WAR ??????????????? What IS it good for?

[tyler666]

ya see i got SMAC thats right just plain old SMAC and I really like expanding but I ussaly dont bulid a massive army to expand i only go to war after 2150 any suggestions commets ????????


Tyler Messer
"FOR I AM A NOOB"
[This message has been edited by tyler666 (edited December 08, 2000).]

[Wiglaf]

In my book building an army is the only way to expand. If you find a weak faction with an army you're in buisness. If you find one without an army you'll have to pay regular 'fines' until they decide to destroy you. Armies are the only way to expand if you ask me because of the high risk of running into someone like Santiago or Yang.

[Qualicide]

war! huh! what is it good for?(absolutly nothing!)

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Well, you guys want a PS2? heh heh :strokes console lovingly:

[Wiglaf]

You've got a PS2? How? . Anyway, you're gonna go to war if you like it or not, so you might as well go for it early.

[Velociryx]

I agree that warfare is a terriffic means of expansion, but I still don't generally put myself on much of a war footing til I get Clean Reactors....I'm a huge fan of FM, and don't like to shy away from the money unless I see an entire continent of puny bases that are just ripe for the picking....besides, I figure I can let the AI build lots of bases for me, spend their time and resources building all those 'spensive facilities, and when I've got my Empire just the way I want it, I'll mosey on over and take theirs, then show them how to terraform and such....

If I get attacked by some faction prior to having my Empire just the way I like it, I'll try various means to avoid a general war, but if they push it, or demand too much in the way of tech or cash, I'll rely on my prototypes, on-the-fly-upgraded scouts, probes, and armored formers and crawlers to take the attackers out, generally without much of an interruption to my Empire Building (sometimes temporarily pulling 1-3 bases off of my usual build cycle to crank out a few extra troops). But, when I DO decide to go to war, thanks to the relentless focus on tech and infrastructure, I can generally count on 3-4 generations of weapons and armor lead, and a 1-2 reactor type advantage, so the fights aren't very challenging, to say the least....when the best defense they can mount is fission/fusion silksteel, and I've got fusion/whatever-that-next-one-is Tachyon/Shard, it doesn't take too long to plow through their bases....

-=Vel=-

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Early warfare (the gamble)

Warfare pre 2150 has a tremendous upside and a significant downside.

The upside is forcing a submissive. A submissive can if used properly aid you throughout the game in terms of ongoing highest trade level (pact mate) and should be able to provide you at least 3-5 techs/submissive at a minimum during the course of your game. (Most likely a tech every 10 -20 turns if you keep him gifted with your latest technology)

Thats huge and can't be overlooked and the sooner you get a submissive the sooner you can get him working for you.

The downside of course is a failed or stalled offensive. Unless you've managed a huge free captured worm army (which I find a problem to ever get for some reason even playing Cha Dawn) then most likely you'll need impact speeders to make a decent run to capture enough bases at a rate that the AI wil offer a submission. Sure you can try with laser tech and/or infantry but more often than not your conquest is too slow.

That being said unless you've got a faction already primed (say like the cyborgs) for this tech run then morelikely you'll need to discover teh following techs

Formers (to at least provide some minerals for unit builds)
Laser tech
Mobility
Net nodes
Impact weapons

Thats 5 techs and for an average faction without research bonuses and or one of those techs being a freebie you can normally figure on about 7-8 turns/tech depending on world size, good energy squares, no freebies from pods, or via trade.

That takes you out to almost 2135-2140 before you have the requisite techs to pull off the early run (again you may have chosen a good faction for this or have traded with the AI or possibly popped a nice pod). Regardless you then need to prototype and build yourself 4-5 units with more bein in the build Q's at a minimum to consider your conquest.

Look what you've done in the meantime tho'. You've built up your techbase using those techs that provide the least benefit to infrastructure and defense and those early techs are the least costly so from there on out your going to be researching techs that will come every 12+ turns as an estimate.

So lets just say that your conquest against Morgan AI was working wonderfully, but then that Morgan AI all of a sudden used a probe team to buy your newly captured base back and in the process subverted those 4-5 impact speeders which were temporaily healing up. Woah,look how the tables have turned. Now at least 4 impact speeders will be heading right back at you and you have essentially no defensive techs, not even synth metal. Ouch!! (and believe me I've done it enough times to myself.) No probe teams to defend yourself nada. The only hope is you can churnout impact speeders quickly, but talk about a set back and a delay.

So again I say early warfare looks real attractive but it is a gamble. If your going to play that way at least stack the odds in your favor and take a faction that has freebie techs that are in line with what you need or a research faction who can research fast enough to get those requisite techs and still move onto builder techs in a reasonable amount of time.

[tyler666]

THX YHALL!!!!!!! im currently playing w/ gaia and found that war is good for conquering a conitent and sense in the game im playin im planet gov. and the undisputed plantary superpower after extermanating the hive im now going to backstab my allies the belivers and take their pitful 3 bases/cites i mean they sux its the year 2281 for crist sakes hahahahaha

oh ya 1 thing these SMACX new factions well i dont have SMACX so i dont need to hear about them please thanks

[Sikander]

Ogie,

I quite agree with you. I have had somewhat better luck with worms, though only a couple of times playing the Gaians did I manage to get myself an early game slave. The first time it was the Yanger, and boy was I amused. Unfortunately, we were both on a smallish continent, and I had neither the skill nor the room to let him really help me out.

I agree that it is better to follow your own growth pattern, and put off offensive action until later when you are not the beneficiary of the worm army. In the example you gave, it would have been better to have been Morgan, as you have been researching techs which will keep you ahead of your enemy, and by probing him you get the benefit of all of his research into weapons.

[mark13]

I think the main reason capturing worms is difficult is becuase you need at least one full movement point to attempt it. I didn't know until a couple of weeks ago, and my capture rate since then has rocketed.

[Drago Sinio]

I like to start out very peaceful, paying for the privelige as needed. I research for tree farms first. Then when I have tree farms up and running, and my production beefed up with crawlers, I switch to researching military techs. I like to build bioenhancement centers in every base, and then crank out missile rovers, and scout/defensive rovers by the ton. (I always build a command center in each base, too. This produces commando troops, which you can upgrade to elite in battle, or at a monolith. High tech weapons, high morale and the extra elite movement point makes for a NASTY, FAST army with the University faction.)

I also build interceptor needlejets, for scouts, cover, and to bomb the enemy sensor arrays. I try to use the defensive rovers and the jets to block the enemy reinforcments from getting to the target base, while attacking the target with the missile rovers en masse.

This usually makes for a fast, blitzkrieg type war. Then I can get back to peaceful research, having gained a huge amount of territory to build up, terraform, tree farm etc. Then I build Hybrid forests and fusion labs everywhere, and that usually puts me in the lead for good.
[This message has been edited by Drago Sinio (edited December 09, 2000).]

[Drago Sinio]

Yes, good idea, that is an excellent way to get a great army pronto when you have the cash.

But at the point in the game I am talking about here, I am not in free market, so the cash can be too tight for that. If a monolith is available for a free morale upgrade, I would rather save the cash for rush-rebuilding the territory I take. I dont often build expensive units anyway, so they dont take too long to produce. I rarely build anything with a special ability, other than just a few artillery units. ( or clean reactor when available).

I find a combination of elite best weapon no armor rovers, and elite no weapon best armor rovers are best to take and hold ground very quickly early in the game, which is what I want. The extra movement point and high morale of the elite "attack" rovers make up for the lack of a special ability in my opinion.

For later in the game though building plain "trained" choppers and upgrading is be a VERY good idea since you cant use a monolith to upgrade those and by that time you have a stronger economy.

[Sikander]

quote: Originally posted by Drago Sinio on 12-09-2000 11:27 AM I like to build bioenhancement centers in every base, and then crank out missile rovers, and scout/defensive rovers by the ton. (I always build a command center in each base, too. This produces commando troops, which you can upgrade to elite in battle, or at a monolith. High tech weapons, high morale and the extra elite movement point makes for a NASTY, FAST army with the University faction.) [This message has been edited by Drago Sinio (edited December 09, 2000).]

Drago,

Have you tried building vanila (1-1-X trained) troops with the high morale special ability? They start out elite. I just build these in one turn, then upgrade them individually (that way they stay elite). This saves me the trouble of moving them to a monolith, and allows a very high rate of production (1 per turn per base).

[Gothar]

Personnaly I don't usually go to war until clean reactors. However if i am on a continent with yang, santiago or the aliens as neighbours I set all my outlying bases to making scout patrols or the best unit they can make. While the bases on the inside or furthest away work on the early game sp's. This is usually very early in the game before my se settings effects my ability to go to war. If i haven't defeated my neighbour by the time i get fm and democracy I know i'm in for a rough time off it.

As for mind worms when I was playing the ultimate builders challenge with Cha Dawn I was capturing mindworms at about one in every three I came accros. I wasn't using special troups either just a scout patrol moving up and down the fungus .

[mark13]

Going to war early can, in my experience, be very profitable - although it can be a big risk. Yang can be a pain in the early game, as his Perimeter Defenses protect him - which makes him doubly difficult to attack. For the early game (until D:AP) I try to steer clear of him, as destroying him is more trouble than it's worth, IMO.

That trained scout patrol thing is a great idea - although it will cost a lot of credits, you will certainly fget your money's worth! I can confess to never having tried this before although I did something pretty similar with drop units upgraded to marines to attack seabases.

One question about morale - if a unit starts as elite, will a monolith take it to elite(+)? I have seen a unit upgraded to elite(+) several times, although whether that is just the Spartan morale bonus, I don't know.

[Qualicide]

SMACed- i was that idiot on ebay that bought one for $15,000

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Well, you guys want a PS2? heh heh :strokes console lovingly:

[Wiglaf]

$15,000? Where? [breaks out checkbook]

[WhiteElephants]

Mark

I believe that the Elite(+) unit you are refering to was probably given that status through a children's creche though I could be wrong. That's typically how I get units with odd morale ratings like that, but perhaps it can also be done through the SE choices? If you haven't already read the "enlightening" arguement between Marione and AdamSmith about Children's Creches feel free to peruse the posts for it. It was rather amusing.

[Sikander]

quote: Originally posted by mark13 on 12-10-2000 07:04 AM That trained scout patrol thing is a great idea - although it will cost a lot of credits, you will certainly fget your money's worth! I can confess to never having tried this before although I did something pretty similar with drop units upgraded to marines to attack seabases.

Mark13,

By the time I do this the cost is negligible, and well worth freeing my build queue a turn or more sooner. If you are poor, or your units very expensive you can split the difference to some extent by building a trained unit that has some of the same attributes as the unit that you want to end up with. This will lower the build cost to some extent. Hell, if you don't have any cash, simply build the unit you want and give it high morale (assuming what you want doesn't require both special ability slots). One caveat in regards to wealth, is do not build your military while running wealth if you can at all help it. Those sucky morale negatives will stay with the unit it's whole life. I avoid building military units until I switch to knowledge. If I must build, I like to build armored probe teams, or units which will be recycled and replaced later.