AI dumbness over Right of Passage

sorberec · January 4, 2003, 14:04

I've got several cities forming a line between the main area of Rome and a load of Civ's to the south (my main mass of cities is to the east, this line of cities being the result of a land-grab to secure luxuries). Rome had a couple of cities to the south of my line of cities.

Several of the Civ's to the south have declared war with Rome and they're all marching merrily across my lands without a thought as to asking for ROP (no change there).

However, I offer Rome ROP and they turn me down. Why? They can kick my ass if they put their mind to it, I've never attacked them. Plus, ROP would give them a speed advantage moving through my lands and allow them to defend their outlying cities south of my line. They cannot lose by this deal.

Anyone else think this is dumb?

Vlad Antlerkov · January 4, 2003, 14:26

How large is your territory, compared to Rome's? If you have less territory than Rome, they won't accept a straight-up RoP. If you have more, they'll pay you to accept the RoP.

But yes, the danger posed to its outlying cities should be a larger factor than territory sizes.

sorberec · January 4, 2003, 14:35

My territory is about 60% of Rome's. I did actually pay them to get RoP in order to have a constant stream of units heading to my line of cities (was also trying to outpace Rome but they got a few setllers out faster).

The war between Rome and Babylon has now ended (i think they're still at war with Greece). In the end Rome had 3 cities captured and 1 destroyed. Plus they (and the Greek's and Babylonian's) were piling a hell of a lot of units into that battle.

Of the 4 cities Rome lost, two were inside the main Roman territory - one of them being destroyed. I'm hoping the other two culture flip over to me

bobbo008 · January 4, 2003, 15:40

ROP, for the AI, just seems like an optional, more-speedy method to get to another point on the map...

bongo · January 5, 2003, 19:03

Have you violated any agreements with them lately so that they don't trust you?

Never mind, you can't expect the AI to behave intellingently all the time..

MosesPresley · January 5, 2003, 21:57

The AI has terrible pathfinding in Civ 3.

Harovan · January 6, 2003, 00:16

It's not pathfinding, it's about strength. sorberec is probably a "builder" and has a relatively small military. The AI doesn't fear him, and if he forces them to leave, they just declare war on him as well.

You should build up some military. Check your military advisor. Your military should be at least "average" compared with your intruders, better even "strong". This will stop the border violations. But as long as you're weak, your voice has no weight.

bongo · January 6, 2003, 05:44

The AI can be a real bully when he's stronger than you. It's not fun to be on the recieving end of an AI boot but it sure makes the game more interesting. Check your military advisor, sometimes he is your best friend.

Pyrodrew · January 6, 2003, 06:49

Quote:

Why? They can kick my ass if they put their mind to it

You answered your own question.

To get them out of your territory you should build up your military and/or create a wall of units to act as a barrier so the shortest distance between point A & B is not through your territory.

sorberec · January 6, 2003, 12:55

Well I do tend towards being a builder, as trying to go for early conquest never seems to work for me. I tend to start building my forces up seriously once musketmen become available - before that it's generally 2 defensive units per city, rising to 3 once some city improvements are built

HazieDaVampire · January 6, 2003, 15:42

lol, the AI once kept sending units through my land to get to another AI, it eventualy took over that AI but it kept on sending workers and re-enforcements through. So i built it great big wall of forts along the north and south and now they cant get in my land! lol

sorberec · January 6, 2003, 17:34

Yeah, normally if the terrain is right (i.e. a nice line of hills/mountains along one of my borders) i normally fortify a line of unit across it to stop the AI traipsing across my land. if i have a particulalry small land mass i also fortify units all round my borders as well

Pyrodrew · January 6, 2003, 17:35

Quote:

So i built it great big wall of forts along the north and south and now they cant get in my land!

I found even a wall of foreign workers will get the AI to stop crossing one's territory since the worker is seen as a barrier... same basis as the maze exploit, except this is simply to get the AI to behave.

Keeper of Hell · January 6, 2003, 18:43

Well, the AI doesn't even follow its own rules about only attempting to intimidate those that are weaker than it. I had 150 MAs and about 60 MIs, and the Persians decided to move 2 of their 10 MAs into my territory. When I ordered them to leave, they refused and declared war. Since I was about to declare war on them anyway, it worked out rather nicely, since now they're the aggressors. Less war weariness.

Lung · January 8, 2003, 23:44

You've got it good!

When i contact other civs to either negotiate a ROP agreement or demand them to get out of my territory, i usually find i don't even get those options! The Aztecs are crawling all over my civ, and yet i have no opportunity to tell them to bugger off! This is absurd!

Am i the only one with these problems??

bongo · January 9, 2003, 09:25

You are not alone. There seems to be a limit to how many units an AI can have in your territory before the option to tell him to leave is replaced with 'get out or declare war'. I'd really like to make that choice myself. I would also like to tell someone which I have a ROP with to 'please step aside, your rifleman are sitting on top of a polluted square my workers wants to clean up', something like that.

Willem · January 9, 2003, 09:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Lung
You've got it good!

When i contact other civs to either negotiate a ROP agreement or demand them to get out of my territory, i usually find i don't even get those options! The Aztecs are crawling all over my civ, and yet i have no opportunity to tell them to bugger off! This is absurd!

Am i the only one with these problems??

If you have units crawling all of your empire, it probably means that your military is weak in comparison. If you're strong, they won't come around, since they won't want to risk a war they might lose. Having a stack near your border with them helps as well.

bongo · January 9, 2003, 09:50

The will often declare war even if they are so small that you can roll over them in a few turns

PrinceBimz · January 9, 2003, 10:53

I certainly won't say the AI is dumb over RoP but rather disrespectful and for a reason. I notice in early game the AI moves settlers with an escort (warrior, spearmen, archer, etc.) through my territory at will. I don't like this and this has started many wars. If I do that to them they get pissed but they do it to me at will and sometimes I get pissed too. This AI is sneaky and dirty with it too, they will plant a city right in the middle of your territory on just one area where your territor don't cover. This makes me hot! Most of the time a settler and escort is not too much of a threat and not worth starting a war over but it still angers me.

Now when the AI is at war with another AI and if it sends units through my territory without RoP that means I better keep my mouth shut. Reason being is chances are they can beat the heck out of me and don't give a heck about what I say. They know they can destroy my nation to the ground so they are just daring me to say something so they can kick my butt too. So they figure why sign a RoP to let me go through their territory when they can just move through mine at will and have theirs free? They know I am weaker and can't defeat them so for the AI its a very smart thing to do. I can't just go in there and do a RoP rape to them now because they won't sign a RoP.

Lung · January 9, 2003, 19:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Willem

If you have units crawling all of your empire, it probably means that your military is weak in comparison. If you're strong, they won't come around, since they won't want to risk a war they might lose. Having a stack near your border with them helps as well.

It certainly shouldn't be! When i see my military advisor, he says they don't have any units, even though numerous units repeatedly cross my territory. As for me being weaker, i'd be very surprised, considering how strong my military is, and how small and primitive they are.

However, i will try the intimidatory approach. At the very least, it should prompt them to demand a mutual withdrawal of troops. If they demand a withdrawal without me getting an option to demand the same, i'll be pissed off!

Willem · January 9, 2003, 19:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Lung

It certainly shouldn't be! When i see my military advisor, he says they don't have any units, even though numerous units repeatedly cross my territory. As for me being weaker, i'd be very surprised, considering how strong my military is, and how small and primitive they are.

However, i will try the intimidatory approach. At the very least, it should prompt them to demand a mutual withdrawal of troops. If they demand a withdrawal without me getting an option to demand the same, i'll be pissed off!

You might also try creating a hidden nationality unit or two. That way you can destroy any stragglers without actually going to war. Having a few of those near borders seems to do a very nice job of scaring them away as well. I seldom get Settlers in the area when they're around.

bobbo008 · January 9, 2003, 20:30

"You might also try creating a hidden nationality unit or two. That way you can destroy any stragglers without actually going to war. Having a few of those near borders seems to do a very nice job of scaring them away as well. I seldom get Settlers in the area when they're around."

you mean creating them in the editor or downloading them? there should be land privateer-type units. basically mercenaries... like Hungarian Hussars, which were still "around" during the Korean War and have been since the Middle Ages (then fast, lightly-armored, brightly-colored horsemen)

Willem · January 9, 2003, 20:59

Quote:

Originally posted by bobbo008
"You might also try creating a hidden nationality unit or two. That way you can destroy any stragglers without actually going to war. Having a few of those near borders seems to do a very nice job of scaring them away as well. I seldom get Settlers in the area when they're around."

you mean creating them in the editor or downloading them? there should be land privateer-type units. basically mercenaries... like Hungarian Hussars, which were still "around" during the Korean War and have been since the Middle Ages (then fast, lightly-armored, brightly-colored horsemen)

Well both actually. I downloaded the graphics, but had to create them in the editor. I have several of them in fact, for different time periods. I like having them in the game, they can throw in a nice twist, especially since the AI sometimes likes to use them too.

bobbo008 · January 9, 2003, 21:31

too bad they didn't put in units like that, the privateers feel so limited sometimes, especially without bombardment... its not like in reality you couldn't upgrade the ships...