Some questions about planet busters

[Skanderbeg]

I have some questions about planet busters. Perhaps someone has experiences about that:

a) Under what circumstances the AI will begin to produce planet busters? It's seems to me that the AI will begin to produce when a AI faction is not leading in power graph to threaten the leading faction, but I don't know if I am right.

b) Under what circumstances the AI will use them? Of course, if the AI faction is attacked by busters, but will the AI do the first strike?

c) What aims will the the AI take for their planet busters? My experience is that the AI will first buster
a base of strategic relevance and then attack bases with secret projects.

another question: If the AI produces planet busters (it is the with secret projetcts) and You attack this base with missiles until the last defender dies, the AI will switch the production to a new defender instead of (what would a human player do) moving a defender from another base. Attacking a base with missiles in this way, has this the smell of cheating, because it is a use of a weakness of the AI?

Greetings Skanderbeg

[Aredhran]

All you need is a missile-loving faction (i.e. Yang), give it orbital spaceflight and watch the missiles and busters fly. I have never seen the AI actually break a treaty with a buster, but Yang often sends a PB after a vendetta has been declared (even by him). That is, if I let him build them

Military strategic value plays no role in which base gets busted. Usually any large base with projects becomes a watery crater.

In a sense, it is taking advantage of the AI's behavior, but then again, the AI is also carrying over the mineral production, and switching production without the 50% penalty, so...

Aredhran

[Misotu]

I don't usually play a momentum-style game, so my experience is pretty limited. Aredhran, in AIR3 Yang used a buster on a tiny base of mine (just captured from Yang). It contained 3 or 4 military units, no SPs and only a perimeter in terms of facilities.

It was a valuable base though, because it was the launching pad from which I would have taken 8 or 9 Hive bases in the next 3 or 4 turns. There were other, much bigger and better-developed cities within range of that buster.

So although I'd agree that the AI seems to prefer to hit large cities with SPs, I have seen it behave otherwise.

On the other hand, it's only one example

[Garth Vader]

In my experience the AI will start a buster when they get spaceflight, any faction.

I have only been busted once, in one of my first games. I was in bad shape and getting beat on by everybody so I started busting everything in sight. I got hit in retaliation.

[Aredhran]

Misotu, you may be right.

However, the AI puts a very high priority on taking back a base that you have captured, and it is just dumb enough to nuke its former base to prevent you from keeping it.

Just another CHF .02

[RedFred]

I've noticed that the AI will often PB bases that happen to have the most military units in them.

Odd that the PB'ing AI faction doesn't get sanctioned if your ODPs or Flechette thingy prevents the PB from taking a bite out of your territory.

[Enigma]

I actually witnessed AI Morgan and AI Yang, both fairly built up (Yang was of course way ahead of Morgan on the power charts) have a small scale nuclear war! Maybe year 2320, thinker difficulty, I was Lal, this was one of my earliest games. I am pacted or treatied with Morgan and Yang is behind me technologically, although he has essentially beelined to advanced spaceflight and has weapons parity. Yang launches a nuke, Morgan launches a nuke in retaliation! I think Yang was particularly space loving that game, because he tried to build a few space hydroponics labs too.

I think that if the AI has a preference for BUILD (like Yang, Morgan, or Domai) then it is more likely to build a PB, and if it is more aggressive it is obviously more likely to use it. Unfortunatly the nuclear fun stopped there, no more PBs were built or used by either side.

[Zonk]

My experience has been that the AI will be much more likely to PB your base if it is one you have captured from that faction. It's even more likely if you have a military buildup in it within striking distance of another base. I would think that the AI uses some formula that would take into account sanctions and economic loss.

On another thread I discussed ecodamage after gassing Miriam repeatedly. This was the game where she had PB capability and was vigorously using it. She nuked 3 other factions (me included).

Overall, the first use of a PB by AI is still a mystery to me, why they use it sometimes and then another time, won't. I have never seen Lal, Diedre or The Pirates use a PB. Can't remember UoP.

[Skanderbeg]

Thanks for Your informations!

It seems right that the AI will first PB bases that the human player has occupied before it will PB bases with SP's.

In a game I played, with a PB war of me against two
AI factions, both enemies first planetbustered a base
I have occupied from then and after that, they attacked the SP bases.

[cbn]

I am wondering if my experience (SP only) with Planetbusters is unusual -- I have never had the AI fire one and only have ever built and fired one myself (just to see what it would do).

This is in a number of games (at transcend) which were conquest or diplomatic victories in the 2200s or early 2300s. Usually the AI doesn't even have the necessary tech. Even the few games that I have transcended I never remember being planet bustered or even an attempt. I would have about a half dozen ODPs up since I was hoping to start a space war ( something else that has never happened to me). Would this somehow convince the AI not to bother ?
cbn


Don't get me wrong-- this is not something I want to happen but is it unusal to never see a planet buster from about 80 SMAC games (half at transcend) and about 15 at SMAX (all but 2 at transcend)?

[Rex Little]

On the other hand: the last game I played, Miriam PB'd my original HQ, and a base I'd captured from Yang. Yang PB'd a base I'd built myself. The only thing all three bases had in common was SP's. All told I lost WP, HS, Supercollider, Theory of Everything, and a couple others I can't recall.

[Skanderbeg]

In my last game, there were not less than six (!) PB used! To my shame it was me (to make the mistake to?) push first the red button, because it seemed to me to be the only possibility to get the Hackers under control (they had a lot of SP, including planet traffic and clone vats and were pop booming, attacking me and probing me like mad all the time).
As response, I got two PB in return from the Hackers and two others from another selfmade faction. One of them hit one of my SP-bases that was essential for me, because of that and of giant ecodamage and sea level rising and because I just got a new record in transcendent level, I played the game not till the end, but I had just produced another two PB's ready to use.

In my recent game, I was number three in power graph, but leading far, far in tech. Number One is Domai, number two good ol' Miriam, who is in front of me in power graph only the broadth of a pubic hair. Both Domai and Miriam have PB's (they were so kind to tell me), and I myself have build to. Domai is my pactbrother, Miriam is in Vendetta with me. All others are far behind in power.
I am very interested what happens when
a) a begin to trandescent.
b) pass Miriam in powergraph, which would happen sooner or later.
I am afraid one of them will push the red button, but I have build the first flechettes, and the first defense orb is in production.
I am very interested

[RedFred]

cbn, I don't often see PBs fly but I have a few times. I have even had Flechette and ODP interceptions and three ODB wars including a great one with Yang.

This despite having never launched a PB at the AI ever. The difference is likely that I typically play through to Transcendance rather than go for a type of victory that would end the game sooner. I also notice that the further ahead in tech you are the less likely any of this will happen. I often experiment with new playing styles or handicaps which often gives the AI tech parity to me or better.

[Hydro]

Will Lal PB someone? Oh, yes he will. I guess the Charter goes out the window when it is convenient. Of the AIs, I've had Yang, Miriam (surprise!), and Lal throw PBs at me. In every case they targeted cites with large concentrations of troops, so they generally are nuking their own (captured) cities. I've only had one game where multiple PBs were used, and it was where Zak and Miriam formed an unholy alliance and voted to revoke the Charter (all the AIs overriding my veto) - very scary. Miriam immediately started gassing Morgan and her gas needles were gassing me. I bribe everyone to get the Charter back up and then invaded Miriam. Miriam nukes me in her territory. Zak declares vendetta on Miriam and nukes her. I continue invading, with Miriam making craters as I advance. By the time the game was effectively over Miriam had nuked most of her own territory in a twisted kind of scorched earth policy between her and Zak's nukes - The Ninth Plain of Hell in Believerland. Revelation made real.

Had one space war with Morgan. His ODPs started taking out mine, and then other satellites (that was the game when I realized the power of FM and lots of power satellites, which Morgan had and I didn't). He might have nuke me if I hadn't have built my ODPs faster than he could kill them. Then, in one massive strike, I killed all his orbitals and watched his cities crumble as they starved. Bastard deserved it, though. I was a Vengeful Deirdre in that game.

Like RedFred, I've never used a PB.

Had one asteroid strike, which took out an irrelevant size 16 captured Spartan city.

Hydro

[LeMark]

I have never posted to this before, and I have never played an MP game (save against someone who was an even bigger newbie than I am), so I have no idea if this would work in MP. But it seems to me that, when it comes to Planet-Busters, the delivery system is often overlooked. If PBs are stored in cities (and your enemy has infiltrated your datalinks), the enemy knows where they are and can attack and destroy them before there is a launch window. Also, there are times when there are no bases or airbases within striking range. As such, as it is possible to launch missiles from transport\carriers, this would seem a viable tactic. In SP I usually build at least one transport\carrier\sub, load it with a few nukes, and then park it off an enemy's coastline in fungus until it is appropriate to use them. Also, I sometimes (I modify my AlphaX.txt very heavily) build land transports/carriers, place a nuke onboard, and hide it in xenofungus as a sort of "reserve". But then, I have a passion for stockpiling nuclear weapons...

[mark13]

LeMark,
First off, welcome to the boards! We're a friendly lot really, you know....

The delivery system with PBs can often be problematic. The key to it is, the PB base should be defended to the brim. AAA units, ECM units, PD, TF, Space Complex - just about everything you can think of in defense. A PB costs a lot of minerals - I suppose it could be compared to losing an early SP. As such, you do not want to let a PB get destroyed. To be honest, I would never put nukes in Xenofungus off an enemy coast - sensors! I, for one, would certainly be only too happy to find a carrier loaded with 5 PBs off my coastline....

Mark13

[LeMark]

Oh, I did not mean _that_ close. Usually maybe nine or ten squares away-then, upon a launch decision, move it closer and fire away. Probably would not work in MP, though. Actually, one odd thing I have noticed about this tactic is that there seems to be a very odd bug when you try to combine carrier decks and submarines-I am not even entirely certain how to describe it.

[Simpson II]

Both marks ,

If you want to deliver some PBs, here is a method I've found successful in one MP game. Build yourself a needlejet colony pod and a reasonable number of your best SAM needlejets. Switch off the auto-return to base option for aircraft (this is really annoying!) Fly your CP jet out to an unoccupied island within range of your opponent's land-mass, found a base and fly in your needlejets and PBs. Unless your opponent has some nerve-gas jets or their own PB around (and people do neglect this until they're first attacked) there's not a lot they can do about it.
If you want to keep moving because not enough of the opponent's bases were in range, disband one of the jets and rush-build another CP-jet. Next turn you can abandon your base and fly the whole caboodle right into the gaps left in enemy territory.

Btw, When people talk about ODP wars, is this in SMAC or X? I've never seen the AI build a single satellite!
I've only seen one PB launched by the AI, but that's probably becase when they start to build them I usually drop in some troops and rip their empire apart. In that game I was out of PB range from every other inhabited land mass, so I sat back and let them play.
[This message has been edited by Simpson II (edited December 04, 2000).]

[Qualicide]

i see lots of cpus BUILD, but never use PBs, even dee has built one (she had the produc, with about 200+ cities and 900 pop ) but then she got nuked by the spartans, which shut off the land bridge and delayed her death

she tried to build another, gets crushed by dee and i take the last 2 sea cites

I myself tend to be nuke happy, i edited one game one time made about 20 singularity nukes and simply nuked every city off the planet
i also nuked yang a few times, he was a little to close
[This message has been edited by Qualicide (edited December 04, 2000).]

[cbn]

I have now finally seen the AI build a planetbuster. I am playing doubleblind and the Spartans built one long before i could do the chopper slaughter. Each turn I checked to make sure I knew where the darn PB was until finally the Spartans brought it closer to the frontier and in range of my jets and choppers. My Choppers killed 3 defenders and 4 conventional missles before nailing the PB. Now I have the only Buster and am very close to ODPs. I only hope that the dang computer will finally give me the tech (the joys of double blind).

Whats interesting is that all of the AI human factions now want to play nice with me even while they tell me off for building the buster. Hope to keep them peaceful while i go huntin' aliens.

[hellrazor]

Hmmm...I've seen the AI build PB's lots of times. In fact, as soon as the AI gets the tech, it starts building one or two, at least in my games. I've been nuked without warning by both Deidre and Yang.

[Rainstorm]

It does seem that AIs start building PBs as soon as they get the tech. I remember the first time I got nuked, I was Zak fighting an extended war with Miriam, gradually crossing a large expanse of fungus and empty land to get to her main city area. I knew she had a PB and kept moving it around from base to base. Everything was fine until I had to raze one of her captured cities (I was playing spoils of war, fun with Zak ) to prevent her from getting any critical techs. After that she got really mad, two turns later she nuked a critical city, the closest connected to my mag tube network and stacked with lots of troops. Luckily I ignored it, eventually declared for diplomatic victory, and we all crushed her as the lone unresisting faction.

In my current game I'm worried about Yang. I'm the Angels, only human factions left are Believers (with two cities that I gave them, firmly in my pocket) and Yang. Both aliens still in play. Me and the Usurpers are crushing Yang, but he still has a good many cities left and is building PBs like mad. I think he'll use them too, I haven't done any atrocities but he acts like I have, I think ignoring his comm message one time was very bad

[Skanderbeg]

Additional remark:

In my current game, the Aliens are planetbustering each other!

Current stand:

Caretakers:3 - Ursurpers:1

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Simpson II,

I like your quick hit approach. Your victim however does get a glimpse of what is coming if he has you infiltrated. That one turn touch down at the new base gives him a turn response.

So... I was giving this some thought and if I can suggest a modified approach maybe this is worth some merit.

Take a drop former and build an airbase instead of a colony. Follow your guidelines for unit movements. In this way this remote missile silo doesn't necessarily show up on the radar screen (via F4 garrison).

Now granted an intelligent Human opponent should be wondering if in turn 1 a PB was in a base and turn2 it's no longer there, where the heck did it go? He knows it is in a base if he goes to the F4 screen. And if he is scouting around for it the boundaries will tend to give it away, whilst an airbase (i.e. missile silo) is easier to hide.

Anyhoo, just a thought.
[This message has been edited by Ogie Oglethorpe (edited December 08, 2000).]

[Simpson II]

Ogie,

Heh, yes, I like it! A definite improvement, with a little more planning. I'm afraid I've never built an airbase, so that would nover have occured to me. It wouldn't have worked in the particular game where I used that strat, though, for the reason that my wierd and unsuccessful tech-path had lead me to orbital spaceflight before MMI! As it happened I don't think my opponent had me infiltrated either, though naming the base 'Memory of Paul' might have been a slight give away....

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Simpson II,

Hee Hee. Memory of Paul. Too Cruel!!




Og