Official : Economics

Pandemoniak · January 6, 2003, 09:45

Options are :

Simple
Planned +1 Industry / +2 Growth / -2 Efficiency
+1 industry : mineral costs -10%
+2 growth : +20% faster growth (at +6, this is popbooming, meaning each base with a Children's Creches)
Free Market +2 Economy / -5 Police / -3 Planet
+2Eco : +1 energy per square and per base
-5 police : no police units can be used, 2 drones per military unit out of borders
-3 planet : higher ecodamage, no production on fungus.

Abstain

A 50%+ vote is needed to change the SE.

This poll will last three days.

Hercules · January 6, 2003, 10:07

Still with planned.

Drogue · January 6, 2003, 10:57

Likewise

What we need right now is...

Spoiler:

Pandemoniak · January 6, 2003, 11:30

Bump-voted

Voltaire · January 6, 2003, 16:10

Planned now, Green latter.

lucky22 · January 6, 2003, 18:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Drogue
Likewise

What we need right now is...
pop-boom

Voted planned as well, but we need to get a handle on our current population first. What we need right now is...

Spoiler:

Method · January 6, 2003, 18:27

Spoiler:

why isn't green up there? do we not have the tech yet?

Drogue · January 7, 2003, 05:31

Don't think we do. Does Deirdre have it for trade? If not I think it's high on our list to research.

Pandemoniak · January 7, 2003, 05:56

We dont have it yet, we'll discover Green in 9 turns with wealth, 7 turns with knowledge or FM knowledge and 5 turns with FM knowledge.
Only Zakharov has Centauri Empathy at the moment.

New poll will be made as soon as we discover Green.

MrWhereItsAt · January 7, 2003, 09:31

FM - let's get enough cash to buy up all we need and expand dramatically, then a change to Planned for the popboom.

Let's go people - FM - give it a try

Micha · January 7, 2003, 17:04

ha! As good advise doesn´t work with you FM-junkies, I voted for FM! Switch, and watch what you´ve done! The mindworms will overrun each city, one by another, except these that disbanded themselves during drone riots!

Ok, perhaps I exxagerated that a bit...
I think we can have a SHORT time of cash and science boom under FM, and then switch immediatly to GREEN. It should have highest priority!
Nevertheless I don´t like FM and would go for planned in RPG. Unfortunately the gave doesn´t represent an ideal communism system so INGAME FM is good for a short time.

Method · January 7, 2003, 17:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Micha
ha! As good advise doesn´t work with you FM-junkies, I voted for FM! Switch, and watch what you´ve done! The mindworms will overrun each city, one by another, except these that disbanded themselves during drone riots!

uhm, have you ever actually played under FM?

MrWhereItsAt · January 7, 2003, 19:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Micha
ha! As good advise doesn´t work with you FM-junkies, I voted for FM! Switch, and watch what you´ve done! The mindworms will overrun each city, one by another, except these that disbanded themselves during drone riots!

Ok, perhaps I exxagerated that a bit...
I think we can have a SHORT time of cash and science boom under FM, and then switch immediatly to GREEN. It should have highest priority!
Nevertheless I don´t like FM and would go for planned in RPG. Unfortunately the gave doesn´t represent an ideal communism system so INGAME FM is good for a short time.

Since when was I a FM "junkie"? I just want to see what happens, and have been more than convinced of its value by arguments such as Archaic's in the past. Although I have not subscribed to some of his ideas about this game, I am beginning to believe there is actually some unthinking anti-FM stance among many here, for some reason.

Give it a try, we can always hold an emergency poll to change out if we are in trouble, and I really think, if properly managed, FM could be a tremendous boon to us. If we wait too long into the game however, the option is lost from the sheer amount of riots/ecol damage we may do.

Pandemoniak · January 8, 2003, 13:19

Results : stay Planned.

Method · January 8, 2003, 17:53

uhg. must...recruit...more...people...(ones who like market

)

Lemmy · January 8, 2003, 18:21

It seems that support for FM is rising, maybe in 2 or 3 weeks the majority will be for FM.

MrWhereItsAt · January 8, 2003, 18:46

Never mind that then may be too late to use it effectively. The bigger our bases get, the more we will have to worry about ecol damage and drones under FM. It may still be viable, but please everyone - let's try the FM thing whilst our window of opportunity is still open!

Archaic · January 8, 2003, 21:10

The window of opportunity will always be open so long as we're willing to go 20% Psych, which is what we're advocating anyway. But that doesn't mean we should keep holding off on switching so we can reap the benifits sooner.

GeneralTacticus · January 9, 2003, 07:25

FM, of course.

Main_Brain · January 9, 2003, 13:35

but in two weeks we will have Green...at least I hope so, and I guess we alllll like green?

GeneralTacticus · January 9, 2003, 19:36

Quite bluntly: No. We don't all like Green.

Archaic · January 9, 2003, 23:17

Quote:

Originally posted by Main_Brain
but in two weeks we will have Green...at least I hope so, and I guess we alllll like green?

-2 Growth would hurt us more than the +2 Efficiency could possibily gain us at this point. As GT has already well put it.....No. We don't all like Green.

Drogue · January 10, 2003, 06:32

Quote:

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Quite bluntly: No. We don't all like Green.

But many (most?) people seem to

Archaic · January 10, 2003, 10:03

Mainly because of
a) Intollerance towards FM
or
b) Ignorance

I love it too how people try to justify all these RP arguements about Green with the nature stuff, freely overlooking the loss of civil rights entailed by anything less than a free market.

Drogue · January 10, 2003, 11:15

Loss of civil rights? I still don't buy into that. Maybe in pure planned, which is not what we want. To me, Green=FM with ecological ethos and public services, ie. a Mixed economy. Besides, ever heard of Libertarian Socialism? Relatively widely believed here.

And branding all that disagree with you ignorant is stupid. I don't acept your argument, just as you don't acc ept mine. So stop the insulting bullshit and recognise that some people value things more than FM, like the environment, worker rights etc. It doesn't make them ignorant, it means they have different aims and ideals to you. If you don't see that, then that's ignorance

Archaic · January 10, 2003, 23:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Drogue
Loss of civil rights? I still don't buy into that. Maybe in pure planned, which is not what we want.

Which is why you resist a change out of the current Pure Planned to a FM 20% Psych w/ all its lovely civil rights?

Quote:

Originally posted by Drogue
To me, Green=FM with ecological ethos and public services, ie. a Mixed economy. Besides, ever heard of Libertarian Socialism? Relatively widely believed here.

FM w/ 20% psych = FM w/ Public Services and Welfare.

Stop making moral decisions for the citizens. Noit everyone supports your viewpoint, and there are valid counterarguements to it, so why should everyone be forced under your yoke of government regulation and oppression?

Quote:

Originally posted by Drogue
And branding all that disagree with you ignorant is stupid. I don't acept your argument, just as you don't acc ept mine. So stop the insulting bullshit and recognise that some people value things more than FM, like the environment, worker rights etc. It doesn't make them ignorant, it means they have different aims and ideals to you. If you don't see that, then that's ignorance

You can value the environment under FM by exercising your right to choose what you buy.
FM has workers rights too, and a lot more of them than Planned does. Unions have massive bargaining power with their employers.

I brand you as ignorant because you *are*. You and Pan (and others) have made many assumptions about both the Free Market and Socialist markets which are simply not true, all in the name of promoting your viewpoint. That you continue to hold onto these viewpoints even after the flaws in your preception of them have been corrected is *WILLFUL IGNORANCE*.

As for not accepting arguements.....I don't accept yours because yours is flawed. You don't accept my arguement because you just don't like me, my style, or what I'm arguing about. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Now here's a nice RP arguement for you. You keep whinging about the environment.......but did you consider that thanks to the miracle of terraforming, it doesn't matter if we "ruin" the environment, because we can take the pollutants and turn them into useful materials that will end up helping the environment anyway? I don't know the exact science behind it, go ask the terraforming crews, but we're basically transmuting pollutants and useless materials into plants here. And considering there's no native life on this biosphere except for the ravenous worms, we don't even have to worry about harming the eco system when we replace "Planet Plants" with far better for us "Earth Plants".

GeneralTacticus · January 10, 2003, 23:52

Not to mention that we're currently developing and implementing things which allow us to produce more at less environmental cost (Tree Farms, and fairly soon Hybrid Forests).

Archaic · January 11, 2003, 01:15

Which in RP terms means we're building those Boreholes, etc w/ a combination of native and earth constructs in such a way that it doesn't disturb the environment. The only thing we'd have to worry about is our sheer production levels polluting....and with FM, we'll be able to increase those pollution caps easier, while under Green.......say hello to massive eco damage in the long term.

Pandemoniak · January 11, 2003, 08:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Archaic
Which in RP terms means we're building those Boreholes, etc w/ a combination of native and earth constructs in such a way that it doesn't disturb the environment. The only thing we'd have to worry about is our sheer production levels polluting....and with FM, we'll be able to increase those pollution caps easier, while under Green.......say hello to massive eco damage in the long term.

Ie you build preservation parks next to the garbage deposits. And saying "FM will make more ED then less ED at long term, while Green will make less ED then more ED at long term" is... somewhat illogical to me. Anyway, Im not gonna argue. I'll let the people vote :

"The people knows everything"
Mikhael Gorbatchev, AD. 1991
Datalinks

Archaic · January 11, 2003, 09:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Pandemoniak
Ie you build preservation parks next to the garbage deposits.

Don't put words in my mouth.
Actually, we wouldn't have garbae deposits. We haven't ever had them. Did you forget about the Recycling Tanks? Amazing what we can recycle thesedays. Literally everything.

Quote:

Originally posted by Pandemoniak
And saying "FM will make more ED then less ED at long term, while Green will make less ED then more ED at long term" is... somewhat illogical to me.

It's not illogical, mearly counter-intuitive. We've already proven it's true, so counter-intuitive or not, you don't have a leg to stand on.

Quote:

Originally posted by Pandemoniak
Anyway, Im not gonna argue. I'll let the people vote :

"The people knows everything"
Mikhael Gorbatchev, AD. 1991
Datalinks

Unfortunatly, not all the people know everything. That's because not everyone is equal.