Spoiler Thread for AU 203 - Page 3

trickey · January 6, 2003, 20:54

Bah, I can't win. I tried against Babylon, my Cavalry were dropping like flies against the Babylonian Infantry. I dont have a clue what to do. They just produce sooo many Infantry, I can't compete. I am definatly going to finish the game, but I have pretty much givin up all hopes of winning now

Too bad the game was so tough, we didnt really get to test communism to well, did we? (If someone did, speek up!)

ducki · January 7, 2003, 01:25

Well, I've been dancing with China, as you can see below.

They keep sending Archers and Warriors into my territory, I block the hole, they leave, I open the hole, ad infinitum. Now I'm seeing Med.Inf, too, and getting worried - who are they sending these troops against? They are not at war...yet.
We have trade deals, so I hope it's not me, but I can't open my interior up without serious risk.

Previously, I built the Great Library, so I was able to save up a bit of cash for when Knights rolled around by leaving my Research at ZERO until this turn.

When I entered the Middle Ages, I really needed a Wonder to replace my placeholder, the Pyramids, as Persia would complete it in a couple of turns, so I did something I never do - gave tech away for free!
Not to everyone, mind you, but to every Scientific civ, I sold or gifted (at any price) the techs needed to get them into the Middle Ages. I needed someone to get me to Invention ASAP since I didn't really want SunTzu's, but preferred Leo's for this situation.
It paid off. Persia finished Tzu's 2 turns before me, but a few turns after Invention was discovered.

I got Leo's - which, as a surprise to me, began my Golden Age.

Which is where I am now.

Do I try my hardest to maintain peace with China while building infrastructure, finishing my FP 1 turn before the GA ends(see screenshot) and trying to claw my way back up to my former position of second from my current fourth?

Or do I switch every available city, barracks or not, to Knights and call China's hand, demanding they leave or declare war?

I would almost welcome a war, but I hate to blow my GA building Knights, which I can't use to attack with. My road network is complete bunk, many cities are working unimproved tiles, and I have no idea how I'm going to hang on until Communism.

Oh, and my research path. Since I only just reinstated my researchers, I decided to head for Democracy, not to switch, but to sell. I pretty aggressively steered the AIs towards Invention/Gunpowder, even giving away Engineering/Feudalism to a couple, hoping to a)get all the way to Invention for free(done!), b)extend the life of my Great Library(done a little!) and c)attempting to keep more AI civs "in the tech game" so I wasn't the only "weak" target(done!).

Now I've got a tough decision ahead, but the fact that I can't invade and put some hurt on is pushing me towards attempting to maintain peace for the next 19 turns.

I'm not even to the "meaty" part of this game yet and I'm already somewhat exhausted, but this is a complete blast!

laissez-faire · January 7, 2003, 01:41

ducki, your game looks hauntingly similar to mine (side note: one of the most fascinating things about the AU games is watching the different performances of the AI civs in everyone's games). My map attached below is at 1600AD on the advent of replaceable parts hitting German factories.

You mentioned Chinese troops repeatedly trying to come into your territory, wondering where they were going. If Mao has been passive towards you, he is probably going to Russia or Persia for some bloodlust. I was a spectator for three major Sino-Persian wars on occur on my territory. I let them duke it out for two reasons: 1) to exhaust their economies and slow down their tech pace (although THAT didn't seem to work very well); and 2) to keep them out of my business. Amazingly Otto has gone 5,600 years withough one drop of German blood being shed to foreign blade or bullet.

The time is quickly approaching though. The German people are restless and bored with their leaders' isolationism. They feel the world has got it all wrong and needs some serious and rapid Germanization.

ducki, where will you go once you get and decide to 'invoke' Communism? I think I'm planning on hitting Persia first, allying with China (surely Mao will be sympathetic to the proletariat trying to overcome). However, China is the tech leader, and I should consider bringing him down earlier rather than later. Decisions, decisions.

The world according to Germany in 1600AD:

ZargonX · January 7, 2003, 02:16

Out of curiosity, were the people who had China absolutely crushing the world playing with the AU mod? I've been dealing with a world-dominating China and a rest-of-world-dominating Persia, and I'm playing with the mod. I know it was designed to help breed a killer AI, so it seems to have succeeded.

laissez-faire · January 7, 2003, 02:35

Zargon,

I am playing with the AU mod. China and Persia seem to be on even and powerful keels. Someone must have said something in ancient times to set the stage for millenia to come because they absolutely hate each other. The armies they send are quite large and the battles are bloody; but because their strengths are about the same, they are always merely wars of attrition.

Dominae · January 7, 2003, 03:17

Ok, my game is far enough ahead now that I can allow myself a peek at this spoiler thread. I must say, I quite like what I'm seeing. I'll post an report of my game thus far (1300AD) tomorrow afternoon. For now I have some general comments:

1. Community interest

I'm really glad there are so many people taking an interest in this game! Just a couple of days, and this thread is getting huge. I'm very impressed at the average level of skill of all AU "students". This is not an easy game, people, so give yourselves a thumbs up (but do not forget to stick in there and win it for the Communists!).

I'm especially happy to hear that everyone is taking this game as a learning experience. I had a feeling that most players feel the need to warmonger early to remain competitive (I know I do), so it's nice to see people change their routine. Similarly, I doubt most of us look forward to an big Industrial era war. In my case, I thought I had them game in hand, then remembered that I've got some serious conquering to do! Although later wars can be tedious, at least this scenario provides a reason to see it through.

2. Scenario setup

BRC, you're twisted and evil, but you sure know how to cook up a fun game! From the presence of Killer AIs to the opportunity for early survival due to chokepoints, you've made this The Power of Communism a success, IMHO. I was somewhat surprised to see the unnatural distribution of resources, but now that I'm quite far along I wouldn't change a thing (ok, maybe put the Furs just a bit northward so that I wouldn't have to expand so far to get them, but that's it!). Nice work.

3. Rules and retaliation

I forget who pointed this out, but the fact that the rules prevent you from retaliating against a fast-mover (i.e. Cavalry) if they're not in your borders is just brutal. I think I've been fending off the same 15 Chinese Cavalry now for about 30 turns. They bump up against my Infantry, go down to 1HP, and retreat to heal every single time. The only upside is that all my units are Elites, so the Leader potential is huge.

4. Killer AIs

Although I believe that the presence of Killer AIs in this scenario is mostly due to the map layout, there is definitely something about the AU mod that is helping too. In my game, the Persians were nearly unstoppable early on, so much so that I think they could have won the game with Knights if I had not pulled some devious diplomatic maneuvers ("sure, you can attack the Chinese through my lands, but there's an awful lot of troops along the chokepoints...you may find it so crowded that you'll just have to turn back and take the long way after all"). I'm sad to hear that the AI does not threaten Domination, even with the current changes. This is definitely something Firaxis needs to fix.

5. Nor Me's game

Nice job playing it through to the very end. If anything, you're gathering valuable informatino about how Killer AIs handle the end-game (not so well, from your comments). At this point, if you manage to win the game by with any victory condition, I'm sure you'll get an excellent grade.

Ok, gotta sleep. I'll post tomorrow.

Dominae

ducki · January 7, 2003, 09:38

Germany - AUMod - Monarch

Yup, plum loco.

I just had to know if my longtime trading partner, Mao, would break off a luxury deal merely because I demanded he respect my sovereign borders.

He did, and declared war.
Fortunately I had already knighted half a dozen Horsemen for this possibility.

On the same turn, I convinced everyone I could without spending cash to join my cause.
Catherine and Caesar both joined for tech or luxury or both, and 1 turn later, Elizabeth did the same, losing the two towns on my border(damn!) even though I gifted her with Gunpwder after checking to ensure she had Saltpeter.

My GA is just past half over, I think, and I just learned of an extremely gifted general in my military called Barbarossa. I've asked him to create a formal Army and report on its uses. I could send him to Frankfurt to inspire the builders of my vacation retreat, but our people are already doing so much, and our military could use a boost.

Education is still currently undiscovered and I've distributed the knowledge of Gunpowder far and wide, hoping to further delay Education.

P.S. - See what you guys have done to me, Theseus? I found a way to start a war even here. Unless I get more leaders, though, the only real value will be Persia's, aside from this odd sense of glee have now.
Strangely, no Riders. Maybe I can get out of the war before they become a problem.

ducki · January 7, 2003, 10:07

Another strange note on my war...
When China declared war, it broke two 20-turn trade deals, yet in buying Russia, Rome, and England into the deal, all 3 are Gracious to me.

Shouldn't they be cranky about the broken trade deal?

Nor Me · January 7, 2003, 11:32

Quote:

Originally posted by ducki
Shouldn't they be cranky about the broken trade deal?

Why? It wasn't with them. The only effect should be their being reluctant to do similar deals with you.

Does anyone know why the AIs researched Chemistry before Banking in my game? I don't.

ducki · January 7, 2003, 11:48

That's not how it normally is for me, NorMe.
Usually, if you break a 20-turn deal with any AI, the rest of the AIs start to drive really hard trade bargains and get cranky, because you can't be trusted, are a "back-stabber".

I wonder if that reputation hit got fixed for when the human is not in any way at fault for the deal falling through...

joncnunn · January 7, 2003, 11:55

This is called the age of defense.

You need lots of artillery to fight an offensive war when the oppoents have infentry and you don't have tanks.

See the Civ III Democracy game which is currently succefully fighting an offensive war during the age of defense.

The alternative is to just foritfy your own Infentry in place and slaughter the AI's infentry as they attack.

Quote:

Originally posted by trickey
Bah, I can't win. I tried against Babylon, my Cavalry were dropping like flies against the Babylonian Infantry. I dont have a clue what to do. They just produce sooo many Infantry, I can't compete. I am definatly going to finish the game, but I have pretty much givin up all hopes of winning now

Too bad the game was so tough, we didnt really get to test communism to well, did we? (If someone did, speek up!)

Jawa Jocky · January 7, 2003, 12:44

Quote:

Originally posted by jshelr
I don't believe I've ever heard of the AI getting a domination win.

I've managed to lose a game this way. It was several months ago so my memory is a little foggy. I apologize for going off topic, but I did want to bring it to the class' attention that an AI domination win can happen

It was the first time I made it very far on the Emperor level. I was on a fairly small island and everyone else was on a big continent. One AI was slowly killing off everyone else and taking control of the continent. They even tried to invade me, but my build up of battleships and tanks made me to difficult to attack. I was only a couple of parts away from winning a SS when the AI achieved an domination victory.

I think there are 2 reasons why we don't see very many AI domination victories.

1) They spent a lot of time balancing the civs against each other when they created the AI for this game. They didn't want civs to run away with the game.

2) We don't stick around on lost games long enough to see the outcome.

And back on topic.

I'm having a hard time on Monarch too due to the warmongering limitations. I'm never this small going into the industrial era.

joncnunn · January 7, 2003, 12:57

I think that on smaller maps that the AI is much more likely to achieve a Domination victory mostly because even over the OCN limit the AI will keep cities with luxary and strategic resources, and there seems to be a higher percentage of cities with at least 1 resources on smaller maps than the larger ones.

It's also easier for 1 AI to run over 2 other AIs than 5.

Jawa Jocky · January 7, 2003, 14:28

joncnunn just made me remember that my Domination loss was on a small map.

Nor Me · January 7, 2003, 14:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Jawa Jocky
1) They spent a lot of time balancing the civs against each other when they created the AI for this game. They didn't want civs to run away with the game.

2) We don't stick around on lost games long enough to see the outcome.

Neither of these apply to why the Chinese didn't acheive domination in my game. The map size probably is the deciding factor.

The Chinese were given plenty of opportunity to settle the former Russian territory since I had to use galleons to get there:

Dominae · January 7, 2003, 16:42

Nor Me, might I suggest that you play another dozen or so turns, then post your results on the "Why, oh why..." AI thread. Clearly there is something wrong with the code if the Chinese cannot pull a win in that situation.

Maybe Mao is just milking his score...

Dominae

Dominae · January 7, 2003, 19:55

I focus on expansion in the early game, as this is the only way to be competitive without attacking the AI. I set up Granaries in 3 of my core cities, and build nothing but Warriors and Workers in all others until enough food is available for a Settler. With the wonderful start location, I have a high enough Shield output to produce a Barracks in a couple of my Settler-pump cities, and I use those to produce Veteran Spearmen.

I could have built Temples in my outlying cities to boost Culture, but I was not happy about this option because Literature would bring a far better option in all respects, the Library (lower cost, higher culture, better effect). So I wait for Literature to build any improvements (other than the initial Granaries and Barracks), at which point I poprush Libraries in all my cities at the first available opportunity.

Upon seeing the 2 chokepoints, I send all my military units to these in hopes of slower down AI expansion. This means leaving all my cities undefended, but at this point I'm convinced Barbs are not a problem.

I research Iron Working first in hopes of trading it for most of the first level techs, with mixed results. I keep up fair enough, and reach the Medieval age one turn behind China and Persia.

Sometime during expansion, I discover a nice side-effect of having multiple backwater civs: Worker buying is back! Since I'm not worried about trading techs away to these puny civs (Romans, English and to some extent Russians and Aztecs), I can trade for Workers easily. I end up with a set of 2 Workers from each of these civs (4 from Russia, actually). That's 10 Workers before I even built another myself!

I'm psyched that expansion is going so well, but I'm painfully aware that I'm far behind in infrastructure, Wonders and basically everything else. China and Persia scare me, because I just know they're going to reduce their weaker neighbors to pulp before I can do anything about it. Will I ever get to be a Communist? I dream of the day...

Here's a screenshot of shortly after I hit the Medieval age. As you can see, the Persians stole my Furs right from under me. Also, I'm surprised to see that I'm actually second in Power; maybe builder is not so bad after all!

Dominae · January 7, 2003, 20:24

Although I would love to keep the peace with everyone and trade away, the other civs are convinced that I'm evil and thus feel the need to make demands every few turns. Eventually, the Russians ask for Theology or something similarly ridiculous, and I'm convinced I can fend them off so I refuse. Sure, enough, they're not quite powerful enough to punch through my defenses. But, at the end of the war, they get the Persians in the action. Uh oh. Suddenly, I've got about 20 Knights to deal with. Things do not go well, and I have to abandon a few cities and pull back.

The Persians eventually threaten me enough that I get Russia to ally with me (for Chivalry and Engineering, I think). My military at this point is something like 8 Pikemen, and 2 Spearmen and 4 Knights, so I cannot hope to push back the Persians without some help. The Persians easily overrun the Russians; I've created a monster! The Persians lose their bloodlust after killing countless Russians (something to do with reaching the OCN?), and we sign a perpetual peace agreement.

I'm racing for Sistine at this point, and it occurs to me that Bach's would be a much better Wonder for this game. I hit Education and hold off on trading it until I'm very close to Music Theory (the AIs are busy with Printing Press and Invention). I then sell Education to obtain tech parity, and switch to Bach's.

And this is when the game completely turns to my favor.

I know the AI will offer a nice price for Music Theory since I have not completed yet (actually I'm around 20 turns away, so I suppose I tricked them). However, I was not expecting an average of 50 gpt from the Big Three (Persian, China, Babylon). With these funds I jump ahead in tech, and act as a tech broker until the end of the Medieval age in order to ensure my lead. I focus on the required techs (with a sidestep for Smith's), and reach the Industrial age a full 3 techs ahead of the competition.

My military is horrible at this point, with fewer than 20 troops. I'm concentrating on being a builder, and a builder I am! I decide to build the Forbidden Palace just south of Berlin (roughly where the two "arms" meet...Heidelberg in the screen below). The spot is not ideal (lots of Desert and Plain tiles), but I want all my own cities to be maximally productive when I reach Industrialization. At first, the FP takes 200 turns to complete, but Corruption ends up not being so bad and I finish it in around 40 instead (this seemed a little easy, perhaps the new Corruption in Despotism is too low).

Here is a screenshot from the turn after I complete the Forbidden Palace in Heidelberg.

Dominae · January 7, 2003, 20:47

I hit the Industrial age in 800AD. I begin producing military units in my cities that are done infrastructure-wise, because I feel that Persia or China will not put up with my sudden jump in power for long. All other cities are busy with most improvements, with the exception of Cathedrals (too many Luxuries!).

Sure enough, China declares war in 950AD, and even though they're 4th in the power ranking, they have the largest military, as I soon learn. They are also the only civ with Military Tradition, and their Cavalry comes knocking on my door. I'm counting on my Riflemen to hold them off, but losses are higher than expected. Caught once more unprepared for battle, I get the Persians to ally with me, for the painful cost of Steam Power. This is actually great for me, because now the world's largest military powers are fighting it out. I steal Military Tradition from the Babs to defend myself better, but largely avoid the war.

I get two Leaders during these turns. One makes an Army, the other rushes the Heroic Epic. With all my Elite units, I expect many Leaders in the near future. I end up disappointed.

I hit Industrialization and complete "industrializing" (rails everywhere, Factories everywhere) by 1160AD. The AI is losing the race fast: when I complete the Theory of Evolution, they're still getting Sanitation and Espionage. When I reach Radio, no other civ has Electricity, and I'm getting a tech every 7 turns. Ah, if only the AI could understand the Industrial age!

The Theory of Evolution triggers my Golden Age (unexpectedly, I'm embarrassed to say). I use it to further complete all infrastructure in my cities, all the way up to Stock Exchanges.

The year is now 1300AD. I'm waiting to get Panzers to jump into Communism, at which point I really start playing AU203. My short-term plan when I get out of my GA is to beeline for Tanks, and use Mobilization as a second Golden Age to crank out units. The campaign will be against Persia, and oh it will be sweet.

Below is a screen from my current turn. The Chinese have sent countless troops against my fortifications on the English border. All my other cities are undefended.

Dominae

trickey · January 7, 2003, 21:16

Your game is looking great so far Dominae

I think I'm going to try AU 203 again, with a different approch this time. (I know I will have an advantage, but who cares).

Btw, Dominae, what difficulty are you playing on?

EDIT: To spell Dominae's name right

Dominae · January 7, 2003, 21:28

trickey, trying the game the second time is a great idea; you'll see what works and what doesn't. Please post your results when you're done.

I'm playing on Emperor.

Dominae

laissez-faire · January 7, 2003, 21:30

Act II – A Reactivist Germany

Great game, Dominae. Your tech brokering puts me to shame. You are about 300 years ahead of me.

1600AD saw the introduction of replaceable parts to my German industry and the Hessian people suddenly became fascinated with the idea of military units. They still had never actually seen them work, but the sight of them increased the rhythm of their Teutonic blood. Running parallel to this military build-up, there began a workers’ movement that stated all German brothers to be equal. In the mid-18th century, a man by the name of Marx circulated a Manifesto and debates across the country flourished. There were riots, expropriations and a few assassinations, all culminating in the October Revolution of 1786.

In that same year a world war began. The Triple Alliance (China, Babylon, and the Aztecs) had declared Persia to be an evil empire. Much like 1930s Spain, the new ruling party of Germany thought it an excellent opportunity to test out their newfound military swing. Controlling the chokepoints, I also controlled the input of units from the world’s largest military (China) which means Mao did not get anything onto the battlefield after his first wave of tanks. In less than 20 years, millions of Persian children were learning German in school.

The war was short and now I am running a peaceful communism. It is 1850AD (see map below), and I find myself at The Pivotal Point of my game. I am at least 3-4 techs behind both Babylon and China. I see Babylonian Mech. Infs, but have yet to see a Chinese one.

A thought I’m having is to sign a life-long brotherhood pact with Hammurabi, then gang the Aztecs and the German-Babylonian Alliance against China to bring that civ down to its knees. China has several key wonders including STWA, LW, JSBC, and the HD. The idea behind the pact with the Babs would be to win a Domination victory without ever having to raise arms up against them.

The Issues

The pros of Communism – Excellent for wartime happiness. Excellent for conquering an empire and building temples/libraries to repel resistors and expand borders (conquered large Persian cities spit a temple out in 2 turns with no pop-rushing). Excellent for a sprawling empire.
The cons of Communism – Science, and being profitable at science.

Ideally, I would like to have computers before a war with China, but with Communism in-place it will take a while (currently researching Radio with about 5 turns to go; Computers will take an anticipated 15 turns). Is it worth the 8-turn switch to Democracy and back? I have an available leader for a palace-flip to Persepolis which, with the FP located at the ‘fork,’ would do democracy really well. I have a full day at work to think about it. Any help would certainly be appreciated.

Note: Dominae, strange. I built ToE but it did not trigger my GA. Is this a random variable?

The World According to Germany in 1850AD

Dominae · January 8, 2003, 00:01

laissez-faire, nice report on your game (especially the quasi-historical bits!). You seem to have piloted the Communist Germans well. Now you need to finish it off!

Without having seen your game, it is difficult to say if a switch to Democracy and back would be useful. My gut reaction is to say no, unless you plan to get a tech lead while in Democracy, or at least obtain techs the AI doesn't have. All you need now are MI and MAs; secure those and you should be fine.

I trigged a GA with the Theory of Evolution (Scientific) because I had previously built the Universal Suffrage (Militaristic) (useless in this scenario, I know, but I miscalculated the ToE prebuild...at least it forces the AI to be in Communism if they are at war, which is a good thing).

Dominae

jshelr · January 8, 2003, 11:53

Interesting game from a difficulty point of view.

I stayed in republic in this game and missed ToE by one turn and longevity by two turns, probably nipped by leaders. Ugh. So, we are still lumbering along just behind the tech leaders with endless RoP agreements to keep everyone from attacking. At least the RR buildout lets them go back and forth through Germany without my having to watch each unit take each step. If the mod's intent is to downgrade republic as an effective form of government, I think it's working well.

I'm probably crazy, but am I wrong to recall that sometimes a palace build with one turn left will have produced enough shields to build ToE immediately? This game the result was 15 turns to ToE and I'm a bit confused as to why so much time was left......

On the golden age, we are planning to trigger it with panzers. In fact, I can't wait until panzers are available...

laissez-faire · January 8, 2003, 12:07

Act III - Scene I - Bloodlust

I monitored China with each turn, watching my turns-to-Computers drop one at a time. Suddenly in dropped from 14 turns to 8, and sure enough both China and the Aztecs had picked it up (Babylon had it and four other techs on top of it all along). With that, I decided the time had come for war; but how war came about is actually pretty funny.

I had an MPP signed with the Aztecs and the Babs and China was all over my territory (mostly with workers). I demanded Computers from them, but they refused. I went to declare war but accidentally hit "Remove your troops..." instead. I didn't want to risk them removing all their workers because I wanted to capture them and, under communism, conscript them into lean mean infantries. Luckily Mao didn't recall them, and declared war on me.

And so it began with the most important stats as:
Tanks
Germany - 70
China - 60
Infantry
Germany - 103
China - 210

This game has become so intense for me (kudos to BRC) that the first turn of war took over 45 minutes. Looking at the map attached below, I took two cities along the yellow bracket to open up my kingdom. What I found after that was Mao's entire army located in the red circle (or at least 85% of it). Around that city (Tarsus) alone I slaughtered 31 tanks and 18 infantry including four 4-unit armies! The next turn he moved up 15 more tanks and 10 or so more infantry. It's all snow and mountains down there, so he can't move too fast. The next turn I'll take the rest out and he'll be left to his factories.

Post first turn of war stats:
Tanks
Germany - 46
China - 29
Infantry
Germany - 101
China - 171

Also, the Babs, Aztecs, Rome and England all declared war on the Chinese. A favorable two years indeed.

The world according to Germany in 1870AD

BRC · January 8, 2003, 12:27

LF: Nice game going there. It's good to see you have a plan. A little luck never hurts either.

Quote:

I'm probably crazy, but am I wrong to recall that sometimes a palace build with one turn left will have produced enough shields to build ToE immediately? This game the result was 15 turns to ToE and I'm a bit confused as to why so much time was left......

I'm pretty sure that the cost of building your palace is directly influenced by the number of cities you control. I don't know exact numbers, but the more cities you own, the more expensive the palace is to build. You not owning many cities is probably the reason for this occurence.

jshelr · January 8, 2003, 13:49

Thanks, BRC. That makes good sense and I've never run across that tidbit before.

joncnunn · January 8, 2003, 14:27

4 Chinese armies? I wonder if the AI knows how to use a GL to rush a Great Wonder.

Nor Me · January 8, 2003, 14:40

Quote:

Originally posted by joncnunn
4 Chinese armies? I wonder if the AI knows how to use a GL to rush a Great Wonder.

They do. I've seen it. In my game China has 8 armies of course.

Arrian · January 8, 2003, 17:32

I've seen the AI use a leader for a wonder, but they usually do build armies instead.

Nor Me... wow, I haven't rooted for a human comeback this much since Aeson's legendary "So Very Cold." Good luck!

Good reading, fellas. Not my cup 'o tea, though. I hate playing the Germans.

-Arrian