001 09:26 AM

1) Battle of Saratoga. A sorely needed win for the American Rebels. Gave Franklin the edge he needed to convince France to help the American upstarts. England still grew to dominance in the 19th century but she may have become invincible if she was also able to control most of the vast American continent.

Sieve, why are you able to distinguish between ‘England’ and ‘Britain’ when it comes to WWII but not in the American War of Independence? I have no pride in the British Empire, but really.

Gozer · January 25, 2001, 12:10

quote:

Originally posted by johnmcd on 01-25-2001 09:33 AM
Sieve, why are you able to distinguish between ‘England’ and ‘Britain’ when it comes to WWII but not in the American War of Independence? I have no pride in the British Empire, but really.

Never thought I'd see a Scotsman come defend the English!

In the US, we tend to equivocate "Britain", "England" and "The UK", although they are/were all separate entities. It's the same laziness that we use when we refer to citizens of the United States as "Americans" - not strictly true and in fact can be a source of insult to Mexicans, South Americans, etc.

In short, the individual terms have no loaded or political undercurrents here in the US and it is easy for us to forget to be precise.
[This message has been edited by Gozer (edited January 25, 2001).]

johnmcd · January 25, 2001, 12:35

I’m not defending the English, just pointing out an important distinction, a distinction that thousands gave their lives to maintain.

My advice would be that, if in doubt, say British (most things of international importance happened after the Union of the Crowns) and be prepared to be gently informed that it was either an English atrocity or a Scottish achievement

if you got it wrong, rather than inappropriately dishing everything onto the English as it means we Scots are being forgotten in favour of our larger neighbour, not something we like.

Chris 62 · January 25, 2001, 14:30

quote:

Originally posted by johnmcd on 01-25-2001 05:41 AM
I would say the Battle of the Somme is of immense importance in showing the horror of mechanised war, revolutionising social relations, fermenting political change and, through the Great War in total, bringing female equality closer.

The somme is an excellent example of the futility of the first world war. 50,000 men killed or wounded in less then an hour chills the mind and darkens the sprit. It's also an excellent example of the narrow minds of the allied high commands in the great war.

East Street Trader · January 25, 2001, 15:02

The Somme was indeed awful but Verdun is acknowledged as the most bloody of all the first world war battles, 770,000 casualties, I think.

I stand to be corrected but I believe that it is said in France to be a part of the reason that there was no great enthusiasm for the second world war there because of the effect the senseless slaughter at Verdun had on the psyche of the nation.

Some of the early WW1 battles gain yet greater poignancy in the UK because the men who fought were volunteers. The men from many of the northern towns all joined up together and went into the same regiment. They then all went into battle together and such was the carnage in the early trench warfare battles that a number of towns lost all but a handful of its young men on a single day.

Hard to imagine being in Huddersfield or Warrington on the day when telegrams announcing the death of so many were all arriving at once.

I saw a last remnant of the consequence of the carnage in my early years in practice in Canterbury. I noticed that I had quite a few elderly female clients all of whom were genteel, in slightly straitened circumstances, and all of whom were spinsters.

In 1918 it was impossible, if you came from a certain class, to marry outside that class. But the casualty rate among young subalterns - who had to lead their men over the top - was pretty well 100%. So the girls of an entire generation lost their chance of a socially acceptable marriage.

Chris 62 · January 25, 2001, 15:40

For East Street Trader: When speaking about Verdun, it is important to point out that the battle lasted for ten months, but yes, it was the most costly. Your causality total is actually on the low side, but such number crunching is irrelevant. Your point about how poignant it is that the heavest losses were among the volunteers is well taken. This whole war was pointless. We know that the Austrians started it to try to unite their fading empire(Conrad's sickening quote comes to mind: Austria must wage war for political reasons), but what did Imperial Germany hope to gain? They must have understood that their overseas colonies would be lost, and that Britain would not stand aside if the neutrality of Belgium was violated. Hoping for a repeat of the Franco-Prussian war was unrealistic. All the powers seem to have been swept up in a mania of nationalism. This was the most tragic war ever fought, and the women you mention were a tangible example of it.
[This message has been edited by cpoulos (edited January 25, 2001).]

Chris 62 · January 25, 2001, 16:30

quote:

Originally posted by Jay Bee on 01-24-2001 05:08 PM

6. Trafalgar (1796) or this is what happens when you let the French command...

For shame, Jay Bee. Trafalgar was fought in october of 1805!

Who said: The French adrmiral does not know his bussiness. The fleet is lost.

Chris 62 · January 25, 2001, 16:32

Let's here some others.
[This message has been edited by cpoulos (edited January 25, 2001).]

Jay Bee · January 25, 2001, 17:47

quote:

For shame, Jay Bee. Trafalgar was fought in october of 1805!

Who said: The French adrmiral does not know his bussiness. The fleet is lost.

Aaargh....! I corrected it at almost the same time you posted this! You beat me to the punch for a few seconds

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"Our community extends beyond national frontiers. Whether it is an Argentinian or a Spaniard, a Chilean or a Mexican, we all know as children that our national language is the language of many nations, and that it was born in Spain many centuries ago... without it, our people would not exist"

Octavio Paz, Mexican Writer. Nobel Laureate 1990, Cervantes Prize 1982
[This message has been edited by Jay Bee (edited January 25, 2001).]

BeBro · January 25, 2001, 18:06

Ah, stupid multiple post

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BeBro · January 25, 2001, 18:08

[This message has been edited by BeBro (edited January 25, 2001).]

BeBro · January 25, 2001, 18:09

[This message has been edited by BeBro (edited January 25, 2001).]

BeBro · January 25, 2001, 18:12

490BC, Marathon: Athen´s Phalanx shows the superiority of the heavy armoured Hoplites against the Persians

31BC, Actium: Octavian´s admiral Agrippa destroys the fleets of Kleopatra and M.Antonius, and secures the power for caesar´s successor

732AD, Karl Martell´s victory against the Arabs at Tours and Portiers saves the Christian Europe

1789, Storm on the Bastille (ok, this was no real battle

)

And I´m surprised that nobody has mentioned Stalingrad here...

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Civ2000

Chris 62 · January 25, 2001, 18:48

quote:

Originally posted by BeBro on 01-25-2001 05:12 PM
490BC, Marathon: Athen´s Phalanx shows the superiority of the heavy armoured Hoplites against the Persians

31BC, Actium: Octavian´s admiral Agrippa destroys the fleets of Kleopatra and M.Antonius, and secures the power for caesar´s successor

732AD, Karl Martell´s victory against the Arabs at Tours and Portiers saves the Christian Europe

1789, Storm on the Bastille (ok, this was no real battle

)

And I´m surprised that nobody has mentioned Stalingrad here...

Except for the storming of the bastille, I had all four of these in mind when I started this.

Chris 62 · January 25, 2001, 18:56

quote:

Originally posted by Jay Bee on 01-25-2001 04:47 PM
Aaargh....! I corrected it at almost the same time you posted this! You beat me to the punch for a few seconds

Heh,Heh,Heh...

Prometeus · January 25, 2001, 19:38

quote:

Originally posted by cpoulos on 01-25-2001 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeBro on 01-25-2001 05:12 PM

1789, Storm on the Bastille (ok, this was no real battle

)

Oh yeah, and nobody knows the one that moved people to assault Bastille by screaming:"Help, they are going to torture me!!!" was the infamous Marquis de Sade...

Wiglaf · January 25, 2001, 21:25

quote:

It is indeed

Quick, turn this in to a "great fake civ2 battles that changed fake civ2 history" thread before anyone notices