January 10, 2003, 01:43
|
#61
|
Emperor
Local Time: 09:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: flying too low to the ground
Posts: 4,625
|
What really pisses me off, is that communism has never been given a valid "field test", America always seems to go out of it's way to mess up any chance communism ever had. Can you name a communist country that has existed that America did not attack, sanction, etc?
__________________
"I've lived too long with pain. I won't know who I am without it. We have to leave this place, I am almost happy here."
- Ender, from Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card
|
|
|
|
January 10, 2003, 01:44
|
#62
|
Local Time: 10:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: on the corner of Peachtree and Peachtree
Posts: 30,698
|
Well when just about all of them have as their goal the destruction of capitalism and capitalist states, can you blame the US?
__________________
“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
|
|
|
|
January 10, 2003, 01:47
|
#63
|
Warlord
Local Time: 10:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 234
|
Quote:
|
I'd say true communism has never existed except on small scale 'utopias'
|
While not communism, socialism has worked on the very small scale (in the hundreds to a few thousand) in kbbutzim - but those are carefully maintaied (ie, entering individuals are screen to make sure they agree with the principles of the kibbutz and are willing to work for the community). In addition, these tend to work in conjunction with a certain amount of capatalism (ie, sell the goods it makes to the community outside the kibbutz), so it's not true socialism (but worth mentioning)
|
|
|
|
January 10, 2003, 01:47
|
#64
|
King
Local Time: 10:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,920
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Well when just about all of them have as their goal the destruction of capitalism and capitalist states, can you blame the US?
|
Yeah, because 1) not all have those goals and 2) the US explicitly stated its goal as the containment of communism. In no way can you say that the US was acting "defensively" in every situation.
__________________
"The French caused the war [Persian Gulf war, 1991]" - Ned
"you people who bash Bush have no appreciation for one of the great presidents in our history." - Ned
"I wish I had gay sex in the boy scouts" - Dissident
|
|
|
|
January 10, 2003, 01:49
|
#65
|
Emperor
Local Time: 09:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: flying too low to the ground
Posts: 4,625
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Well when just about all of them have as their goal the destruction of capitalism and capitalist states, can you blame the US?
|
does cuba really pose such a threat today, in all honesty? do we still have to supress what could eb a beautiful sociocultural revoluition?
i'd say korea or nam and the wars, but that was cold war-ish. we were afraid then.
__________________
"I've lived too long with pain. I won't know who I am without it. We have to leave this place, I am almost happy here."
- Ender, from Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card
|
|
|
|
January 10, 2003, 01:55
|
#66
|
Local Time: 10:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: on the corner of Peachtree and Peachtree
Posts: 30,698
|
Quote:
|
Yeah, because 1) not all have those goals and 2) the US explicitly stated its goal as the containment of communism. In no way can you say that the US was acting "defensively" in every situation.
|
If they didn't have those goals then they weren't communist.
The US was basically acting defensive, when a group wants to destroy you, and you attempt to subvert them you are taking preemptive action. I support all the actions against Communist countries carried out by the US.
__________________
“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
|
|
|
|
January 10, 2003, 02:16
|
#67
|
Prince
Local Time: 09:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 300
|
Capitalism was never given a "valid field test" either. But capitalism is working a lot better, on average, than communism.
__________________
Poor silly humans. A temporarily stable pattern of matter and energy stumbles upon self-cognizance for a moment, and suddenly it thinks the whole universe was created for its benefit. -- mbelleroff
|
|
|
|
January 10, 2003, 02:20
|
#68
|
Emperor
Local Time: 09:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: flying too low to the ground
Posts: 4,625
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by ranskaldan
Capitalism was never given a "valid field test" either. But capitalism is working a lot better, on average, than communism.
|
how do you figure?
capitialism is considered the dominant economic force in the world, it has basis in our biology / evolution, and it thrives on greed. as far as i can see, capitialism has been given a "valid field test", or at the very least, a much more hospitible one than that of communism.
__________________
"I've lived too long with pain. I won't know who I am without it. We have to leave this place, I am almost happy here."
- Ender, from Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card
|
|
|
|
January 10, 2003, 02:26
|
#69
|
Prince
Local Time: 09:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 300
|
Capitalism grew out of an inhospitable feudal system. It has weathered revolutions, Depressions, and various sane and insane leaders. And if communism hasn't been giving a fair test because capitalism was trying to undermine it, then the reverse applies too.
Hence it is capitalism that has "out-evolved" all the other systems, and continues to thrive today.
__________________
Poor silly humans. A temporarily stable pattern of matter and energy stumbles upon self-cognizance for a moment, and suddenly it thinks the whole universe was created for its benefit. -- mbelleroff
|
|
|
|
January 10, 2003, 02:44
|
#70
|
Emperor
Local Time: 09:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: flying too low to the ground
Posts: 4,625
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by ranskaldan
Capitalism grew out of an inhospitable feudal system. It has weathered revolutions, Depressions, and various sane and insane leaders. And if communism hasn't been giving a fair test because capitalism was trying to undermine it, then the reverse applies too.
Hence it is capitalism that has "out-evolved" all the other systems, and continues to thrive today.
|
but communism wasn't the norm undermining the revolutionary. when the major world powers are capitialist, and most of them go out of their way to screw up communist states, it's certainly not fair.
i just laughed in my head because that statement sounds like i think some form of international politics is fair
__________________
"I've lived too long with pain. I won't know who I am without it. We have to leave this place, I am almost happy here."
- Ender, from Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card
|
|
|
|
January 10, 2003, 11:12
|
#71
|
Deity
Local Time: 22:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
Posts: 14,606
|
Re: Re: Part 1.
Quote:
|
Originally posted by The Vagabond
Masses of people was not sufficient, as the examples of India and China show.
|
And General Winter too, of course.
__________________
(\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
(='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
(")_(") "Starting the fire from within."
|
|
|
|
January 10, 2003, 11:17
|
#72
|
Deity
Local Time: 22:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
Posts: 14,606
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by ranskaldan
Capitalism grew out of an inhospitable feudal system. It has weathered revolutions, Depressions, and various sane and insane leaders. And if communism hasn't been giving a fair test because capitalism was trying to undermine it, then the reverse applies too.
Hence it is capitalism that has "out-evolved" all the other systems, and continues to thrive today.
|
In what sense? Really there is no pure capitalism per se in operation. In fact, some European countries are highly socialistic.
Without socialistic measures, there wouldn't be a single "capitalistic" country now. So in essence, socialism won out, by subverting capitalism.
__________________
(\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
(='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
(")_(") "Starting the fire from within."
|
|
|
|
January 10, 2003, 11:23
|
#73
|
Emperor
Local Time: 14:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Taste of Japan
Posts: 9,611
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
In what sense? Really there is no pure capitalism per se in operation. In fact, some European countries are highly socialistic.
Without socialistic measures, there wouldn't be a single "capitalistic" country now. So in essence, socialism won out, by subverting capitalism.
|
That's sad.
__________________
“As a lifelong member of the Columbia Business School community, I adhere to the principles of truth, integrity, and respect. I will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do.”
Civ V Civilization V Civ5 CivV Civilization 5 Civ 5 - Do your part!
|
|
|
|
January 11, 2003, 19:08
|
#74
|
King
Local Time: 09:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Wichita
Posts: 1,352
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by Graag
I dislike quoting myself, but I would very much like to hear a communists comment on this.
|
You could very well be right here Graag. That doesn't, however, make the Commie movement worthless. Quite on the contrary, we are providing people with information that can help more people reach this higher stage of evolution in a more timely manner.
__________________
http://monkspider.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
|
January 11, 2003, 20:23
|
#75
|
Emperor
Local Time: 09:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: flying too low to the ground
Posts: 4,625
|
just thought i'd slap this in here for kicks.
it was well-conceived in theory but it doesn't work in life.
comrade has to wonder, is it ever worth the effort?
well i don't know but i've been told not to hang on to my hope.
i don't know but i've been told and i've been listening all my life.
if you're ever less than certain about the world,
please don't let the worry make its way into your work.
and if you would stick up for me in the face of some adversity,
know that i would only do the same.
'cause it was well-conceived in theory but it doesn't work in life.
but me i will not write it off not ever having tried.
well i don't know but i've been told not to hang on to my hope;
well i don't know but i've been told but these are lies and they get old.
look me in the eyes underexpanding winter skies
you'll find a feeling there that never knows the cold...
look me in the eyes and the skeptic in me dies -
the skeptic is a fool, we are exceptions to the rule,
'cause this is our land, this is our land, i will cross it holding your hand;
from krasnayarsk to moscow we will not be turned away;
this is our land this is our land i will cross it holding your hand -
in the crooked streets of petersburg, we are all the same.
if you're ever less than certain about the world,
please don't let the worry make its way into your work;
and if you would stick up for me in the face of great adversity,
know that i would do the same, know we are the same.
if you would stick up for me speak kindly and poetically;
you can be my personal ambassador to the world.
and if you're ever less than certain, i will be your iron curtain,
i will be your berlin wall, and i will never fall.
-Soltero: Communist Love Song
__________________
"I've lived too long with pain. I won't know who I am without it. We have to leave this place, I am almost happy here."
- Ender, from Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card
|
|
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is On
|
|
|
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:04.
|
|