Greece faces shame of role in Serb massacre - Page 8

Bereta_Eder · January 10, 2003, 16:46

DL Ozz up your arse DL, everyone knows it you are.
your antihellenic views are well known by now.
And cant break anything that is acting illegal to begin with.
get your facts straight once more.
when scores die from illnesses you have to DO something or youre not human. i know you are not but talking generally
but i agree that outsiders did the most damage. 2000 civilians didnt die from the inside...

And Greece is the president of the EU, currently.
And a godamn goodlooking country too.

Dinodoc, love you too honey

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
In other words, if the Nato countries showed up in court too, to respond to the accusations such as those made on that website (you don't claim that the site is an objective news site, do you? It's a Serbian site dedicated to their side of the story. That doesn't mean it's all made up - it means it's only part of the picture), you would be happy to rationally discuss the possible involvement of Greeks?

I too would say "let's go." Unfortunately, I'm not capable of bringing that to pass, except for supporting in my own little way (voting) the US joining the ICC.

-Arrian

Absolutely

In this case, I would be not only willing but happy to have all countries including Greece go there and have a fair trial for all.

Because I believe that transparency coupled with justice for all is what will make this world a better place.
No matter how this sounds, it's the truth and is far more brave than any "fighting hawk military gays politicians".

Arrian · January 10, 2003, 17:00

I have not idea what "fighting hawk military gays" are.

But I'm glad we found something, eventually, to agree on.

Still think I'm an "idiot" Paiktis?

-Arrian

Sava · January 10, 2003, 17:03

Quote:

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Seig Heil, Sava. You sound like David Duke.

Coming from a conservative in Mississippi, I guess you're the expert

how's your senator doing now.... oooooooooooohhh!

Quote:

"We kicked Turkish as5 at the original battle of Kosovo, no reason we're going to let some human scum steal our homeland from us."

I thought you were American?

I am... but I'm Serbian American foo!

I don't blame you Americans from not knowing what the situation is like. You haven't experienced the things me or my family has experienced. You don't know what life is like in Serbia, and you certainly don't know the history of Serbia during and after WW2. You see pictures of Slobo on CNN and hear catch phrases like "ethnic cleansing" and "mass graves" and you formulate this stereotype about what went on in Kosovo. You are victims of propaganda and that's why I don't hold it against you.

Maybe some day we can all sit around the camp fire singing KumBaYa and I can educate you about the things you don't know

.

And just for the record, DD, because you so eloquently greeted me with that Nazi greeting... the Albanians and Croats allied with the Nazis during WW2... and then with the Stalinists afterwords. Many of my family were killed during the course of these events. So think about this before you go around butting into topics that you don't know sh!t about.

Bereta_Eder · January 10, 2003, 17:03

Arrian,
I dont think you're an idiot.
In another place we would speak politely but here i have to piss off the trolls as well

gay military politicians are the firebrand "preachers" from whatever country who talk about wars etc

DanS · January 10, 2003, 17:08

"I am... but I'm Serbian American foo!"

Can we ship you back over? I'm not one much for hyphenation.

Flatlander Fox · January 10, 2003, 17:15

Once again, the discussion is sidetracked by grandstanding and name calling.

If the U.S. and U.K. trained and supplied the KLA, they would have defeated the Serb army.

I have seen both sides fight, and I can promise you that they were NOT trained by the U.S. or U.K.

Sava, accusing us of not knowing what happened there is silly, considering that opinions of eye witnesses and opinions of interested observers are very nearly the same.

I agree that people that should be held accountable for certain things that happened there. I also know that some of those people will never have to account for that.

It's not fair, but neither is life.

But to paint the whole issue with the colors of your choosing, without facts to back it up is a precedent that you shouldn't get into a habit of. Emotions are dangerous things.

Sava · January 10, 2003, 17:15

Quote:

Originally posted by DanS
"I am... but I'm Serbian American foo!"

Can we ship you back over? I'm not one much for hyphenation.

Sorry, I was born in the US. My mom's side is Serbian. Anyways, my grandfather (a naturalized citizen and WW2 veteran) did a lot more than you did to ensure that you would have the freedom to be a shmuck

Sava · January 10, 2003, 17:17

for the last damn time Flatlander... I"M NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU!

Ozz · January 10, 2003, 17:25

Quote:

Originally posted by paiktis22
DL Ozz up your arse DL

Oh you GOT TO be able to do better than that.

Pathic, just pathic

Quote:

Originally posted by paiktis22
your antihellenic views are well known by now.

You mean my anti-oathbreaker views are well known, which in this case amounts to the same thing.

Making and KEEPING agreements makes peace, making and breaking agreements makes war, war with no end
cause one side can't be trusted to keep their word.

Frankly the other points raised and argued in this thread (as horrorable as they are) pale in comparsion
to this, because this guarentees that war round 2, 3, and 4 will occur.

Making and keeping agreements is what separates civilized nations from the pariahs.

Greece EU president eh, well whatever it takes to try and keep the problem children of europe out of trouble until THEY GROW UP.

Flatlander Fox · January 10, 2003, 17:32

Sava, I'm not talking about me either.

I'm talking about people who have never been to Serbia, but share the same views as I do about the conflicts there.

You discount them by saying "You don't know what you are talking about because you have never been there/Media-Propaganda makes you say that Slobo was a Genocidal Dictator."

Some of their views are wrong, and I have said so. But others have been shared by me, and you discard them.

Arrian · January 10, 2003, 17:38

Quote:

I don't blame you Americans from not knowing what the situation is like. You haven't experienced the things me or my family has experienced. You don't know what life is like in Serbia, and you certainly don't know the history of Serbia during and after WW2. You see pictures of Slobo on CNN and hear catch phrases like "ethnic cleansing" and "mass graves" and you formulate this stereotype about what went on in Kosovo. You are victims of propaganda and that's why I don't hold it against you.

I know that the media reports were not balanced (though I didn't see that as conspiracy, but rather a mistake due to overzealous journalists who thought they had "discovered" a 2nd holocaust or something. Dumb, but not as sinister as some claim). But assuming that all Americans (of which you are one) discussing this topic are "victims of propoganda" who took whatever CNN or the other networks said and nodded & smiled is... well, insulting our intelligence. Which is why people tend to react angrily.

I do not rely on just one source. I get my news from a mixture of news outlets around the world.

Plus, when all of this was going down, I had a pro-Serb Father (he's Brittish, served in WWII, and remembers the Serbs were on our side in that one) constantly warning me that he didn't think things were quite what they seemed to be. As it turns out, he was correct.

Anyway, don't be so quick to call other people sheep (which is basically what you were doing).

-Arrian

Flatlander Fox · January 10, 2003, 17:42

Well, it was the media sensationalism that really made a rushed judgement happen in the first place.

The inital estimates had hundreds of thousands of refugees DEAD.

In hindsight we could have done more good for the people there by not listening to the media reports, and executing a plan that would be a bit more comprehensive, instead of so knee jerk.

Arrian · January 10, 2003, 17:45

My impression too. Kosovo made me aware of the phenomenon I refer to as the "media feeding frenzy." Happens all the time... but rarely has such nasty effects.

-Arrian

Bereta_Eder · January 10, 2003, 17:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Ozz
Making and keeping agreements is what separates civilized nations from the pariahs.

Then you agree that the countries who took part in the NATO bombing are pariahs since it was an obvious breach of international law?

Then you agree that turkey violating air space is a pariah?

Then you agree that Cyprus is illegally occupied since it is in breach of international law? And that err turkey is a pariah AGAIN?

Good for you!

Quote:

Greece EU president eh, well whatever it takes to try and keep the problem children of europe out of trouble until THEY GROW UP.

Yeah whatever antihellene

The only thing need growing up is you d!ick in order to have the courgae to post not under your DL persona

And it's the law that Greece is the President.
And laws must be kept now right?

You are pathetic. Dont bother me.

Bereta_Eder · January 10, 2003, 17:59

My impression too. Kosovo made me aware of the phenomenon I refer to as the "media feeding frenzy." Happens all the time... but rarely has such nasty effects.

-Arrian

Arrian unfortunately that media frenzy also happened in Greece. In reverse.

Arrian · January 10, 2003, 18:05

Quote:

Arrian unfortunately that media frenzy also happened in Greece. In reverse

Why the **** couldn't you have just said things like this in the first place, Paiktis? Instead, you posted tons of rambling, ranting posts that made you look like a nutcase... all you had to do was react calmly. To the extent that people trolled you, the best response is NOT to sink to their level (or well beyond that). It's to respond calmly and factually, and refuse to get riled.

At least that's my opinion.

-Arrian

DinoDoc · January 10, 2003, 18:11

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
To the extent that people trolled you, the best response is NOT to sink to their level (or well beyond that).

He fed them from his very first post on. It's amusing to see him "shocked" that people responded in kind.

Ozz · January 10, 2003, 19:54

Quote:

Originally posted by paiktis22
Then you agree that the countries who took part in the NATO bombing are pariahs since it was an obvious breach of international law?

Then you agree that turkey violating air space is a pariah?

Then you agree that Cyprus is illegally occupied since it is in breach of international law? And that err turkey is a pariah AGAIN?

No, It was an international effort basically trying to keep
a bunch of morons from geneciding each other as soon
as Tito wasn't around to knock their thick heads together and make them behave. As a war it ranks
second right behind the soccer war as the stupidest,
most obnoxious conflict in human history.

Yes, if it is, (But only Greece said so, If the Turks say no, i'd believe them before Greece, see how dishonourable actions haunt a country?)

No, The Turks have the right to sent troops there according to the Cyprus Constitution. There is no
UN embargo on Turkey, their would be if they were
in violation of an UN resolution. (like South Africa,
Iraq, etc.) Cyprus is just another example of were Greece has blood on it's hands and a soiled reputation.

Bereta_Eder · January 10, 2003, 19:59

DL, I will not argue anymore with you.
Its futile to argue with a DL.

Occupied Cyprus is not recognized that is proof enough.

Turkey had received an arms embargo for its invasion but its geostrategic position made that go away.

Turkey is not a member of the EU. Greece is. Hence Greece FAR more trustworthy than Turkey ever will be.
(and of course it will not be a member just listen to today's prodi's declarations).

But what am I doing arguing with a DL?

Greece' reputation suffered? Not in the slightest.

You are a DL. Look at the rep of US instead.

Bereta_Eder · January 10, 2003, 19:59

oh and also

Quote:

No, It was an international effort basically trying to keep
a bunch of morons from geneciding each other as soon
as Tito wasn't around to knock their thick heads together and make them behave. As a war it ranks blah blah

No, it was a violation of International and UN law.

You can't bend your rules to the ones you want and the ones you dont, if you are to remain true to what you said.

Also Free Cyprus enters the EU.

Am I to be pissed at you my sorry ass little DL?

Your antihellenic ramblings change nothing.

Better read up on the priorities of the Greek EU presidency and give up your antihellenic vile.

I also know you visited pro turkish sites.

So better copy it right.

The turkish military regime (not its Islamic government)
calls Greece the spoiled child of the west.

Thats rich coming from them

Besides Id call us old farts. 5.000 years old is not young.

So, sorry, you lose (again)

It is interesting to see the battle between the regime and the islamists in turkey raging on BTW.
and you know why Greece has no ill reputation from CYprus? Because it wasnt a democracy. It was a dictatorship backed by the US.

And they know full well their share of the blame. the UK too. Us too. Unlike you.

Just like Grece has no bad reputation from Serbia. The realization onc eagain that we are different from western Europe maybe. But that is always a given and a nice thing to have inside Europe.

Bereta_Eder · January 10, 2003, 20:12

Not to mention that the vice president of the European Central Bank is Greek.

And there are HIGH chances that the next President of the European COmmission will also be Greek.

Also the EU now listens primareily to Greece with everything concernign the Balkans and Turkey.

Is this the image of a non trustworthy country?

I think not.
It is the image of a country that knows a little bit more what goes on in this part of the wrold (logical since it has lived and prospered here whereas all of its neighboors are in tatters). And that's an asset.

Thank you for giving me the chance to give forth this info, DL. I just do it to piss you off more.

Oh and please don't threadjack.

DinoDoc · January 10, 2003, 20:24

This thread had such potential. Shame Zorba had to throw it in the toilet.

Bereta_Eder · January 10, 2003, 20:37

They did it before me by posting trolls, en mass.

Still, behave, and there is a chance.

Bereta_Eder · January 10, 2003, 20:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Ozz
Yes, if it is, (But only Greece said so, If the Turks say no, i'd believe them before Greece, see how dishonourable actions haunt a country?)

Not only Greece said no.

Now, you don't get to decide what is honourable for a country. The arms do not make justice. And you can't tell countries to behave if they screaming under your bombs.Don't be so patronizing.

Quote:

There is no UN embargo on Turkey, their would be if they werein violation of an UN resolution. (like South Africa,
Iraq, etc.)

There are not a lot of things for Turkey.
An embargo on arms was in order when it commited massacres of Kurds in the '90s. And a UN economic embargo too.

There wasn't because Turkey is an important geostrategic ally of the west.

That's double standrads, and there is, of course, nothing honourable about that either.

You eagerness to believe Turkey just shows how little you understand the way the world works.

Also you shouldn't be so quick to talk about honour since most of the actions you speak of are totally devoided of any.

Oh and ofcourse you're tottaly uninformed about the facts you claim to know onc e more:
There are many UN resolutions calling for the complete removal of turkish occupational troops from n. cyprus. They are simply not being enforced by anybody.

Can your mind grasp why?

Bereta_Eder · January 10, 2003, 21:17

And in 2004 Free Cyprus enters the EU.

Can your little mind grasp what that means?

Under International Law, the EU will have a part of it under occupation.

That's something the islamist foreign minister of Turkey acknowledged and urged its country to think about it.

Without your partonizing and little petty geopolitical games Turkey is beggining to find its path in this world and what is good for her.
And it's Islamism and friendship with Greece all in one.
Under its Islamic government it respects Greece's rightful cutomes in Constantinople more than ever. For the first time since the creation of the turkish state, The Patriarch performed openly the baptism of the waters of Constantinople.

Islamism my sorry ass DL for your dear little Turkey. And it's better for Greece than ever.
If you can't grasp that either, then that's your problem. People around here have suffered long enough with your games, and you talk about honour.
Anyway, you have your own problems. Osama, under your principles, is a very honourable man.

OneFootInTheGrave · January 10, 2003, 22:39

Quote:

Originally posted by paiktis22
its is silly to talk about involvement from greece when the crimes that have been comiited by all and by the geams of the US and the UK are so much more dire.

greece was 100% pro serb, that was no secret and onefoot knew it, being a croat.

some volunteers went to find that was also known

greece bypassing UN embargoes and offering humanitarian aid to serbia which was dying is also known and acknowledged

russian provide for oil and greek provide is also known

these are not hidden facts.

and yet you have the guts to say this a few posts below:

Quote:

Not to mention that the vice president of the European Central Bank is Greek.

And there are HIGH chances that the next President of the European COmmission will also be Greek.

Also the EU now listens primareily to Greece with everything concernign the Balkans and Turkey.

Is this the image of a non trustworthy country?

I think not.
It is the image of a country that knows a little bit more what goes on in this part of the wrold (logical since it has lived and prospered here whereas all of its neighboors are in tatters). And that's an asset.

isn't the article and your own words a sign that EU countries should not be conting on Greek "knowledge" or better say bias in their Balkan policy. Perhaps they shold reconsider the appointments and make Greek government act as an accountoble entity regarding their previous actions? No?

Furthermore

as you want to show some of Croatian commited attrocities from a pro-Serb page here is one Serb page (actualy from Serb magazine) what Serbs did to Croats in Vukovar. As you can see I can appreciate that they are willing to show the truth now, to at least appear.

http://www.cdsp.neu.edu/info/student.../danas106.html

a quote

Quote:

Even the reporter of the patriotic Belgrade daily Vecernje Novosti then recorded that people who were found in the hospital on November 19 1991 were taken away. According to Politika, Tanjug reported that there were "420 wounded and 400 civilians" in the Vukovar hospital.

According to the findings of the Hague Tribunal, about 400 individuals were taken on that day from the hospital and first taken to a nearby barracks, and then to the Ovcara farm. In the barracks they were kept for about two hours in the buses. During that time, based on orders of major Sljivicanin, fifteen men were taken off the buses.

In Ovcara YPA soldiers and members of the Serb paramilitary formations took men and women off the bus and forced them to run between two lines of soldiers who beat them. Soldiers then continued to beat them for several hours inside a building at the farm. At least two men died from the beating. YPA soldiers and members of Serb paramilitary units, with Dokmanovic's assistance, on November 20, in the evening, murdered from firearms and in other ways at least 198 men and two women. The victims were buried with a bulldozer at the same location. Another fifty men taken from the hospital on the same day are still listed as missing.

The remains of the victims were exhumed from the mass grave in Ovcara in 1997.

-that was in 1991 at teh beginning of the war while the attrocities you mentioned at the end happened in 1995. I am not saying that one is better than the other, however after being drawn in a war acting in this way you can expect the other side to act similarly too.

and when we are at the conflict

Croatian page about the conflict and civil victims below:

http://www.hr/hrvatska/WAR/civil_c.html

and a report on human conditions in the region from 1992 to 1995 and includes many attrocities commited in war from Mr. Tadeusz Mazowiecki created for the UN. In there you can find attrocities commited by all three sides indeed, there are 13 lenghty reports so it is a long read (I just read some parts so far), but is a good proof that UN or the international community was not biased. And you can find what all the sides were accused of doing if interested, on all fronts at the time

http://www.haverford.edu/relg/sells/...azowiecki.html

however an interesting quote from third report:

Quote:

A. The early stages

5. The first wave of ethnic cleansing in eastern Bosnia and Herzegovina was carried out by Serb forces in April/May 1992. From the summer of 1992 until February 1993, only three "pockets" or "enclaves" remained under government control in the east. For most of this period, the enclaves consisted of Cerska/Konjevic Polje; Srebrenica and Gorazde; and the Zepa area. During the whole of this period there were no independent observers who gained broad access to the area.

6. Attempts by the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) to provide humanitarian aid to the enclaves or to evacuate wounded from these enclaves were almost continuously thwarted from the outset, despite repeated assurances from leaders of Serb forces. Reasons proffered for denying or delaying access for convoys have included attempts by Serb forces to make such access conditional upon freedom of movement for Serbs from Government-held Tuzla. The issue is discussed elsewhere in this report.

7. In December/January 1993 government forces launched an offensive which resulted in the "enclaves" (excluding the Zepa area) becoming a single, much larger "enclave". On 1 March 1993 air drops of humanitarian aid by the United States of America began in coordination with the United Nations Protection Force (UNPROFOR) and UNHCR. These airdrops have undoubtedly saved lives, particularly in Srebrenica. Meanwhile, UNHCR continued its efforts to deliver 1,000 tonnes of supplies a day in all of Bosnia and Herzegovina, with the protection of UNPROFOR.

Which points out that the Bosnia war was started by Bosnian Serbs that the Greeks like yourself are so keen to support. And it took ~ 6 months for the legal government to launch an offensive (to get organised for war properly) and they reamained to represent the Muslim element in Bosnia.

* just to note that the Croatian - Muslim conflict started a few months after ~ mid 1993.

The first report on war crimes from the area is pretty much "Serb commited crimes" oriented which is not suprising as they started the war here:

http://www.haverford.edu/relg/sells/reports/1st.html

If you are interested in causes of Serbian aggression in the region I have a Croatian page for you here:

http://www.algonet.se/~bevanda/aggression.htm

and Vojislav Seselj an outspoken Serb politician and nationalist, hinting at the true motives and the plan in the interview to the Serbian magazine here:

http://www.cdsp.neu.edu/info/student...e/vreme10.html

Quote:

Come on, haven't you demanded, throughout this war that the government stay strong before the rest of the world, cut off all links and say "that's enough, no more negotiations"? Hasn't this policy brought us where we are today? Whatever it takes?

Had the regime done as we demanded it would have achieved much more. The Americans were shocked by what Milosevic agreed to in Dayton. Why do American diplomats talk about the "whiskey corridor"? It is unbelievable to what he agreed in Dayton. They approached him scientifically; they have in a computer his personality profile and use that to plan how to negotiate with him. They know that he is a man who at first resists, only to later give in and accept much more than what had been asked from him at the beginning. The policy of procrastination has caused the bad situation on all fronts. In war, one must have a radical goal. You have to try to achieve the maximum, then see what you can keep. And we had 37 cease fires in 1991 only. Why weren't Dubrovnik, Sibenik, Karlovac and Ogulin captured? Why wasn't all Western Slavonia, Osijek, Vinkovci, Zupanja captured...? If they were captured we would today have a completely different situation...

- to point out that all the cities he menitones are Croatian and if you look at the link before that it coincides well with the plan outlined there.

I am not proving the point that Croats commited no crimes in the war (or muslims either), however what I am pointing to you is that Serbs were the aggressors, and your country recognized that and suported them, which you not only say was true - but as well right.

Now I believe everyone reasonable can question how can a biased Greek government can lead the politics towards the region in the future. If the article doesn't prove enough it is biased you are just confirming the unpleasant fact with your own words, and you obviously know more about Greek politics that we non-Greeks do. I think it should be a concerning matter for other EU members too. Personally I was not aware of such Greek support for Bosnian Serb politics.

And for the end if you are interested in some images from the conflict go here: http://photoarts.com/haviv/bosnia/ruin.html

This above is a great site

and it can remind you of the horrors of war. Really worth clicking on.

Bereta_Eder · January 10, 2003, 22:41

just read your first post. sorry im a bit bored

yeah, cause now is now and then is then.

Bereta_Eder · January 10, 2003, 22:42

and many things have changed in the EU proper and in Grecia.

VetLegion · January 12, 2003, 09:47

Hey, what happened to this thread?

Bereta_Eder · January 12, 2003, 09:49

We have been reminded again of the crimes of Croatia and it was closed