Greece faces shame of role in Serb massacre

[Bereta_Eder]

just check the dates.

i also find it funny that you congratulate eachother

[Flatlander Fox]

Actually I am thanking him for shedding more light on the subject.

If you read other's posts, you can LEARN something.

Opportunities are there for young people, but they don't pay as well as moving hash up the coast.

[Bereta_Eder]

I personally would find it immensly more interesting to talk about croatia's present deplorable human rights which is the reason britain dont want them in the EU.


i dont care about bashing the US, this is being done on a daily basis.

and you also fail to grasp either the reality or the psyche of Greece in all of this.
thats what happens when you troll.

BTW i did a search on the net guardian is the only one with observer who has this story and they ar eboth english.

the only gays who would care about that (for obvious reasons of major difference of opinions with greece) or fail to realize the realities in that region

[Bereta_Eder]

and of course it is no accident that this weak pot shot against greece and the timing of the man's inquisision by the hague coincide with the greek presidency of the EU and the determination to move that organization as hard and fast is possible to foil the warmongering of the US in Iraq.

There is always a nice explanation for everything.

in any case it is immensly funny that croats with their nazi colaboration and their more recent repeat of their own history are the good guys here
(just here though in Poly)


immensly funny

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by paiktis22
Croatian ethnic cleaning and murders are the ones on the table too.

Well true however do not equal us with the Serbs as our 1/3 of the country was occupied and not 1/3 of Serbia. And when Serbs occupied the 1/3 of Croata they expelled everyone, all non-Serbs, around 500000 people, and those people were actually kicked out, as for the difference from 150000 Serbs that packed up and left in three days with all the belongings with them, trying to draw Serbia in a direct war.

And of course the mass exodus started after the bombings, just check the dates, little brainwashed darlings.

Exactly

I will give you the link for this here: http://shr.aaas.org/kosovo/pk/p1_2.html

that gives you
1)

In this study, ABA/CEELI and AAAS generate estimates of the number of killings that occurred between March 20 and June 12, 1999, dates that correspond generally with the period of the NATO air campaign. AAAS statisticians estimate that approximately 10,500 Kosovar Albanians were killed during this period. This estimate tracks closely the early numbers suggested by the U.S. Department of State and the ICTY. Furthermore, it is based upon statistical methods that would be defensible in a court of law

estimated number of dead in few weeks of Serbian action.

and
2)

By comparing the estimated numbers of people who left each municipality over time to the times when NATO airstrikes occurred, the AAAS study concludes that only a small fraction of Kosovar Albanians fled Kosova/Kosovo as a direct result of NATO bombing raids. It also concludes that the mass exodus of refugees from Kosova/Kosovo occurred in patterns so regular that they must have been coordinated. In the context of descriptive accounts given by refugees, the most likely explanation for the migration is the implementation of a centrally-organized campaign to clear at least certain regions of ethnic Albanians.

This last proposition is supported by the timing of reported killings seen in the analyses presented here. As is evident from comparing the upper and lower segments in the line graph in Figure 2, killing patterns mirror refugee flows extremely closely. If killings are used as a means of intimidation to facilitate mass, forced evictions, then refugee flows and killings would logically occur together.28 The close correspondence between the rise and fall of numbers of refugees leaving their homes and reported killings is wholly consistent with that postulate. Furthermore, the fact that the number of reported killings fluctuates in unison with refugee flows is consistent with the proposition that there was a centrally-organized campaign targeting ethnic Albanians.

and the conclusion

Previous work has concluded that the geography and timing of Kosovar Albanians’ mass departure from their homes suggests that there was an organized campaign to clear ethnic Albanians from parts of Kosovo. The patterns of people killed in Kosova/Kosovo over time and across space are similar to the migration patterns and also imply coordination. Narrative reports in the interviews in these datasets attributed the vast majority of the killings to Serbian forces. This claim is consistent with the information collected by other organizations such as the International Crisis Group30 and OSCE.31 In light of the descriptive sources’ attribution of human rights violations to Serbian forces and given the conclusion that the patterns of killings suggest central coordination, this report concludes that Serbian forces were responsible for conducting a coordinated campaign of killings against the Kosovar Albanians.

for the record... there is more in there if you can be bothered to read.

As for the Croats in Hague... true, and that is right as they do not have the right to kill the civilians who stayed behind even though this was a "defensive war". Even when the war is just, soldiers have to behave, and those who do not should face trial. btw... I think Croatia is the first country ever who fought a defensive war and won, and than its soldiers and generals went in front of a war tribunal beacuse the crimes were commited under their command. That can only be a good precedent for "higher powers" but it remains to be seen when will that happen.

In the same way one would expect the Greek government with some diecency to ask some questions regarding the "happanings" and support (direct or indirect - shipments of arms and similar) for Bosnian Serbs, but it seem that we are not getting any.

[Bereta_Eder]

oh yes poor little croatia is so ****ing pristine.

sorry we ethnic cleansed but hey it was war


and the waves of albanians leaving for fyrom and albania started after the bombings, period.

anyone who would care to look without an agenda will see it written all over the place.

they have to avoid the US/UK propaganda machines of course

[Bereta_Eder]

sounds like what happened in WW2 happened again.

dont give me any crap, i know full well the nationalistic rage and foam of the mouth of croatians.
what are you know? civilized? cause the serbs took all the blame?
dont make me but a chop laughing

[Bereta_Eder]

and the greek government is going to ask itself anything when the US and the UK do and not only do but are subjected to trial for their own crimes.

untill that time comes, untill justice is universal and uniform,
dont hold your breath.

there isnothing to ask.

croatia OTOH as a small country will have to go and asnwer for SOME of its crimes.

some since the serbs were picked to be the demons.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by paiktis22
oh yes poor little croatia is so ****ing pristine.

sorry we ethnic cleansed but hey it was war

Did I say that Croatia was "pristine"?

and the waves of albanians leaving for fyrom and albania started after the bombings, period.

Oh come on I have given you a link giving you the dates and the study.
Let me repeate a Greek

The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance - Socrates

You seem to be ignoring the link I gave you and you are not trying to read it even to increase your knowledge.

anyone who would care to look without an agenda will see it written all over the place.

they have to avoid the US/UK propaganda machines of course

show us "all over the place"

[Ozz]

Originally posted by paiktis22
DL Ozz, why is Greece in NATO?

Don't worry we try hard to create the European equiavaltn and tell you all yanks to get the hell back to your holes

Err.. Who with? Serbia, Russia, maybe. No one else would want to trust Greece.

EU may be wondering about value of Greece's membership also, unless they just want to absorb the balkans to put an end to the "Powderkeg of Europe"

[OneFootInTheGrave]

I am a bit late in answering you type like a machine

Originally posted by paiktis22
and the greek government is going to ask itself anything when the US and the UK do and not only do but are subjected to trial for their own crimes.

Hey I did not say that Greek government is to blame, but I was suprised this happened, as Axi says there is always right wing lunatics everywhere. But still weapons shipment, and support and that noone is questioning what happened? The Dutch government fell because their peacekeepers did not protect the people that they should have, even thouht that would have mean death for them as they were not able to withstand the attack. On the other hand Greek flag was waved once the city fell and Greek government is just ignoring this. Perhaps you can tell me where they distanced themselves from the acts of volunteers. That is something one would expect. No?

As for US and UK... I haven't seen US flag waved when Croats were capturing cities did you? To go a bit further a government does respond at least to distance itself from such actions if not condemn usually. I agree that many US actions are not right as you know, but does it give you the right to support your own government when they act ignorant?

untill that time comes, untill justice is universal and uniform,
dont hold your breath.

I sure wont

there isnothing to ask.

sure there is as above for example

croatia OTOH as a small country will have to go and asnwer for SOME of its crimes.

yes we are small and that is why we have to go in front with everyone, even our chief of staff than is gonna get a trial, but there is a whole play in the country and the government almost fell twice because of it in the last year, as you can see it is no trivial matter, and I wouldn't say only "some" will be charged. Noone is getting off lightly. And that is the reason the Brits oppose Croatian enterance to EU... the whole play about the general who is 83 and now in hospital (but didn't want to go initially to the hospital and still doensn't want to go to Hague).

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave
I am a bit late in answering you type like a machine

youre joking right?

i am doing 3 things at a time poly is one

[Bereta_Eder]

[SIZE=1]
As for US and UK... I haven't seen US flag waved when Croats were capturing cities did you?

ha. hahahaha. haaaaaaaahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa


they were giving ya sorry asses latest tech to fight the serbs, its admitted even by the US.
otherwiese they'd had kicked your ass in the grass and there would be any croatia baby
and you etnhic cleansed

[Arrian]

It's easier when you type gibberish one-liners, as opposed to a substantive post.

-Arrian

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Come on you did three responses for one of mine... you couldn't have been doing three things than

[Bereta_Eder]

plus they trained (US and UK did) albanian terrorists against the serbs.
also know.

until THEY are brought to justic efor their crimes...

and untill NATO bombuibngs which was illegal is also put to trial...
then maybe you'll see greece say: sorry for giving humanitarian aid to the dying people of serbia.


untill then or untill someone forces us since we are also a small country (and be sure they have enough enemies already without wanting to make even more than necessairy)

dont hold your ****ing breath!

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Hey I didn't say they did not help us, of course they did - actually US only not UK. But they weren't raising their flag either.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by paiktis22
plus they trained (US and UK did) albanian terrorists against the serbs.
also know.

until THEY are brought to justic efor their crimes...

and untill NATO bombuibngs which was illegal is also put to trial...
then maybe you'll see greece say: sorry for giving humanitarian aid to the dying people of serbia.


untill then or untill someone forces us since we are also a small country (and be sure they have enough enemies already without wanting to make even more than necessairy)

dont hold your ****ing breath!

hey have to go... but it wouldn't harm you to read the link I posted about the dates

[Arrian]

But, OFITG, that's all lies and US propoganda! Can't you SEE, man?!?!?! The American Imperialist Aggressors made all that up so they could... what was the justification again? Oh, yeah, "justify the existence of Nato."



-Arrian

[Bereta_Eder]

who the hell cares IF they raised their flag?


and they werent just "llonie" volunteers either. they wer governments training terrorists and helping you ethnic cleasne.

dont give me any of that crap.

just smile when you give us your eu application next months

[Bereta_Eder]

arrian youre an idiot

[Flatlander Fox]

Originally posted by paiktis22
they were giving ya sorry asses latest tech to fight the serbs, its admitted even by the US.
otherwiese they'd had kicked your ass in the grass and there would be any croatia baby
and you etnhic cleansed

After reading this post I realized that you obviously are not Greek, but one of the Serb minority living in Greece.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[Bereta_Eder]

besides im done with this thread
case closed

[Flatlander Fox]

*waves*

Now can someone ELSE produce some evidence stating that the bombing caused the exodus?

I'm waiting to be shown the light...

[Bereta_Eder]

But the German general Heinz Loquai has demonstrated that the so-called 'horse-shoe plan' document presented by the German minister Scharping was fake, that the genocide was a lie of the media and he just qualified the war as 'unjustified', and accused NATO to have caused two humanitarian catastrophes: a massive exodus of the Albanians and then another exodus of the Serbs. And the general Michael Rose, who commanded the UN forces in Bosnia, reproaches NATO "to have introduced a culture of violence"




sources


1) Michel Collon, Monopoly - L'Otan à la Conquête du monde, EPO, march 2000, p. 96. (English edition prepared) (2) The Guardian, February 15, 2001. (3) Idem. (4) Idem. (5) AFP-Skopje, March 6, 2001. (6) Washington Post, April 28, 1999. (7) Pittsburgh Gazette, March 11, 2001. (8) Time, 8 mars 2001 (9) Both cited in Kan Anders-Vredeskoerier (Holland), march 2001. (10) Declaration of Robertson (NATO), AP, March 6. (11) L'Humanité, November 18, 1999 (12) Pittsburgh Gazette, March 11, 2001 (13) Michel Collon, Poker menteur, EPO, 1998, p. 191. (Soon published in English version) (14) See Monopoly, pp. 70-71. (15) The European mediator in Bosnia, David Owen, cited in Michel Collon, Poker menteur, EPO, 1998, p. 182. (16) Michel Collon, Poker menteur, p. 116. (17) Le Figaro, February 10, 2001. (18) PBS, February 14, 2001. (19) AFP - Paris, March 8, 2001. (20) BBC, March 6. (21) Reuters - Skopje, March 8, 2001. (22) BBC, March 6. (23) Reuters - London, March 8, 2001




byeeeeeee

[Arrian]

Flatlander,

Let's maybe try and actually have a reasonable discussion here. Here's a question:

We agree that NATO's intervention wasn't properly done. You indicated that NATO underestimated the level of hatred (particularly, I assume, on the part of the ethnic Albanians vs. the Serbs), and was not prepared to deal with the backlash. With the gift of hindsight, what do you think could have been done to prevent or at least limit the anti-Serbian backlash by the ethnic Albanians and to contain or even break the KLA?

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Paiktis, do you happen to have a link handy for any of the listed sources? Just curious, as it would make finding the articles easier.

-Arrian

[Bereta_Eder]

support the Greek (and others) position for a political solution doh!

and NOT boycott it so to invade and justify the existance of NATO.


oh and



It is known, however, that until March 24th, the day the war began, there had been no mass exodus of Albanians from Kosovo. The province known for its long-running ethnic conflict has for many years been home to Albanian terrorists who set up the Kosovo Liberation Army. Naturally, their operations prompt a reaction from the Yugoslav authorities. Incidentally, it was the United States and other NATO members that have repeatedly warned of the danger of terrorist organizations gaining strength



same sources as above

[Flatlander Fox]

Tough call. We thought we could go in, and have a Bosnian like reaction, where people really stopped fighting.

But the difference was that in Bosnia, the people WERE TIRED of fighting.

In Kosovo, the fighting had just begun.

In hindsight we should have stepped in before the real killing began, instead of waiting until the situation spiralled out of control.

Also, a severe crackdown on Albanian Terrorists should have happened IMMEDIATELY. Often, they were let off easy after being caught running weapons across the border.

Once again, we allowed the situation to get too far out of control.

The bottom line is that the U.S. did NOT want to deal with this like they ended up doing.

The hopes within the military ranks were that the Europeans would handle this particular mess, and leave us not necessarily out of it, but not the driving force behind it.


So what you get is a wishy-washy decision making process, which is what REALLY hurt the Kosovars in the long run.

[Flatlander Fox]

Yeah, and once your political solution was finished, the ethnic-albanians would all be in Macedonia and Albania right?

Sounds alot like Chamberlain waiting on Hitler to annex Czech.


Your views disgust me.