When and why to hurry the production?

[cumi]

Hi,

I started this topic, because would like to know from you, if you are ever hurring the production. I think buying improvements or units can be very important in the beginning of the game. This way you can be faster than your opponents. But is it worth to sacrifice your people? Any tipp, strategy is welcome here.

Yes, and my second question is (maybe its very stupid, but): what do you need to be able to pay for hurring and not to sacrifice people? And in the beginning, when you have to give people for hurrying, how is calculated the number of citizens you need. Sometimes it is 1 or 2, sometimes it say it can not hurry, but city is about 5 big.

[Dominae]

cumi, poprushing works as follows. First you need to count up the number of Shields remaining to complete a unit or improvement. Say you're play a non-Militaristic civ, so take a 40-Shield Barracks, for example. Every citizen contributes 20 Shields to the rushing of an improvement or unit. So rushing the Barracks from scratch costs 2 pop points. If you were to wait until the Barracks were half done (20 Shields produced from working tiles), rushing the Barracks would only cost 1 pop point.

It is thus highly recommended that you always poprush when the number of Shields you have left is a multiple of 20 (since you will not be wasting any Shields). This requires keeping a close eye on your production development.

But there's a catch: in any given turn, you can only sacrifice up to half your population to poprush. So, if your city is only size 3, you could not poprush a Barracks from scratch. Also remember that poprushing makes your remaining citizens unhappy, so it is not possible to rush Spearmen after Spearmen in one single town.

Poprushing is a great tool for the despot. My own favorite uses are Temples when playing Religious civs, and units when I'm going on a major offensive.

Hope this helps.


Dominae

[cumi]

Dominae, thank you for the explanation, it will help me a lot. Actually I would like to know, how do you know all this. I am an old civ3 player/fan/fanatic, but few things are still mysterious for me. Where can I found some references about the game? You can also find some my older thread about the luxuries. Sometimes I really need informations like this...I am playing only on max 3 level of difficulty (i want to have fun), but maybe once i will also have fun on deity?

One more question: What do I need for gold-rush and not poprush? I don't know when and why am I starting to pay gold for hurring and not pop sacrifice...

Thanks for help

[Tattila the Hun]

Depends on the government, despot and commie whips his people, demo, repu and monarch pay them. In anarchy one can not rush. Also, you cannot rush wonders, even the small ones. (Naturally)

[theNiceOne]

Dominae: Poprushing don't make the remaining citizens unhappy, it makes one citizen unhappy for each citizen you rushed. So if you have a size 3 city and rush <= 20 shields, only one of your two remaining citizens becomes unhappy. Then if you have temple/military police etc. this unhappy citizen can become content/happy as usual. It remains unhappy for 20 turns, before the rush unhappiness disappears.

cumi: gold/pop rush is decided by government type. Despotism and communism use pop-rush while monarchy, republic and democracy use gold to rush improvements. This is one of the very few reasons to stay in despotism after you discovered other government types: if you need to rush but don't have money.

You find things like this by reading the manual (I think the pop/gold vs. government is found there), by reading the civilopedia, but most of all by reading the forum here and on CFC.

[Dominae]

theNiceOne, thanks for catching that.

cumi, a great place to find answers to all your questions is right here on 'Poly. Just do searches on these forums for your specific questions, and you'll find explanations and strategy galore. Have fun.


Dominae

[DaveMcW]

Things that I like to rush:

Granary in my +5 food capitol
Temples in very corrupt cities
Horsemen in very corrupt cities

Afterr the early granary, I avoid rushing in my core cities. It's better to spend extra food on workers there.

[Arrian]

Temples in corrupt cities, when you are playing a religious civ, are the easiest. Build city, wait 10 turns, poprush. Presto, temple.

I often rush spearmen in captured cities when warring in the ancient era. It kills off foreign population (thus reducing the chance of a flip), and provides defense for the city so most of my units can move on.

Once I'm out of Despotism, I will spend gold rushing just about anything that I think will provide a long term benifit. It isn't a scientific process. A lot of rush gold goes to courthouses, both because I expect to recoup a lot of the money that way, and because I hate corruption.

Other common rush builds are aqueducts & marketplaces. Markets usually in order to get the city into "We Love the ___ Day" and aqueducts because growth is good. Later, when dealing with cities I've "liberated" on other continents, of course harbors, walls, barracks, airports.

Most of my rushbuying is done in highly corrupt cities. Productive cities can build things fast enough on their own, and you will end up spending a lot of cash to save a couple of turns. If a city is producing 20 shields/turn, and is 40 shields short, you will have to spend 160 gold to save 2 turns. If, however, a city is producing 2 shields/turn, and is 40 shields short, you will spend 160 gold to save 20 turns of production. Especially if the thing you're buying will reduce corruption in the city (either directly, via a courthouse or police station, or indirectly, via triggering WLT_D), it's far more useful in the corrupt town.

-Arrian

[joncnunn]

Under Despotism, usally the only thing I'll pop-rush is a Temple. (Usully when it has exactly 20 shields remaining.)

As far rushing with cash, I almost always rush Temples post-change out of Desptotism after 1 turn normal build.

I have a designated time period of cash rushing almost all Court Houses along with the improvements that due to my traights I'd rush first ini that game. (Either late ancient era or early middle ages depending upon military needs)

After the Court House rush period, the next imporvement that gets rushed everywhere is the Market Place.

I often rush Aquaducts after the city has a Temple and either a Market Place or Catherdrial.

I also cash rush culture improvements in boarder cities.

Neccesitys for the future FP city are also rushed.

Conquered cities in the middle ages usually see many improvements rushed to get them up to the level as the rest of the empire.

Conquered cities in the industrial & modern era usually only get happiness & growth improvements rushed.

[Dominae]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Factories yet. Upon entering the Industrial age, I try to prebuild Factories in all my core cities. When Industrialization comes around, there are typically still quite a few turns left to their completion (since they're the most expensive non-improvement Wonder thus far). A bunch of stockpiled gold is a godsend, boosting my production usually before the AI gets the chance. Thus, ensuring that I have around a 3-4k treasury at the end of the Medieval age has become standard in my games.


Dominae

[Beta]

There was a great post and thread - by absimiliard - dated 20-11-2001 - titled The economics of food velocity in a Despotism.

I have a hard copy index of the old strategy threads - but can't find the thread via a search. It was here in the civ3 strategy forum. If someone can find it -and post the thread link - great.

It quantified nicely pop-rushing in the early game, and when it made sense to do it and when it didn't. It was essentially a function of how much food a city produced relative to its population. Strong growth cities - and I believe he defined that as an excess of 3 food or higher - were the prime candidates for pop-rushing.

[Bluefrog]

Also worth noting is that you should avoid like the plague rushing anything from scratch. If you have no shields in the build box, the cost of rushing is doubled. This is true for pop- and cash-rushing.

And I've gotta change my Avatar. I picked it a long time ago, and haven't really posted until recently...people will think I'm copying ol' Dom, hehe.

[Dominae]

Bluefrog, no worries, I was just planning to put up my own custom avatar. Now I just have to find something cool...


Dominae

[Arrian]

BetaHound,

That thread is probably out of date, since the poprushing rules have changed.

Poprushing used to be a lot more powerful, in that you got 40 shields out of the 1st unit of population used up, and the unhappiness effect wasn't working properly either.

-Arrian

[joncnunn]

Cities that can't produce Factories in a resonable timeframe without rushing are exactly the cities that get the least benifit from having a Factory.

[Dominae]

joncnunn, "reasonable timeframe" is a very loose term. Depending on the specific tiles available, very few cities can produce Factories fast enough that they would not benefit from a bit of rushing. Factory prebuilds are not easy, because you need many uncompleted Wonders (and the Palace, of course). So it is very difficult to finish Factories in cities on the turn Industrialization comes around. In my games there is usually 5-10 turns left in most core cities. I will rush those at the first opportunity. Each of them will definitely benefit.


Dominae

[realpolitic]

Whenever you pop rush you'll be losing the future production from those citizens who die. In order to make most poprushing useful, your goals have to be very short term. The builds mentioned above are sometimes candidates, and if you absolutely need culture a scientific civ MIGHT rush a library. I sometimes fight a first war, come close to a capitol, sign a peace traty, and rushbuild culture to keep from losing cities.

[Bluefrog]

Originally posted by realpolitic
Whenever you pop rush you'll be losing the future production from those citizens who die. In order to make most poprushing useful, your goals have to be very short term. The builds mentioned above are sometimes candidates, and if you absolutely need culture a scientific civ MIGHT rush a library. I sometimes fight a first war, come close to a capitol, sign a peace traty, and rushbuild culture to keep from losing cities.

Actually, if I'm playing a scientific civ, I'll make a point to rush libraries in border towns as soon as I can, usually with gold-rush. This grows your borders fast, and also makes the cities less likely to flip to an enemy.

[Arrian]

Dominae,

I typically don't do much factory rushing. I'll use anything I can find as a shield-holder (a palace, sometimes an army if I have the Mil Academy, often Cavalry in other cities), and that cuts down on the build time. I will rushbuy a factory if I anticipate any real competition for the industrial wonders (Univ Suff, ToE, Hoover), so I can get going.

But by and large, my core cities build their factories normally. I am rarely fighting a major war at that time... and if I am, I have a big advantage (Cav vs. Muskets or something like that). Thus, I can afford to take the time to build the factories normally, while using my cash to keep a 4 or 5 turn/tech pace going.

I can think of a recent game (didn't finish it) as Carthage where I probably should have rushed my factories. Commercial, while still a weak trait, does indeed make you rich. Wow. With a 16-city empire on a normal map/8 civs (I didn't fire a shot for the whole game, and have reached the mid-industrial age), I built up (without really meaning to) $6,000+ in my treasury, while gaining a tech lead (Monarch level). Yeesh. Some of that had to do with having almost no military for a loooooong time, but still, wow!

It's actually a perfect setup for a knock down, drag out industrial war (which some people seem to like... I'm not a huge fan). There are 5 other civs on my continent, and 4 of them are pretty evenly matched (France, Babylon, England!, Ottomans) and the 5th (China) isn't too weak. France & the Babs have a MPP. England and the Ottomans have a MPP. Germany, across the ocean, has just wiped out Russia. They are backward and are in possession of a couple of luxuries and resources I want. The Dark Side calls. But, if one were to NOT go after them, the home continent could get really interesting.

But I digress.

-Arrian

[Dominae]

Uh-oh, I feeling another disagreement on par with the "early Culture" question coming on.

I also try to prebuild as many factories as I can. My point above is just that Factories cost so much that you can only prebuild them up to a point. If you time it well, the Factories should be more than half done by the time you get Industrialization. This puts them well within the "I can afford to rush that" range.

For me, the question of whether to build a Factory in a city is related to: "Will I build things in this city, and, more importantly, will they be useful to me?". In all my games, the answer is 'yes' for all my core cities. Going along with my "right now" mentality, I can usually put immediate Factories too good use in those 6 or so turns where I would otherwise still be building them. Usually with Factories, I can get the 45 Shields required for 2-turn Infantry, so 6 turns = 3 Infantry per city.

Clearly if you're already dominating with Cavalry against Musketmen, you may not have much use for Infantry. But in those games that I actually do finish (we seem to have the same problem in this regard), I find that an early Industrial age force is a must. Although you mght think you have the game in hand because you're 4 techs ahead (and you very well might), actually finishing the game is another matter entirely. AU203 is an example of this: I'm around 6 techs ahead, but dominating the world will still require some effort. On the other hand, in any game where victory is far from secured at the beginning of the Industrial age, I will spare no expense on Factories.


Dominae

[Arrian]

I agree that if you really feel you need the productive capacity more than the money, rushbuying factories makes sense.

Another reason I think I generally am not in a huge rush (heh) do get the factories built (though I do beeline for industrialization, of course) is because of the long period of time in the industrial age between infantry and tanks... where there isn't (OR RATHER WASN'T*) much to build but units.

* - Hmm... however, with the addition of stock exchanges & commercial docks... there is more stuff to build. **Arrian ponders a change in priorities**

-Arrian

[Dominae]

Yup, Stock Exchanges and Commercial Docks are great to have up and running fast (combine with Smith's...ahh).

I have to admit that my opinion regarding Factories is somewhat biased by the AU mod. With 8-power Infantry, military campaigns are a real possibility between Replaceable Parts and Tanks. Set up some nice defensive positions and add a whole bunch of Artillery, and you've got a war of attrition the AI rarely wins.


Dominae

[Beta]

Originally posted by Arrian
BetaHound,

That thread is probably out of date, since the poprushing rules have changed.

Poprushing used to be a lot more powerful, in that you got 40 shields out of the 1st unit of population used up, and the unhappiness effect wasn't working properly either.

-Arrian

Arrian, Thanks!

Yes - you are probably right about the thread. I hadn't thought about the changes.

And yes, you are definitely right that it has changed the conclusions. What I liked about it was the methodology he used in determining when it made 'economic' sense to do it. Game situation still has to be taken into consideration and will likely dictate in most cases, but it was nice to have an 'all things being equal' way of looking at it.

Hmmm ... maybe someone should revisit and rewrite that post.

[BRC]

I just thought I'd throw this out there.

On Regent and even sometimes on Monarch, I had success fighting early wars to extort tech, and saving money, so that I could rush libraries at the beginning of the medievil ages. Coupled with a Golden Age, and my huge treasury, I was able to research all the techs with wonders, before the AI could. Somewhere between the Hanging Gardens and Leo's, I would break the AI's cascades, and then building the rest of the wonders was a cinch. The reason that it was important to research was so that you would be able to start pre-builds earlier than the AI's, and make them eat the shields that they had been saving. I don't think that this works any higher than Monarch, and even not all the time, but it is something to think about. Other than that I will pop-rush temples if I am religious, and courthouses and other things in halfway corrupt cities. I'm going to have to look at rushing Factories.

[Arrian]

Betahound,

Yeah, it would be interesting to see a cost-benifit analysis of poprushing with the new rules. I'm not the type to do it, though. I tend to do it based on feel, and leave it at that.

I'm sure, however, that the basic issues will come up in the PTW Demo Game we're both involved in. Each team will have to decide whether or not to poprush and, if so, when and where to do it. Given the level of debate GS has had so far about every other possible topic, I'm sure we'll do some sort of analysis of poprushing to determine whether or not it's a good idea. Maybe after the game is over that information can be offered to the general public.

One of the key factors that makes early poprushing (things like temples) worth it or not worth it is corruption, which is tough to gauge (unless you're alexman). New cities are often 1-shield towns until they hit pop2 or 3. Blowing a pop point in a city that can be made relatively productive relatively soon (heh, notice how exact I am about this) is counterproductive. OTOH, a city that won't be productive for some time should use its population (its only asset) by poprushing something cultural and then building workers for a while.

My use of rushing tends to reverse itself as the game progresses: early on, I poprush temples in border towns and spearmen in captured cities. Once I switch over to a rushbuying government, I will concentrate on the "inbetween" towns. Towns which will be productive once they have the proper development. I may rush something in the core, but typically only if I'm racing to build wonders but my best wonder-builder really, really, really needs that library. Normally, paying a ton of money to speed a library by 4 turns or so wouldn't be my choice, but if I know that the city in question will then be spending 30 turns or so building a wonder (and thus cannot build the library until after that's done), it's really shaving 34 turns off of the library construction, isn't it? Then towards the end of the game, my rushing returns to the fringe: cities overseas and such.

-Arrian

[Dominae]

Different but related topic:

Playing AU203, it is surprising to see how weak poprushing is under Communism compared to Despotism. Since all your cities are mildly productive under Communism, you always want your cities to stay big in order to get a chance at a few extra Shields. Poprushing works against this. Most small improvements can be completed in a normal amount of turns (8-10 turns for a Library in a captured city, etc.), so poprushing those seems a waste. But the big improvements (Factories, especially) cost so many Shields that you'll never "rush" them in a reasonable timeframe. For real rushing, Gold is far better in the later eras. Currently in AU203, I'm stuck at around 8000 Gold after MA upgrades, and I have nothing to do with it!


Dominae

[Nor Me]

Originally posted by Dominae
Currently in AU203, I'm stuck at around 8000 Gold after MA upgrades, and I have nothing to do with it!

You don't need NMD yet? Elite spies ought to be useful. I've used Steal Military Plans effectively before large 1 turn strikes.

When a conscript MI can be disbanded for 27 shields, poprushing is always inefficient. I was going to suggest paid labour for Communism for the AU MOD but it goes against the spirit of Communism and doesn't help the AI. It would help Communism in the one use I've found for it: the industrial age REX.

[Beta]

Originally posted by Arrian
Given the level of debate GS has had so far about every other possible topic,

Arrian ... I know what you mean and there are only six of us on Vox. I can imagine what it must be like at your end.

Great post above, by the way. And that is essentially how I play the game as well - more by feel. You need to know the mechanics and cost-benefits (I think I have read everything Vel and you and the others have ever written ten times over - but after that - it comes down to situation, timing, experience, and intuition.

Cheers! Beta.

PS - I'm Apolyton's rep for the proposed inter-site PTW match against 1BC, CivFanatics, etc. I have posted a thread - Apolyton's Reputation... in the Demo Game forum. We could certainly use some of the talent from GS and the other teams. Can you and the others take a boo, please, and if interested, post in the thread. Thanks!

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Nor Me
You don't need NMD yet? Elite spies ought to be useful. I've used Steal Military Plans effectively before large 1 turn strikes.

NMD?

I toyed briefly with the Espionage screen, but my game is all but over now. I spy on their troops when I meet them on the battefield!

When a conscript MI can be disbanded for 27 shields, poprushing is always inefficient.

Hm, didn't know that. Another one of those things that is optimal but adds tedium to the game.

[Nor Me]

Originally posted by Dominae
NMD?

SDI? You won't need it if you've already won.

Hm, didn't know that. Another one of those things that is optimal but adds tedium to the game.

It beats buying caravans one row at a time.