whats the best group?

weird god · October 30, 2000, 21:25

i guess, it isn´t the first time this question is asked, and of course all have there + and - and SE can change it all. but to me, as a newbie in AC, it seems the univercity, santiago (for they have a straight strat) and deidre - i like these mind-worms which are monsters in the early game are a good choice......
what about you?

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mankind made alcohol, god made weed.....whom do you trust?

weird god, chief of EUROPA

Simpson II · October 31, 2000, 06:52

Hi Weird God,

Welcome to the AC forums! I think you'll find it easier to rise to the top of gameleague playing AC than Civ. Just win one game.

At least in SMAC (not X) I would say the factions are pretty well balanced. The best players mostly seem to like the PKs and Gaians, take that as you will. Santiago is on many lists as the worst faction, though I think that's because they don't realize the benefits of Elite troops, or how reasonable she can be as a hybrid.

Personally, assuming transcend level, I'd say the University. Their extra drone at size four only counts if there are any content citizens, it doesn't create rowdy drones. However, if you have any specialists, or if you expand aggressively, then the first citizen is a drone regardless and their happiness is completely nominal. The only other downside is the probe score, which is 'masked' by running knowledge. So they have no real disadvantages but huge advantages as a builder, can play hybrid quite well because getting the conquer techs doesn't put them behind in builder techs, and when they get Doc:AP they can launch a devestating and effectively unstopable air-assault aided by nerve-gas. Plus, they can produce their first impact rover only a few turns after the Spartans.

Not that many agree with me, though.

mark13 · October 31, 2000, 09:37

Hi, welcome!

quote:

I think you'll find it easier to rise to the top of gameleague playing AC than Civ. Just win one game.

....which is more than I've managed to do so far....

I'll say this straight off - I don't like Santiago. Why is this? Well, it's probably because I like to think of myself more as a builder than a fighter, and Santiago is just too slow a starter for me. The -1 Industry hurts a lot, not letting you get your colony pods out straight away, which can be a severe early game handicap....

....but to succeed, Santiago really needs to use her technological edge over the other momentum factions. Because she can prototype units for free, you can use any new weapon which you discover straight away. This can be a huge advantage when it comes to attacking lesser powers, such as the Believers, or the Hive. The morale bcomes a bit of a non-issue later on, as most factions can easily produce elite units anyway with High Morale special ability.

The University. They are a Builder/Hybrid faction, who are the best in the game bar none at tech discovery, but can also fight, where their tech advantage comes in handy. However, probe wars aren't their strong point, so stationing a probe team in each base is often a good idea (unless you have the HSA, which you really should). Their economy is often below average (certainly for a Builder) because of their apparent obsession with technological advance.

Deirdre....a very nice little faction, who really come into their own regarding pod popping early on. Mind worms can be very useful as a counter-play against someone with a tech advantage. But in regular combat, the morale hurts, as it is that much harder to get troops up to elite status. Also, the lack of FM can seriously hamper her economy in mid-game, resulting in slower tech discveries. They are, very much, a Hybrid faction, but not a particularly good one, in my view. Still, many people disagree....

The Peacekeepers are pretty much average. Their only disadvantage is their -1 efficiency, which can be easily overcome with creches and democracy, when it comes up. However, they have several extremely useful social advantages. The best of these is his double votes. Being Planetary Governor is a huge advantage, two reasons - extra trade windfall, and an infiltrator in every faction.

Secondly, they can exceed pop limits by 2. This can buy you extra time to get a hab complex up - don't discount the use of this in tech stag/blind research games.

Also, an extra talent, making it easier to a) control drones, and b) get into golden ages. Golden ages, of course, will give you an extra +1 econ, which takes you to the coveted +2 if you are running wealth, and also +2 growth, which can aid pop booming.

So my favourite faction in original SMAC is probably the Peacekeepers, for those reasons.

weird god · October 31, 2000, 18:43

thx for your opinions

------------------
mankind made alcohol, god made weed.....whom do you trust?

weird god, chief of EUROPA

mark13 · October 31, 2000, 19:17

I'm curious though, why are the Spartans so popular? Is it their military bonus early on (it is quite easy to match with other factions later on)? Is it the free prototypes, which, OK, can be handy, but the industry bonus automatically offsets it, it would seem. So, come on, all you Santiago fanatics, how do you play them, why are they so good?

HolyWarrior · November 1, 2000, 00:59

If you absolutely want to kick ass in AC, play the Believers! +2 support means you can crank out the military early and blitzkreig. Once you go fundy you're immune to probe teams. Plus you have +25% combat bonus.
If you're worried about inability to research, you just don't get it. What did I tell you about the +2 support and +25% attack? Make Zakharov your puppet and there's no problem. Or send waves of probe teams to liberate research.
In short, the Believers, played right, will eat the Spartans for breakfast. The Brainiacs are too busy fiddling with labs to build a military. The Gaian mindworms can be trouble, but if that happens, just go green and you'll be ok.
And for the Hive...DIE COMMIE BASTARD! DIE YANG DIE!

Misotu · November 1, 2000, 01:18

Mark: Although my favourite faction is the PKs, I like the Gaians a lot. Your overview of them omitted just one small thing ... +2 efficiency.

It means they can run Planned without suffering. And they can expand productively, maintaining a superb research rate and good economy over many bases and lots of territory ...

I think it was significant that when Vel and Zsozso were choosing factions for the Dominus Transcendii challenge, they both wanted UoP but both were prepared to settle for the Gaians ... As far as I'm concerned, they are a superb builder faction.

Garth Vader · November 1, 2000, 01:29

My favorite faction is the Hive. If you run Police State, Planned, Wealth you get +3 industry, +2 support, +3 growth and +2 police. Your only negatives are -1 economy and -2 morale.

I usually find that I run out of things to build pretty fast with that kind of industry. Projects are easy to pick up and with that kind of producing speed you can build infrastructure and run a war at the same time. The -2 morale is a pain but easily overcome with numbers.

But then I am an industry fanatic

Same thing with support, which is essentially industry as well.

RedFred · November 1, 2000, 04:59

Well I don't know. I've heard cuts off the new U2 album and I fear they have become mere parodies of their former selves. Kind of like the Stones have, only not as bad. But Massive Attack's last album was terrific and I am kind of warming to Morcheeba and a group called File (with an acute accent on the "e").

Whazzat?

Group? Oh! Did you mean faction?

There are two ways to decide on the best factions. One is to read opinions from different people, but the better way is to give them all an honest try and decide that way. Some factions will seem easier for you than others. But these are not necessarily the same ones that other players favour. Heaven forbid, you will even find defenders of the Believers and the Data Angels on these boards.

I am a big fan of random faction games with random opponents, but I admit to restarting now and then if I get the Believers or the Aliens. For me at least, these are not factions that I have as much fun with as the others.

Do you like role-playing games, weird god? If so, try playing a faction that you feel most closely matches your own personality. Personally, it used to be when I was in a constructive mood I'd be most likely to play a Gaian game and if I was in a destructive mood I'd often pick the Hive. But now with SMACX, I find that the Cult is even more fun than the Hive. But playing other factions helps keep the game fresh for me.

Helium Pond · November 1, 2000, 05:47

The Believers really do kick tail, but I've only played them against AI. I suspect that they'd have serious problems against an astute human opponent. Actually, I played one MP game, two-player, as Believers vs. Spartans, and almost lost. In fact, I would've lost entirely if I hadn't managed to steal D:AP just when he discovered it. But if he'd had just a little more defensive awareness about probe teams, I'd've been sunk.

But let me add two cents for the poor Morgans. As long as you can avoid getting in fights early on, Morgan can be really fun. He's hard to play, but when you get the hang of it, it's just great to have all that cash!

But I wonder if I can bring up another question, which I thought the thread was about before I read it: what is everybody's favorite combination of opponents? I'm assuming SMACX, of course. I haven't played it extensively enough to have an opinion myself, but I wonder what others think? Has anybody tried it with an all-warlike mix, or an all-builder mix? Can you even make an all-builder mix, let's see... UoP, PK, Morgan, Consciousness, Data Angels, and... uh... well, I guess you can't make a strictly-builder-type game. I guess you'd have to add Deirdre, who can be pacifistic. Anyway, what are people's thoughts on the matter?

mark13 · November 1, 2000, 06:05

Mis,

I regard the Gaians as being a faction for novices, as many of their advantages are 'there' rather than needing to be made use of. In this way, the +2 efficiency can be a huge boost, however, other factions' efficiency can be gotten over easily enough with planning (and not planned, granted

).

However, to say that they are a good builder faction would be erroneous, in my view: no free market. This is a massive disadvantage, especially in the large bases they have to maintain....

The PKs strength lie in two little words: Planetary Governor. +1 commerce helps the building no end, and the infiltration gives you information on pretty much everything that goes on in the game. This means they can be a successful builder, and warmonger alike. They are the most versatile faction, which is why, as a Builder/Hybrid, I like them.

Favourite opponents, tricky one, assuming this is an SP game, of course, I would have to go for 4 builders (UoP, Morgan, Consciousness, Data Angels) two aliens, and a nasty faction, such as the Hive or the Believers.

Just let me say something else. I don't like Morgan. Players of ACT021 (and lurkers, of which I hope there were none

) will know why - I have to have some sort of military to be able to survive - which isn't always feasible with Morgan. Oh yeah, and I *hate* the support penalty, because it effectively means you can't run Demo until mid-game, when Clean reactors become available.

RedFred, the Believers can be great fun if they are played right, but not really on a huge world. It does take the fun out of it, seeing as you have to make an inter-continental voyage to get near anyone else.

Edit: Just an addition to my earlier post about the Believers - technology. This is dead easy to get around in an SP - the AI factions are frankly to thick to defend against probes. Against decent MP players, however, they should be taken out every time. Before you say anything Garth, I know you kicked my ass with them, but I did say decent MP players

[This message has been edited by mark13 (edited November 01, 2000).]

Fitz · November 1, 2000, 14:37

HP: I think my favorite SP game was Morgan vs the Aliens, Cult, Spartans, Hive & Believers on a standard world, 30-50% ocean, high erosion, low cloud cover, high native life, blind research, tech stagnation, aggressive opponents, Transcend. Got my butt kicked too.

I think I'm going to try that one again.

Garth Vader · November 1, 2000, 15:46

Yeah Mark, I don't like Morgan either. I like support, that's why I don't like the PK either. If I don't have +2 support I am not happy.

As for the Believers, they depend a LOT on luck and diplomacy. If you can get an ally or good energy terrain early to get the tech for probes, impact, and rovers as early as possible you are laughing! There is nothing like elite, fanatic bonus Believer units.

But if you can't get the good techs early you will be buried. In Act21 I had a hell of a time getting those good early techs I mentioned, and didn't get them until long after the time I had expected to be dead. I was just lucky to be next to peaceful human players

Natan · November 1, 2000, 18:51

I'm new, but I'd like to put in my two cents. I find the Hive is the faction I do best with. The growth and industry bonuses help a lot in the early game, and you can switch to Police state pretty early, avoiding early support problems. Planned is also great, and the free perimeter defense the Hive gets really helps a lot. The only downsides are the economy minus (only bad in that it prevents you from getting +2 econ until very late in the game) and that with Planned/PS, just about everyone hates you.

mark13 · November 2, 2000, 08:21

Natan, I believe there is one very significant factor you have overlooked (or not known about) when playing the Hive - it is virtually impossible to pop boom. Although the +1 growth certainly helps early game - it becomes increasingly ineffective later on due to your inability to go democracy. This means you will have to run Planned, have a Creche and a GA (very diff. with the Hive, due to the -2 econ) to effectively pop boom. This is one of the reasons I can't get on with the Hive, I like to think myself more of a builder than a fighter.
[This message has been edited by mark13 (edited November 02, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by mark13 (edited November 02, 2000).]

Garth Vader · November 2, 2000, 11:48

I have never pop boomed without the vats and I have never had a problem in SP or MP. With a creche the Hive has +5 growth and +3 without. By the time you would be ready to pop boom anyway your bases are plenty big.

Misotu · November 2, 2000, 22:31

quote:

Originally posted by mark13 on 11-01-2000 05:05 AM
I regard the Gaians as being a faction for novices, as many of their advantages are 'there' rather than needing to be made use of. In this way, the +2 efficiency can be a huge boost, however, other factions' efficiency can be gotten over easily enough with planning (and not planned, granted

).

However, to say that they are a good builder faction would be erroneous, in my view: no free market. This is a massive disadvantage, especially in the large bases they have to maintain....

I guess that must be why I like them. During my novice period, I find them easy to play. Never mind. I'll move on to more challenging factions as I gain experience

Never underestimate +2 efficiency. And never underestimate the power of penalty-free Planned. I have mashed FM-running factions as the Gaians without lifting a tentacle. You have been warned

Misotu · November 2, 2000, 22:33

Come to think of it, I guess the PKs must be a faction for novices too - HGP immediately, no hassle. HGP on steroids for the rest of the game, automatically. Double votes - you barely have to lift a finger to get elected. Effortless pop booms. *And* the ability to run FM ...

...

...

yeah I know. Another faction for novices. Guess that's why they're my favourites

mark13 · November 3, 2000, 10:06

Misotu:

OK, so it was a bit of a rash statement

- but you know what I mean. The thing about the PKs is that early-mid game, that efficiency hurts. The Gaians, on the other hand, don't have such a disadvantage - one that calls for extra stability, anyway. I suppose that rather than a faction for novices, you could regard them as a 'no-worries' faction - in that they have no inherent factional disadvantages worth mentioning.

The Morganites, OTOH, I would regard as a challenging faction - only one unit suported free per base, and Hab Complexes above size 4. *But* they have some massive economic advantages - they are an awesome faction if played correctly.
[This message has been edited by mark13 (edited November 03, 2000).]

weird god · November 3, 2000, 10:52

thx again for all your suggestions

i played the gaians and i did well (even though only on 2nd highest level) until midgame. but then all my worms got worthless as the other factions (thx, i didn´t ever thought about bands) started to attack with jets and bombers. i also had big problems with my defence in sea-colonies: whatever unit i built, i got crushed by either jets, rockets or ships (anyone can help?). i got the feeling that the best -and only effective- defence is offence. but all factions were at war with me then, so i had to give up

now i tried the PK. what a faction!! i could destroy, ahem, gaians early and started on a large continent with the monsoon jungle. this rocks

i´ve large cities and easily got planet-governer and it seems -again- i´m gonna win this one, yeah! the only problem i have is my neighbour, the aggresive spartans. plus, i´m not first in technology by now. which are your key-techs?

i know these are a lot of questions though i´m a newbie on AC, but i start to love this game after having it for 2 years now. civ2-mp is that addictive, i didn´t had time for this wonderful game by now.

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mankind made alcohol, god made weed.....whom do you trust?

weird god, chief of EUROPA

mark13 · November 3, 2000, 11:03

No disrespect, but if you start in the Monsoon Jungle any faction rocks....

Key techs?

There are a lot of them, but just to outline.....

Early game:

The first tech you should research, ALWAYS - Centauri Ecology. This gives you Formers, which you *need* from early on....

If you are on the offensive, beeline for Nonlinear Maths - Applied Physics and Information Networks required for that.

If you are a builder, go for Industrial Automation - this gives you crawlers which are critical to your mineral and energy production.

Mid-game: D:AP, for obvious reasons, and Fusion Power, for the fusion reactor. MMI also, for choppers....also, it is a good idea to go for the good armor techs - Silksteel Alloys is the first - the others will come.

After that, I pretty much take it as it comes - I don't have too much late-game experience, so there are people better placed to answer this than me...

Always happy to help - once you feel you are experienced enough you might want to try our PBEM tournament - great fun!

Mark13

VoodooChild · November 3, 2000, 14:40

*slaps Mark13 for missing one of the bigest techs*
Bio. Eng. for the clean special ability (unit requires no support from home base)

Overall it is better to attack than to defend, but reguardless on your playing style or situation you need to know how to defend.

In the early game your biggest threat is going to be worms. Upgrade your garrison units with trace (+50% def vs psi combat) when you get Secrets of the Brain. After Air powers comes available, equip all your garrison units with AAA. These two upgrades will be just about the most important things you can do for -basic- defense.

From mid point on just about anything goes for combat, and you will be faced with all sorts of tactics. Keep playing the game, and test different things and learn from your mistakes.

Some of my rules of thumb are. Use copters to attack not bombers. Use planes (interceptors) to defend. Also don't put armor on aircraft. When two planes meet their armor is their weapon value. The only time armor matters on a plane is if they are the last defender of a base, and you should never allow this to happen, since it almost always ends in the destruction of your vital air assets.

If you are behind in tech or are even but can't produce at the same rate as your opponent, go with PSI units (mindworms etc.) PSI combat uses its own set of rules, and most of that fancy weapons and armor wont mean a thing when going up against a mindworm, so the scales are more even than if you attacked or defended with a regular unit. If you have better weapons and armor, use the advantage to crush your opposition.

mark13 · November 3, 2000, 15:48

To be honest, I don't put that much emphasis on Bio Engineering, although, yes, I should have put it down. One of the reasons may be that I don't play Morgan too often, so I don't get hampered by continuous support problems....

Copters should be used to attack in most cases, although their chronic lack of range is a severe problem - if you have a base within 6 spaces, great - otherwise use needlejets. Unless, of course, you can get a couple of formers closer and get an airbase constructed. But don't put too many resources into this - it is a last resort only! (IMO)

Ogie Oglethorpe · November 3, 2000, 16:41

M13,

No ofense intended but, I have to point out that choppers have much greater utility then a base attacks at ranges of 6 or less. I believe you've fallen into the trap that I used to think of. The thinking is that a choppers must return to base in order to heal any damage every turn.

On the contrary tho', Choppers are best used when they are be considered an expendable asset. Send them out a full turns movement and take the 30% damage then attack the next turn to the far flung enemy bases. If you are inclined to use nerve gas, X-choppers are by far and away the most devestating unit in the game. Much has been written here re: use of X-choppers. I've even coined the phrase chaloopers (reference Taco Bell's Chalupas which yield twice the gas) to define a Nerve/Soporific best weapon chopper.

As a final insult to the enemy faction one should always self destruct a far reaching chopper to further eliminate/destroy remaining enemies.

So keeping that in mind I think conquerers need to consider MMI the end all be all of chassis and that High Energy Chemistry is probably the most important early game conquering tech (allows plasma but more importantly Nerve gas for which there is no real defense)

[This message has been edited by Ogie Oglethorpe (edited November 03, 2000).]

Lefty Scaevola · November 3, 2000, 17:03

. best faction is mostly determined by your preffered style of play and and type victory.

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Gauis Mucius Scaevola
older richer & wiser than you

mark13 · November 3, 2000, 19:45

Og,

Interesting, actually, as I have never send suicide choppers really, maybe I should in MP circles. Although they are easily defended against - less so x-Choppers, but an AAA garrison and an Aerospace Complex and you are pretty much safe - in my experience, anyway. Maybe I am just being naive - I tend to think of myself more of a builder than a conqueror....

Mark13

Natan · November 5, 2000, 09:53

quote:

Originally posted by mark13 on 11-02-2000 07:21 AM
Natan, I believe there is one very significant factor you have overlooked (or not known about) when playing the Hive - it is virtually impossible to pop boom. Although the +1 growth certainly helps early game - it becomes increasingly ineffective later on due to your inability to go democracy. This means you will have to run Planned, have a Creche and a GA (very diff. with the Hive, due to the -2 econ) to effectively pop boom. This is one of the reasons I can't get on with the Hive, I like to think myself more of a builder than a fighter.
[This message has been edited by mark13 (edited November 02, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by mark13 (edited November 02, 2000).]

I've never had a problem with this, although admittedly, I only play SP. But the Hive was the only faction I could win with on transcend. The growth and industry really help early on, they allow you to build many colony pods, and develop a military to grab the best city sites. The ability to run police state and planned without penalty basically doubles your original bonuses, and then adds some. Every other faction I tried on Transcend would get mashed by the Hive, or destroyed very early on.

mark13 · November 5, 2000, 10:28

Natan,
I can understand what you mean, faction preferences depend fully on your playing style. The Hive is a truly devastating momentum faction, although they do suffer from some chronic builder penalties, which makes them a very aggressive faction. The growth and industry does indeed help a lot early on, although the inability to run demo hinders mid-game development, as does the -2 economy. This will mean a technological disadvantage, which can easily be overcome in one of two ways (in SP):

- Use probes to fish out the technology you need
- Overcome the penalty with sheer numbers.

However, against any half-decent human player, you will have difficulties.

Mark13

Natan · November 5, 2000, 14:08

quote:

Originally posted by mark13 on 11-05-2000 09:28 AM
Natan,
I can understand what you mean, faction preferences depend fully on your playing style. The Hive is a truly devastating momentum faction, although they do suffer from some chronic builder penalties, which makes them a very aggressive faction. The growth and industry does indeed help a lot early on, although the inability to run demo hinders mid-game development, as does the -2 economy. This will mean a technological disadvantage, which can easily be overcome in one of two ways (in SP):

- Use probes to fish out the technology you need
- Overcome the penalty with sheer numbers.

However, against any half-decent human player, you will have difficulties.

Mark13

I've found that with enough bases, the Hive can out-research even the University in SP, even on transcend level. If I ever did MP, I would pick a different faction for sure.

Helium Pond · November 5, 2000, 14:53

So, mark13, what would your advice be to some poor human player who just happened to get stuck with the Hive, in case there was some theoretical tournament game in which someone might possibly have gotten that faction?