Has there ever been a communist society that worked?

Godbear · January 9, 2003, 17:43

Just curious I know we have lots of commies here. Has there ever been a communist run society that didn't collapse into dictatorship like the USSR and China?

SlowwHand · January 9, 2003, 17:45

no.

Bereta_Eder · January 9, 2003, 17:47

Yugoslavia untill communism collapsed. It wasn't that bad. But when communism went down...

Starchild · January 9, 2003, 17:54

I'm trying to read more on the Paris commune but, as is typical, the local library has such absurd hours I can never get there in time.

rah · January 9, 2003, 17:57

There were many communes in the US that were successful for many years that were run using communist ideals. In a small society where everyone knows everyone, it can be very very effective. But on a larger level, NOT A CHANCE.

Kropotkin · January 9, 2003, 17:59

There was also a promising socialist development in parts of spain during the civil war before the commies came in and sabotaged everything.

orange · January 9, 2003, 18:00

true communism or stalinism? If the former, I agree with Rah. If the latter, depends on your definition of works. It worked for some.

I'd say true communism has never existed except on small scale 'utopias'. Other than that, one could possibly make a case for a few native american tribes. But even they had a heirarchy of power.

Imran Siddiqui · January 9, 2003, 18:00

Define 'worked'

Nubclear · January 9, 2003, 18:12

True communism could only work with the total elimination of capitalism (And of course the unification of the entire race) if you were to apply it to a large scale.

Unfortunately, the chances of this happening are quite small

Shi Huangdi · January 9, 2003, 18:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Godbear
Just curious I know we have lots of commies here. Has there ever been a communist run society that didn't collapse into dictatorship like the USSR and China?

Communism has often provided societies with temporary advancement. In many communist countries once ther country goes red it has seen economic progress and social reform. Still however, though communist countries have advanced up to a certain point, they usually stagnate once in a while and countries which have kept their command economy have stayed pretty poor. Even worse, in every communist country that has stayed communist for a long period of time has developed an authoritarian system that disrespects it's peoples civil rights. From my standpoint at least, I wouldn't say any new form of government has "worked" if it has produced a dictatorship/oligarchy and there is a lack of political freedom.

Once of the worst parts of communism however is that it has proven to be a very difficult system to get out of. There are a multitude of cases where right-wing authoritarian system have collapsed in to healthy and prosperous democracies. But communism has proven to be a difficult system to transfer out of. There have been a few countries that have done a good job at reforming such as East Germany, Lithuania, and Hungary. However for the most part it has been more problematic. Russia is the best example where since the fall of communism, the country still faces problems of corruption, problems of the old entrenched bureaucrats, problems of developing civil right. You can also see good example of ultra-corrupt societies forming in Romania and Armenia and in some other cases. North Korea seems perpetually stuck in Stalinism. China and Vietnam lost their economic aspects of communism, but their authoritarian Communist Party leaders have still succeded in holding on to power in their now communist in name only states.

Bereta_Eder · January 9, 2003, 18:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi

Communism has often provided societies with temporary advancement.

Wrong.
Itr has provided a 3rd world country a superpower status in just 70 years.

Quote:

Still however, though communist countries have advanced up to a certain point, they usually stagnate once in a while and countries which have kept their command economy have stayed pretty poor.

Not unless they're an enemy they have to buy guns to counter.

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Even worse, in every communist country that has stayed communist for a long period of time has developed an authoritarian system that disrespects it's peoples civil rights.

That is exactly what the US (who was for democracy) has done to its own satelites , so no difference whatsoever there.

Quote:

Once of the worst parts of communism however is that it has proven to be a very difficult system to get out of.

That's a too simplistic view. They are dozens of situations with dozens of different end results.

The chez republic, slovenia and even hungary are more advanced than "capitalistic" states who have been "free" for years.

They are a myriad of shades of communism and NKorea types is just one of them.

Still communism is to thank for for the social state of Europe. It's impact on the world was more beneficial than if it never existed.

It also helped tear down the masks of what west's democracy is all about.

And it will never really go away. Just evolve and evolve.

Immortal Wombat · January 9, 2003, 18:43

There's never been a true communism. So no.

Imran Siddiqui · January 9, 2003, 18:46

Quote:

Itr has provided a 3rd world country a superpower status in just 70 years.

Do you actually consider China to be Communist?

Provost Harrison · January 9, 2003, 18:47

Hungary in 1956 is a very interesting 'what ifs' until their revolution was crushed by the Soviets. That's what the degenerated workers state of the Soviet Union's view on proletarian revolution is, quite clearly. The Soviet Union wanted dominance and control and that spreading of the revolution was seen as dangerous to them now. Why Leon Trotsky wound up dead...

Bereta_Eder · January 9, 2003, 18:47

Russia, actually.
I was talking about the USSR

Bereta_Eder · January 9, 2003, 18:49

And yes China IS communist.

All it has to do is to dont let those clusters or coccoons of rampant "capitalistic" activity get out of control.

Because if communism goes there (at least suddendly), a LOT of people are going to suffer.

Its GDP growth out the whole world ro shame in 2002. (Mainly thanks to said clusters)

Provost Harrison · January 9, 2003, 18:49

Well the beginnings of the USSR are interesting, but it certainly underwent a 'baptism of fire'. And Starchild's example of the Paris Commune is a good one too...

Graag · January 9, 2003, 18:50

Quote:

The chez republic, slovenia and even hungary are more advanced than "capitalistic" states who have been "free" for years.

If understand this statement you are saying the contries you mentioned are examples of communism working. Have you been to Budapest? All those people sleeping in the streets, the countless disabled beggars and drunken old men shouting obsenities (at least thats what it sounded like to me) didn't seem to me like they were to pleased with the arrangement.

Imran Siddiqui · January 9, 2003, 18:52

Quote:

Russia, actually.
I was talking about the USSR

Russia, 3rd World? You are mad, aren't you? They were progressing very well. Look at the steel and coal extraction rates before WW1. Russia was on of the great powers in the European system. Hardly 3rd world.

---

If you think China is communist you have an interesting view of communism.

Bereta_Eder · January 9, 2003, 18:56

Greeg, countries that have more economic prosperity than "free" countries have now. After them being through communism and others that have not.
Talking about coutnries like Checia and Slovenia mainly.

Imran, definitely a 3rd world country not least for its living conditions. Taken to superpower status in 70 years using communism (with methods not so good in times)

If you think China is not, then you're the funny one.

Tripledoc · January 9, 2003, 18:59

I know there is the protestant sect the Huttites in Canada. They somewhat resemble the Amish but are less austere. They employ technology and do indeed use it profusely - very often of the most modern type. They live in colonies of 60 people or so sharing all property and work, making a living of agriculture and small crafts. When the colony reaches 120 people or so they split into two equal groups by lottery, one part leaving and forming a new colony.
They originally lived in Germany in the 16th century but were cought up in the religious wars and fled to Austria, from there to yuguslavia and Russia and finally to Canada.
The Canadian government once refused them to form new colonies but now they are allowed to do so again.

Graag · January 9, 2003, 19:00

China seems to me to be your bog-standard dictatorship. They have pretty much free enterprise - at least as free as any number of non-communist states.

Flatlander Fox · January 9, 2003, 19:00

Yugoslavia had a decent form of Communism working our for them (As best as it can work out).

Communism is the Utopia of idealists and potheads...

It won't EVER work, due to human nature.

[Mr. Obvious Mode Off]

Bereta_Eder · January 9, 2003, 19:02

Quote:

Originally posted by Graag
China seems to me to be your bog-standard dictatorship. They have pretty much free enterprise - at least as free as any number of non-communist states.

Their structure is pretty much communist.
Free enterprise is allowed in clusters, in controlled "bubbles" of free economic activity which they try to control. (not let a spil over get out of hand for example)

monkspider · January 9, 2003, 19:16

Imran-Their progress in primitive industrialization notwithstanding, the levels of the living standards, lack of infastructure, and remnants of the feudal system made them very much a third world nation. Pre-Soviet Russia is almost universally considered a third world level nation by historians. Of course, after communism was overthrown, Russia went right back into the third-world, with collapsing living standards and rampant unemployment and so forth. (1) Which is something you're not supposed to say, incidentally, but it's true if you look at the record.

In regards to the original question, naturally one must ask how do you define "worked". But the 1871 Paris Commune, the Shanghai commune (2), pre-Stalin USSR, various south american governments (such as the sandinistas) all give one glimpses of a functional, democratic Communist system.

(1)http://www.datacom.bg/nbgen/document25.doc
(2)http://www.workers.org/marcy/china/4.html

Zero · January 9, 2003, 19:19

Has there ever been a working communist society?

Yes. Depending on your view there are 2. Families and Churches. Now if you don't think Church community is what you call a success, then there's only one

orange · January 9, 2003, 19:19

but the USSR went to superpower status and then fell from it. Yes, it had a bit to do with Gorby's reforms...but it was either that way or a harsher one...it was bound to crumble eventually.

orange · January 9, 2003, 19:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Calc II
Has there ever been a working communist society?

Yes. Depending on your view there are 2. Families and Churches. Now if you don't think Church community is what you call a success, then there's only one

These are HARDLY communist. One is headed by a father and mother (in some countries just a father, and arguably in some cases just the mother) and has a built in heirarchy based on age or position of birth. The other is a monarchy, ruled by the supposed largest and most impressive King to ever rule.

Imran Siddiqui · January 9, 2003, 19:21

Quote:

Imran-Their progress in primitive industrialization notwithstanding, the levels of the living standards, lack of infastructure, and remnants of the feudal system made them very much a third world nation.

One problem. Colonial powers CANNOT, by definition, be 3rd World Countries.

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Pre-Soviet Russia is almost universally considered a third world level nation by historians.

Really? Well looks like the historians I was taught by weren't part of the universal

.

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Of course, after communism was overthrown, Russia went right back into the third-world, with collapsing living standards and rampant unemployment and so forth.

Another thing you aren't supposed to say (well to leftists), the USSR never really had high living standards and their economy was always a mess, inefficient as anything that has probably ever existed. India had a better economy than the USSR did, if you look at the unsealed records, of course.

Bereta_Eder · January 9, 2003, 19:24

The living conditions of the Soviets compared to the people under the tsarist Russia cannot be compared.