OFFICIAL : SE value

Pandemoniak · January 6, 2003, 09:42

Choices are : Survival
Knowledge : +2 Research, +1 Efficiency, -2 Probe
Wealth : +1 Economy, +1 Industry, -2 Morale
Abstain.

Only a 50%+ vote can change the SE.

Pandemoniak · January 6, 2003, 09:44

The poll will last three days.

Drogue · January 6, 2003, 10:54

Nice to have some decent SE polls

And we might finally get to knowledge...

Knowledge all the way

Pandemoniak · January 6, 2003, 11:32

Quote:

And we might finally get to knowledge...

I will carry the will of the people.

Voltaire · January 6, 2003, 16:08

WHAT??? We haven’t switched to knowledge yet? After repeated polls on the matter???

Drogue · January 6, 2003, 16:41

Yes, that was my reaction. Archaic didn't want to order it because we hadn't had a poll in his term, yet he wanted more debate before he started a poll. I'm thankful we now have a director who polls more. Nice job so far Pande

Voltaire · January 6, 2003, 16:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Drogue
Yes, that was my reaction. Archaic didn't want to order it because we hadn't had a poll in his term, yet he wanted more debate before he started a poll. I'm thankful we now have a director who polls more. Nice job so far Pande

I knew there was some controversy about this before, when the impeachment of Archaic was being discussed. I would think Archaic was simply trying to avoid changing to Knowledge, when there was obviously so much support for it, in an attempt to push his own value of Wealth.

Method · January 6, 2003, 18:26

knowledge of course. this is the third time

Archaic · January 7, 2003, 03:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Voltaire

I knew there was some controversy about this before, when the impeachment of Archaic was being discussed. I would think Archaic was simply trying to avoid changing to Knowledge, when there was obviously so much support for it, in an attempt to push his own value of Wealth.

No, I just wanted a debate on the issue, because the situation had changed so much since the original discussions. ATM, with Knowledge/Wealth and the situation at the moment, IMO we have to ask which is more important. +1 Industry, or a tech rate of 1 turn better with perhaps the potential for more drone control thanks to Efficiency, and the better Morale. Really, it depends on how much we intend to expand and/or go to war in this term.

Pandemoniak · January 7, 2003, 05:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Archaic
IMO we have to ask which is more important. +1 Industry, or a tech rate of 1 turn better with perhaps the potential for more drone control thanks to Efficiency, and the better Morale.

2 or 3 turns better. ( 11 instead of 14 for a tech ; next tech in 7 turns instead of 9 turns)

Archaic · January 7, 2003, 06:16

FM / Wealth :
85 EC / 6 turns (8 turns) / 148 research

FM / Knowledge :
82 EC / 5 turns ( 7 turns) / 172 research, tech 20ù cheaper

Perhaps you actually consider Planned/Wealth or Planned/Knowledge valid options in times other than those where we need pop-booms. I don't. I've already stated why, so I won't repeat myself. Suffice to say....you're just inflexible Pan, not to mention ill equiped to understand socio-economic theory.

Pandemoniak · January 7, 2003, 06:28

I'm indeed inflexible, I will, unlike you, do my job of Director and carry the results of the polls, that will be organised with a total impartiality.

Archaic · January 7, 2003, 06:37

Which is why you failed to put up all the info about the various settings before I badgered you into it and people have voted, in order to promote your Marxist agenda?

Pandemoniak · January 7, 2003, 06:48

lol.

No, this is why and what I've been elected for.

Archaic · January 7, 2003, 07:52

To promote your Marxist agenda? Or to not provide all the facts when you first post your polls?

Drogue · January 7, 2003, 07:56

Archaic, I have managed to restrain from going on about your failings as DSE, the least would expect is for you to stop badgering Pande, who has provided all the information required (the SE effects of each choice). If people really want to see what the effect of each will be on exact researc figures, and drone riots, GAs etc they can easily look themselves. Indeed in the other poll, he gave the effects for Knowledge and Wealth combined with FM and Planned. He has been fair in his first posts, so your

Quote:

in order to promote your Marxist agenda

is complete bullshit. Stop trying to blame why people don't want FM/Wealth of bias or incomplete information (which I have already rebutted, you cannot find out about drone riots without playing ahead and ending the turn) and accept that people do not want it at the moment.

Archaic · January 7, 2003, 09:13

I'm well aware of what happened during my time as DSE. Perhaps you forget that my internet was rather limited during that time, hmmmm? He *DIDN'T* provide all the effects of each choice initially, and if you aren't already aware, some people either don't have the time to be constantly checking the save game, or can't even load it on their computers to start with.

"you cannot find out about drone riots without playing ahead and ending the turn"
Bullshit. The Base Operations Status Screen clearly shows it.

Drogue · January 7, 2003, 09:57

Ok, so you can see about drone riots. Why should he post them. This is a direct comparison between FM and Planned, or Knowledge and Wealth, therefore why should he include changes in Psych spending to it? Or he could add 10 or 20% psych to Planned and show it. There are many different combinations of psych spending and SE settings, should he include them all, so that we're flooded with information? No, of course not, but where do you draw the line. I think he provided enough information in the pol thread, and then went beyond the call of duty to show extra information in a different thread about SE settings. If you have more facts you wish to use to show that FM is good, then by all means post them yourself. As DSE, Pande posted more information than the constitution declares he must, and was unbiased when quoting it. He even added the 20% psych to FM to show the effect that would have, as you suggested. He could just give us the direct SE effects and let us poll that way if he felt like it.

And you may have had a shaky connection, yet your decision not to post a Knowledge poll, or start a discussion aboutn it, while still posting 2 FM polls, shows obvious bias to me, and did not sit well with many people. So please, stop trying to make excuses and argue that it is because of Pande's agenda that FM isn't chosen. There was far more evidence of bias in your decisions as DSE than there are in Pande's.

Archaic · January 7, 2003, 10:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Drogue
Ok, so you can see about drone riots. Why should he post them. This is a direct comparison between FM and Planned, or Knowledge and Wealth, therefore why should he include changes in Psych spending to it? Or he could add 10 or 20% psych to Planned and show it. There are many different combinations of psych spending and SE settings, should he include them all, so that we're flooded with information? No, of course not, but where do you draw the line. I think he provided enough information in the pol thread, and then went beyond the call of duty to show extra information in a different thread about SE settings. If you have more facts you wish to use to show that FM is good, then by all means post them yourself. As DSE, Pande posted more information than the constitution declares he must, and was unbiased when quoting it. He even added the 20% psych to FM to show the effect that would have, as you suggested. He could just give us the direct SE effects and let us poll that way if he felt like it.

No one has tried to promote FM without 20% Psych. He was giving a choice to people between FM without any psych spending (Something NO ONE WANTS) and Planned. Comparing something you want to something even your loudest opponents don't want. Hmmmmmm......

Quote:

Originally posted by Drogue
And you may have had a shaky connection, yet your decision not to post a Knowledge poll, or start a discussion aboutn it, while still posting 2 FM polls, shows obvious bias to me, and did not sit well with many people. So please, stop trying to make excuses and argue that it is because of Pande's agenda that FM isn't chosen. There was far more evidence of bias in your decisions as DSE than there are in Pande's.

1) There was no recent discussion about Knowledge
2) You or anyone else was free to post a discussion at any time. I don't have to prod you.
3) The first FM poll was invalidated because of the change in the consitution, which is the only reason I posted a 2nd.

Pandemoniak · January 7, 2003, 10:20

Archaic, if you're so disgruntled with my work as a DoSE, why dont you contact the court to start an impeachment process ?

Drogue · January 7, 2003, 11:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Archaic
No one has tried to promote FM without 20% Psych. He was giving a choice to people between FM without any psych spending (Something NO ONE WANTS) and Planned. Comparing something you want to something even your loudest opponents don't want. Hmmmmmm......

Yes, but comparing like with like. I understand that it was good that he did show it with 20% psych, and I don't knock him for that at all, but he needn't go any further. And to say nobody wants it at any different psych level? Maybe not vocally, but I doubt nobody does.

Quote:

Originally posted by Archaic
1) There was no recent discussion about Knowledge
2) You or anyone else was free to post a discussion at any time. I don't have to prod you.
3) The first FM poll was invalidated because of the change in the consitution, which is the only reason I posted a 2nd.

Yes, but then you can start a poll to start discussion, an unofficial poll etc. And there was discussion, there were many calls to change, without reprise. That should have told you something. It was your duty as DSE to carry out the will of the people, and to find the will of the people. We didn't start a poll because we had already discussed and decided upon our views. This is further evidenced by looking at this thread, where even during the poll, nobody feels the need to discuss the merits of the options, as we have already all decided. I'm aware of the reasons why there were two FM polls, but having time for 2 polls for something and none for anything else, I think that shows where your priorities lie.

Micha · January 7, 2003, 17:11

I voted knowledge. Although it is obvious to chose that option, just have a look at the other one: -2 morale at wealth! Since we won´t have PLANNED forever, both GREEN and FM generate bad fighting values. The -2 morale will make our soldiers shoot with paperballs...

Drogue · January 7, 2003, 18:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Micha
The -2 morale will make our soldiers shoot with paperballs...

That sounds like a new non-lethal weapon.

MrWhereItsAt · January 7, 2003, 19:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Micha
I voted knowledge. Although it is obvious to chose that option, just have a look at the other one: -2 morale at wealth! Since we won´t have PLANNED forever, both GREEN and FM generate bad fighting values. The -2 morale will make our soldiers shoot with paperballs...

The morale is something that's staying my hand in this poll. Are we likely to be attacked or need to attack anyone anytime soon? If not then we don't need morale. If we are atttacked, we hold an emergency poll to change, but if we don't need it, why maximise it at the expense of more good stuff like Econ?

Method · January 7, 2003, 19:52

Quote:

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
Are we likely to be attacked or need to attack anyone anytime soon?

yes. yang

Quote:

why maximise it at the expense of more good stuff like Econ?

+1 econ is pretty useless really. +1 energy per base. whoop de doo

Drogue · January 7, 2003, 19:56

I concur on both with TKG. May he long reign over us (and did I mention that I needed a payrise

)

Archaic · January 7, 2003, 23:01

Quote:

Originally posted by TKG

yes. yang

And we can't do this with a Probe Team assult under FM why?

Quote:

Originally posted by TKG
+1 econ is pretty useless really. +1 energy per base. whoop de doo

+3 or +4 Econ w/ FM+Wealth(+GA) however....

Drogue · January 8, 2003, 05:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Archaic
And we can't do this with a Probe Team assult under FM why?

Because he's going to attack us, we need some units in the field to help defend, and gove us the ability to strike back when it's needed. We need the ability to have military units out of bases.

Quote:

Originally posted by Archaic
+3 or +4 Econ w/ FM+Wealth(+GA) however....

Yes, but that doesn't look like happening, looking at the FM poll. And I never get much extra effect from going from +2 to +3 or +4. +2 Econ is good, but if we went to FM as you said, we wouldn't need the extra +1 from Wealth. I'd rather get the research and efficiency bonus from Knowledge. If we could get GA easily, Wealth looks pretty good, but that isn't the case ATM.

MrWhereItsAt · January 8, 2003, 06:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Drogue

Because he's going to attack us, we need some units in the field to help defend, and gove us the ability to strike back when it's needed. We need the ability to have military units out of bases.

Do we actually have anything in danger, or is there just the possibility that a distant Yang could get angry at us? Remember, we could always hold an emergency poll and change to something more Morale-favouring at the drop of a hat if we need to.

Quote:

+2 Econ is good, but if we went to FM as you said, we wouldn't need the extra +1 from Wealth. I'd rather get the research and efficiency bonus from Knowledge. If we could get GA easily, Wealth looks pretty good, but that isn't the case ATM.

Fair enough, but this argument only applies if we were going to FM, which we, for some reason, aren't.

Method · January 8, 2003, 17:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Archaic
And we can't do this with a Probe Team assult under FM why?

we can. who said anything about FM?

Quote:

+3 or +4 Econ w/ FM+Wealth(+GA) however....

/me shrugs